Christianity - Being Saved and the Unpardonable Sin

[jonny]

OK, I'll try again... the person who once *knew* the divinity of Christ (thus believed and had faith) through whatever means and walked away will not be forgiven if she returns to him?

I don't know. I posted everything I believe on the subject in the last post. I really can't make judgments one way or another. I believe Christ is merciful and just and judges accordingly.

I would add that I believe they have to be intentionally misleading people from what they *know* to be true.

 

[Snowbear]

I don't know. I posted everything I believe on the subject in the last post. I really can't make judgments one way or another. I believe Christ is merciful and just and judges accordingly.

I would add that I believe they have to be intentionally misleading people from what they *know* to be true.

OK. By your beliefs I am screwed....

 

[Searcher of Light]

That's an interesting way to think about it. Thanks!

What are your thoughts on whether or not a lack or belief is a sin? If it isn't, do you believe we can be sent to Hell for things that are not sins?

First, I believe it is up to God to decide.

That said: no, i dont believe lack of belief is a sin but only when a person has never had a chance to believe in the first place. In this sense, they are innocent of sin because they cannot know what sin is other than what their own mores are. In a sense they have never reached the "age of accountability."

Granted, the idea of original sin the Catholics believe would nullify this idea. However, I do not believe in original sin. I agree with the original propensity to sin but not with the idea that people are born already stained with sin.

There is another problem with this view on unbelief not being a sin in this situation. It creates a paradox. Consider a missionary brings the gospel to a tribe that has never known God's Word. Assuming they are not condemned by their ignorance, that missionary would be condemning them by bring the Word to them should they reject it. It would be better if they didnt know about it in this case. Yet, it would be sin for the missionary NOT to teach them. (i understand there is scriptural support stating that ignorance is not equal to salvation. However, I have always read those passages as pertaining to believers already)

 

[jonny]

OK. By your beliefs I am screwed....

No you aren't - at least I don't think you are (and I hope you're not). Let me state this as clear as possible.

My beliefs are that you have to fit into one category to qualify to be Son of Perdition.

1. You have personally seen God and recieved a testimony of him in this life and then rebelled against him.

I kinda believe that there is a second category, but this one I am uncertain about. It isn't taught by the LDS church, but it is a personal belief.

2. You have made covenants with God in an LDS temple and then apostasized from the gospel of Jesus Christ and broke these covenants.

Do you fit into either of these categories?

 

[jonny]

First, I believe it is up to God to decide.

That said: no, i dont believe lack of belief is a sin but only when a person has never had a chance to believe in the first place. In this sense, they are innocent of sin because they cannot know what sin is other than what their own mores are. In a sense they have never reached the "age of accountability."

Granted, the idea of original sin the Catholics believe would nullify this idea. However, I do not believe in original sin. I agree with the original propensity to sin but not with the idea that people are born already stained with sin.

There is another problem with this view on unbelief not being a sin in this situation. It creates a paradox. Consider a missionary brings the gospel to a tribe that has never known God's Word. Assuming they are not condemned by their ignorance, that missionary would be condemning them by bring the Word to them should they reject it. It would be better if they didnt know about it in this case. Yet, it would be sin for the missionary NOT to teach them. (i understand there is scriptural support stating that ignorance is not equal to salvation. However, I have always read those passages as pertaining to believers already)

I agree it is up to God to decide. My views on original sin are similar to yours.

So, what do you believe? What happens with people who die in this life, never believing in Christ, without having an opportunity to believe in Christ? (Most Christians will simply reply that EVERYONE has the opportunity, but I really don't think that is the case).

Do you think they will be condemned to hell -or- can somone be saved without accepting Christ in this life?!?

 

[Snowbear]

No you aren't - at least I don't think you are (and I hope you're not). Let me state this as clear as possible.

My beliefs are that you have to fit into one category to qualify to be Son of Perdition.

1. You have personally seen God and recieved a testimony of him in this life and then rebelled against him.

I kinda believe that there is a second category, but this one I am uncertain about. It isn't taught by the LDS church, but it is a personal belief.

2. You have made covenants with God in an LDS temple and then apostasized from the gospel of Jesus Christ and broke these covenants.

Do you fit into either of these categories?

Yes to the first... though your interpretation of "personally seen God" may well be different from mine. I had see enough evidence of Him that there was no doubt he exists. I had received plenty of testimony of Him in this life, accepted Him as my Savior. I had seen enough to KNOW who He is.

I then rejected Him, turned my back, walked away, blasphemed the Holy Spirit and told others that He did not exist.

As for the second, I have never been a mormon, though I had made covenants with God and broke them. I'm not really sure what you mean by apostasized, though. If I did, I probably vroke those covenants as well. My rejection of Him was complete and defiant. I accepted that if there was such a place, I was going to hell for it and didn't care.

After almost 20 years of this, I returned. This prodigal daughter believes that He can and DOES forgive me for all of that since I am sincere in repenting of those sin and have sincerely and completely accepted Him as my Savior.

 

[Katzpur]

StewpidLoser,

You know, it really sounds as if you're actually trying to get one of us Latter-day Saints to tell you you're going to hell. Somehow, I don't think you're going to find any of us willing to do that, because I don't think any of us believe that's the case.

Kathryn

 

[Snowbear]

StewpidLoser,

You know, it really sounds as if you're actually trying to get one of us Latter-day Saints to tell you you're going to hell. Somehow, I don't think you're going to find any of us willing to do that, because I don't think any of us believe that's the case.

If you had actually read my posts in this thread, you would have seen that my first one was a response to fromtheheart, who AFAIK does not claim LDS membership. Jonny picked up the conversation so that's whi I continued it with. His religious affiliation was not the issue, the statements he was making were. He (and others) made statements that applied on a very personal level to me. I was clarifying his individual beliefs and from what he's said about what he believes, I have committed the unpardonable sin.

YOU are the one who seems to think I have a vendetta against LDS members and against you. I didn't and I don't. You have tried to tell me several times that I'm the one with the problem because I disagree with some disrespectful things you've posted. Yet somehow you are the one attacking me and my posts as you have done in this post.

I realize I'm a crappy communicator, but where in this thread have I been impolite or disrespectful?? All I did was try to draw out what someone was saying that applied directly and personally to me.

 

[jonny]

Yes to the first... though your interpretation of "personally seen God" may well be different from mine. I had see enough evidence of Him that there was no doubt he exists. I had received plenty of testimony of Him in this life, accepted Him as my Savior. I had seen enough to KNOW who He is.

Our interpretation is probably different. Have you seen Christ in the flesh? That's what I'm referring to when I say "personally seen God."

I really don't know your heart, but I don't believe that someone who commits blasphemy to the degree that I believe it must be committed to be unpardonable could ever come back. That's why I am quick to reject the idea that the unpardonable sin could apply to you.

 

[Snowbear]

Our interpretation is probably different. Have you seen Christ in the flesh? That's what I'm referring to when I say "personally seen God."

No. I'm old, but not that old

I really don't know your heart, but I don't believe that someone who commits blasphemy to the degree that I believe it must be committed to be unpardonable could ever come back. That's why I am quick to reject the idea that the unpardonable sin could apply to you.

I guess I'm still not clear on your belief of the "degree" of blasphemy that makes it unpardonable.... where in the Bible (or your non-biblical scriptures if you prefer) does the "degree" of blasphemy determine whether this unpardonable sin is forgivable?

My point is that I once was a Christian in every sense of the term... salvation was mine and I believed that and knew that. Things happened and I turned my back, walked away, rejected Christ and literally blasphemed God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

1 1/2 years ago, after almost 20 years of rejecting Him, I returned. The "unpardonable sin" was one of the things that I had serious worries about, because it most certainly applied to me.

I now need to believe that with God, anything is possible and that He truly can and does forgive anyone who is sincere in repenting even the worst of sins.

Thanks for the discussion.... ones like this without the personal attacks and accusations so often encountered are refreshing and actually serve to make me read up and reaffirm my beliefs.... Frubals to you

 

[jonny]

I guess I'm still not clear on your belief of the "degree" of blasphemy that makes it unpardonable...

I don't know what degree is required either, but since I believe that Christ is merciful, I think he will accept anyone back into the fold who is truly repentant.

 

[Snowbear]

...since I believe that Christ is merciful, I think he will accept anyone back into the fold who is truly repentant.

Me too... hence my "prodigal daughter" comment earlier

 

[Snowbear]

Jonny - please clear your PM box.....
"1. jonny has exceeded their stored private messages quota and can not accept further messages until they clear some space."
Thanks

 

[Katzpur]

YOU are the one who seems to think I have a vendetta against LDS members and against you. I didn't and I don't. You have tried to tell me several times that I'm the one with the problem because I disagree with some disrespectful things you've posted. Yet somehow you are the one attacking me and my posts as you have done in this post.

I said nothing about your having a vendetta against anyone. Furthermore, I didn't attack you. I simply stated that the LDS position on your ending up in hell is that it wasn't going to happen. Sorry that offended you. I would have thought that just the opposite would be true.

I realize I'm a crappy communicator, but where in this thread have I been impolite or disrespectful??

Did I say you've been impolite or disrespectful?

 

[Quiddity]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to reject His grace. Not allowing the Holy Spirit to work in our lives is blasphemy: It is saying "I know more than God does about what is right for me" which takes away the principle which makes it possible to ask for forgiveness. This manifests itself in four ways: 1) despair concerning the possibility of salvation; 2) presumption of God's mercy and forgiveness; 3) denial of the truths of faith; and 4) final impenitence and refusal to turn to God. Sins against the Holy Spirit are the most grave because they reject the dignity of the One sent by the Father to sanctify us and restore us to full union with Him. Belief that if anyone fails to be open to the workings of the Holy Spirit in their lives, even once, automatically condemns them to Hell forever is not the teaching of this passage in Holy Scripture. This passage addresses the condition of the soul at the moment of death; prior to that moment, every person has the opportunity to turn to God, have their sins forgiven, and be welcomed home like the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32)

 

[jonny]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is to reject His grace. Not allowing the Holy Spirit to work in our lives is blasphemy: It is saying "I know more than God does about what is right for me" which takes away the principle which makes it possible to ask for forgiveness. This manifests itself in four ways: 1) despair concerning the possibility of salvation; 2) presumption of God's mercy and forgiveness; 3) denial of the truths of faith; and 4) final impenitence and refusal to turn to God. Sins against the Holy Spirit are the most grave because they reject the dignity of the One sent by the Father to sanctify us and restore us to full union with Him. Belief that if anyone fails to be open to the workings of the Holy Spirit in their lives, even once, automatically condemns them to Hell forever is not the teaching of this passage in Holy Scripture. This passage addresses the condition of the soul at the moment of death; prior to that moment, every person has the opportunity to turn to God, have their sins forgiven, and be welcomed home like the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32)

Are you saying that I can do what's right and be faithful my entire life, but if my last thought is worry that I didn't so enough or doubt I'm screwed (or should I say damned)? I just want to make sure I understand your position.

 

[Quiddity]

Are you saying that I can do what's right and be faithful my entire life, but if my last thought is worry that I didn't so enough or doubt I'm screwed (or should I say damned)? I just want to make sure I understand your position.

No it's not. A person seeking God in love and sincerety is difficult for them to go to hell. It all depends on whether they are in Grace or not. A person who has the committed the sin of blasphemy has rejected Grace and God all together. It's not a matter of lack of faith or evidence or what have you, it's simply they flat out don't want a relationship with God. Satan is a perfect example of him committing this sin.

~Victor

 

[Searcher of Light]

No it's not. A person seeking God in love and sincerety is difficult for them to go to hell. It all depends on whether they are in Grace or not. A person who has the committed the sin of blasphemy has rejected Grace and God all together. It's not a matter of lack of faith or evidence or what have you, it's simply they flat out don't want a relationship with God. Satan is a perfect example of him committing this sin.

~Victor

With you there, Victor.

So, what do you believe? What happens with people who die in this life, never believing in Christ, without having an opportunity to believe in Christ? (Most Christians will simply reply that EVERYONE has the opportunity, but I really don't think that is the case).

Do you think they will be condemned to hell -or- can somone be saved without accepting Christ in this life?!?

Personally, I dont believe God would condemn someone to hell for doing "wrongs" they do not know are wrong. If they have had the opportunity to do His Will that is different. But if they never had the chance to hear the Gospel, I cannot see how God could condemn a person for only acting on the only moral and spiritual guidelines they have access to. I can see Him condemning a person who does not follow those moral guidelines, however.

 

[jonny]

Personally, I dont believe God would condemn someone to hell for doing "wrongs" they do not know are wrong. If they have had the opportunity to do His Will that is different. But if they never had the chance to hear the Gospel, I cannot see how God could condemn a person for only acting on the only moral and spiritual guidelines they have access to. I can see Him condemning a person who does not follow those moral guidelines, however.

Ok. Do you believe acceptance of Christ is necessary for salvation?

 

[joeboonda]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Unpardonable Sin[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I think I've committed the unpardonable sin. How can I know?[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] have talked with Christians and non-Christians who were afraid they had committed the unpardonable sin. Just about everyone had a different understanding of exactly what it was, but they all felt hopeless. Christians who believe they have committed the unpardonable sin have a difficult—if not impossible—time accepting the doctrine of eternal security. This is the main reason we need to deal with the issue.
Hundreds of verses in the Bible promise the forgiveness of our sins, but only one passage refers to an unforgivable sin. Let's examine it to gain insight.
Jesus had healed a demon-possessed man who was blind and could not speak, "so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw" (Matthew 12:22). The multitudes following Jesus began to say, "This man cannot be the Son of David, can He?" They wondered if He was the Messiah.
On the other hand, the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons. Jesus' response to their accusation led Him to conclude what He said in Matthew 12:31-32. In this passage He refers to blasphemy.
The term blasphemy may be defined "defiant irreverence." We would apply the term to such sins as cursing God or willfully degrading things considered holy. In this passage the term refers to the declaration of the Pharisees who had witnessed undeniable evidence that Christ was performing miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet they attributed the miracles to Satan. In the face of irrefutable evidence they ascribed the work of the Holy Spirit to that of Satan.
I agree with a host of biblical scholars that this unique circumstance cannot be duplicated today. The Pharisees had seen proof of Christ's deity. But instead of acknowledging Jehovah God, they attributed the supernatural power to Satan instead of the work of the Holy Spirit.
Christ is not in the world as He was then. Although the Holy Spirit still accomplishes supernatural things through His servants, they are merely representatives of the King. The circumstances of Matthew 12 make it impossible for this sin to take place today. This incident, I might add, is the only one in which a sin is declared unforgivable. The Bible states, "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13). No invitation to salvation carries with it an exception clause, "unless you have committed the unpardonable sin."
No matter how evil our sins, there is pardon for them. God forgave David for his adultery, dishonesty, and murder (2 Samuel 12:13, Psalm 51). Simon Peter's denial of our Lord accompanied by profanity was forgiven (Matthew 26:74-75). The apostle Paul was forgiven of his preconversion merciless persecution of Christians (Acts 9:1). Just about every possible sin is listed somewhere in the New Testament. And every one of them falls into the category of forgivable.
[/size][/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] Although there is no unpardonable sin today, there is an unpardonable state—the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief. The Bible refers to this in terms of having a hard heart. The hardening of the heart is not a one-time act. It is the result of a gradual progression in which sin and the conviction of the Holy Spirit are ignored. The hardened heart has no desire for the things of God. But if you have a desire in your heart for God, as expressed through concern that you have committed some sort of unpardonable sin, you do not have a hardened heart. Your concern confirms your innocence. God always welcomes those whose hearts are sensitive toward Him.
On the other hand, if you are unsaved, that can be remedied this very moment. Salvation is by faith alone—faith in the death of Christ for your sin. You can place your faith in Christ by praying a simple prayer expressing trust in Christ alone for the payment of your sin. Acknowledge you sin, accept Christ's payment, receive His forgiveness, and thank Him for the gift of eternal life.[/size][/font]