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Christianity - Being Saved and the Unpardonable Sin

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
joeboonda said:
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font][size=-1][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]...[/font][/size][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]God always welcomes those whose hearts are sensitive toward Him.[/size][/font]
Thank you for this, Joe... I'll try to remember to come back later to frubalize you :cool:

"You have given out too much Karma in the last 24 hours, try again later."
 

wmam

Active Member
Isn't the Holy Spirit an angel? A messenger sent by Yahshua? Or YAH Himself? I say Yahshua first only because YAH gave him control of all the earth and I was only saying that with Our Fathers permission that He does as He does. Oh and if Yahshua can only do things through or by Our Father YAH and if the Spirit is a angel/messenger then here we have 3 separate beings that would most assuredly be of one purpose. Wouldn't you think?
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
wmam said:
Isn't the Holy Spirit an angel? A messenger sent by Yahshua? Or YAH Himself? I say Yahshua first only because YAH gave him control of all the earth and I was only saying that with Our Fathers permission that He does as He does. Oh and if Yahshua can only do things through or by Our Father YAH and if the Spirit is a angel/messenger then here we have 3 separate beings that would most assuredly be of one purpose. Wouldn't you think?
Did you post this in the right thread? :confused:
 

wmam

Active Member
jonny said:
Did you post this in the right thread? :confused:
Why yes............ yes I did. Thank you for asking. Do you have an answer? I was trying to lay a foundation here that of about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I guess my combining the thoughts of Trinity is where I might have thrown you. Being that if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit then by the trinity wouldn't you as well be blaspheming all three? If you where to blaspheme any of them wouldn't you be doing so to all three?

I also was wondering on the other questions that I asked?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
jonny said:
This debate is mainly for Christians, but those who can answer from a Christian perpective are also free to participate.

We learn from the bible that there is only one unpardonable sin - blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. How one defines blasphemy will have an impact on what this means. I believe that one cannot commit blasphemy unless one has knowledge/testimony of the Savior.

That being said, many people believe that someone who does not accept Christ as his or her Savior will be punished to an eternity in Hell (I don't believe in a literal, eternal hell, so I wouldn't put myself in that category). This includes those who have no knowledge of Christ or those who have a perverted belief in Christ.

The problem I have with this is that if there is only one unpardonable sin, and that sin requires a testimony of Christ, how can someone who doesn't believe in Christ or holds perverted beliefs in Christ be damned to Hell for eternity without the mercy of Christ kicking in and saving them first?

Is not accepting Christ as your Savior a sin? If it isn't a sin, why do some believe that the unbeliever will be punished to hell for eternity for something that is not a sin? If it is a sin, does eternal damnation satisfy the balance of justice and mercy that Christ enabled through his atonement?

My thoughts are kind of jumbled right now, so hopefully someone can sort this all out and make an intelligent response.
Jonny,

I interpret the unpardonable sin as saying that the Holy Spirit is evil. Cursing God's holiness is blasphemy. It's not a false teaching or an intellectual misunderstanding of God, but an outright rebellion and slandar of God's work and character. (edit) God will not pardon the slandar of his holy work. IMO there are two ways to deal with this- (1) that this blasphemy must be so serious that a person dies without repentence and they go to hell (2) that God will punish people for this sin even if they go to heaven. I adopt #2.

Some people think that hell is eternal punishment (in duration - burning for all eternity). This belief began with St. Augustine in the forth century and depends upon Plato's doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Many theologians, both ancient and modern, have interpreted the Bible differently, teaching that the punishment of hell is eternal in consequence. That is, those who are judged will be annihilated or destoyed by God for their sins.

Is it a sin to reject Jesus as Savior? Only God can determine that. I have been thinking about that as well, asking myself where the love of God ends. On one hand, I understand how God can be a bit upset that people reject his sacrifice. On the other hand, God gave the sacrifice out of his great love for humanity, so even if people reject Christ why can't they receive his atonement even if they don't think that they need it. After all, who would reject Christ if they had a full knowledge of what would happen to them if they did not receive him (assuming that any type of hell exists and belief in Christ would save).
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
joeboonda said:
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Unpardonable Sin[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I think I've committed the unpardonable sin. How can I know?[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] have talked with Christians and non-Christians who were afraid they had committed the unpardonable sin. Just about everyone had a different understanding of exactly what it was, but they all felt hopeless. Christians who believe they have committed the unpardonable sin have a difficult—if not impossible—time accepting the doctrine of eternal security. This is the main reason we need to deal with the issue.
Hundreds of verses in the Bible promise the forgiveness of our sins, but only one passage refers to an unforgivable sin. Let's examine it to gain insight.
Jesus had healed a demon-possessed man who was blind and could not speak, "so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw" (Matthew 12:22). The multitudes following Jesus began to say, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can He?" They wondered if He was the Messiah.
On the other hand, the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons. Jesus' response to their accusation led Him to conclude what He said in Matthew 12:31-32. In this passage He refers to blasphemy.
The term blasphemy may be defined "defiant irreverence." We would apply the term to such sins as cursing God or willfully degrading things considered holy. In this passage the term refers to the declaration of the Pharisees who had witnessed undeniable evidence that Christ was performing miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet they attributed the miracles to Satan. In the face of irrefutable evidence they ascribed the work of the Holy Spirit to that of Satan.
I agree with a host of biblical scholars that this unique circumstance cannot be duplicated today. The Pharisees had seen proof of Christ's deity. But instead of acknowledging Jehovah God, they attributed the supernatural power to Satan instead of the work of the Holy Spirit.
Christ is not in the world as He was then. Although the Holy Spirit still accomplishes supernatural things through His servants, they are merely representatives of the King. The circumstances of Matthew 12 make it impossible for this sin to take place today. This incident, I might add, is the only one in which a sin is declared unforgivable. The Bible states, "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13). No invitation to salvation carries with it an exception clause, "unless you have committed the unpardonable sin."
No matter how evil our sins, there is pardon for them. God forgave David for his adultery, dishonesty, and murder (2 Samuel 12:13, Psalm 51). Simon Peter's denial of our Lord accompanied by profanity was forgiven (Matthew 26:74-75). The apostle Paul was forgiven of his preconversion merciless persecution of Christians (Acts 9:1). Just about every possible sin is listed somewhere in the New Testament. And every one of them falls into the category of forgivable.
[/size][/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Although there is no unpardonable sin today, there is an unpardonable state—the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief. The Bible refers to this in terms of having a hard heart. The hardening of the heart is not a one-time act. It is the result of a gradual progression in which sin and the conviction of the Holy Spirit are ignored. The hardened heart has no desire for the things of God. But if you have a desire in your heart for God, as expressed through concern that you have committed some sort of unpardonable sin, you do not have a hardened heart. Your concern confirms your innocence. God always welcomes those whose hearts are sensitive toward Him.
On the other hand, if you are unsaved, that can be remedied this very moment. Salvation is by faith alone—faith in the death of Christ for your sin. You can place your faith in Christ by praying a simple prayer expressing trust in Christ alone for the payment of your sin. Acknowledge you sin, accept Christ's payment, receive His forgiveness, and thank Him for the gift of eternal life.[/size][/font]
http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/exploring/bible_says/single_questions/unpardonable_129541.html
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
wmam said:
Why yes............ yes I did. Thank you for asking. Do you have an answer? I was trying to lay a foundation here that of about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I guess my combining the thoughts of Trinity is where I might have thrown you. Being that if you blaspheme the Holy Spirit then by the trinity wouldn't you as well be blaspheming all three? If you where to blaspheme any of them wouldn't you be doing so to all three?

I also was wondering on the other questions that I asked?
Now that I understand where you're going the post makes more sense. :D

I don't believe in the trinity. I believe that God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are seperate beings. Most people here already know that, but we haven't had the discussion yet so you wouldn't know.

That being said, rejection of one is probably rejection of them all in a way. It's an interesting point. Thanks for bringing it up.
 

wmam

Active Member
jonny said:
Now that I understand where you're going the post makes more sense. :D

I don't believe in the trinity. I believe that God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are seperate beings. Most people here already know that, but we haven't had the discussion yet so you wouldn't know.

That being said, rejection of one is probably rejection of them all in a way. It's an interesting point. Thanks for bringing it up.
I also do not believe in the trinity. I believe that YAH is YAH and YAHshua is YAHshua and that the Holy Spirit is a malak (messenger) that is sent to us to guide and teach us the True Way.

In any case I just thought it interesting is all and thought I might ask.
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
jonny said:
I don't believe in the trinity. I believe that God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are seperate beings.
Do you believe that Father God, Jesus Son and the Holy Ghost are all God?
If so, since you also say they are all three seperate "beings" rather than all three are one and the same God, that there are three seperate Gods?

Just trying to understand what your church is teaching...
 

jonny

Well-Known Member
StewpidLoser said:
Do you believe that Father God, Jesus Son and the Holy Ghost are all God?
If so, since you also say they are all three seperate "beings" rather than all three are one and the same God, that there are three seperate Gods?

Just trying to understand what your church is teaching...
Yes, we believe that they are all God, but we don't believe they are of the same substance. We believe that they are one in purpose though.
 

Snowbear

Nita Okhata
jonny said:
Yes, we believe that they are all God, but we don't believe they are of the same substance. We believe that they are one in purpose though.
So to clarify, since it seems I'm kinda dense and do not want to assume I am understanding something in a way that is not really what you believe... are you saying the Father God, Jesus Son and Holy Ghost are three seperateGods (though all with the same purpose)?
 

wmam

Active Member
StewpidLoser said:
Do you believe that Father God, Jesus Son and the Holy Ghost are all God?
If so, since you also say they are all three seperate "beings" rather than all three are one and the same God, that there are three seperate Gods?

Just trying to understand what your church is teaching...
First, I do not go to church. No need to apologize since you didn't no that we do not use names of things that have pagan backgrounds if we find them out. We believe exactly what the Scripture tells us with the guidance of that set-apart messenger. It says that YAH is one. YAHshua said that YAH is in Him and that He was in YAH speaking of one mind and purpose. I believe that what some call the holy spirit is a Malak/messenger that reveals to us what he has seen and heard from the one that sent him. Now YAHshua could have sent him but, as YAHshua has already stated that, He only does the will of His Father. Without YAH's permission or Truth I don't believe anything can be done. Does the Scriptures state YAH the Father, YAH the Son and YAH the Holy Spirit? I don't think so and I further believe that it is just some mumbo jumbo that man has dreamed up with the (albeit possible unknowing) help from satan to further confuse the masses. Thanks about it this way............. Does it really matter? I mean does it really matter whether there is or isn't a trinity? Does having the answer to something like that, that cannot be found anywhere in the Scripture have any thing to do with you being saved or not? Why do we waste our time looking into such trivial matters and not spending more time doing what YAH commanded us to do? Who knows.
 
jonny said:
Ok. Do you believe acceptance of Christ is necessary for salvation?
Yes, I do believe thus.

Also, I believe there are special circumstances where God will waive that requirement such as with the mentally ill or those people who have never had the chance to hear His Word.
 

wmam

Active Member
StewpidLoser said:
The post of mine that you quoted was a direct question to jonny.... but thanks for the answer from your perspective as well ;)

LOL ......... Then I owe you an apology. LOL ......... Sometimes these threads all run together. LOL ;)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Searcher of Light said:
Yes, I do believe thus.

Also, I believe there are special circumstances where God will waive that requirement such as with the mentally ill or those people who have never had the chance to hear His Word.
Those "special circumstances" are going to have to be applied to a whole lot of people. Furthermore, I'm not aware of anywhere in the Bible where situations such as the one you describe are addressed. So how do you get around the dilemma...

1. One must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved.
2. Billions have died without so much as hearing His name.
3. God is both merciful and just.
 
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