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Featured Christianity and Veganism

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by MountainPine, Jul 11, 2016.

  1. Sleeppy

    Sleeppy Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.

    Oct 29, 2011
    I think the message is there in the Eucharist.
  2. MountainPine

    MountainPine Deuteronomy 30:16

    Aug 17, 2013
    Biblical Vegan (see my 'About' info)
    Lakhem (לחם) and lakem (לכם) is not the same word! You are addressing the former and I was addressing the latter. FYI lakhem refers to plant-based food as evidenced by its use in Scripture.

    Quoting pp. 35-36:

    Other words that are translated as “meat” in the KJV signify things other than animal flesh, particularly ‫מנחה‬ (minkhâh, H4503) and ‫לחם‬ (lekhem, H3899). Minkhâh is translated as “meat offering,” though it is easily inferred from Leviticus 6 that it actually refers to a donation or voluntary tribute of grain, so a rendering of ‘meat offering’ is archaic and obsolete to the modern understanding. Lekhem, exemplified by Leviticus 22 here, is defined by Strong’s as “food (for man or beast), especially bread, or grain (for making it) ... bread ... food, fruit, loaf, meat, victuals.” Compare each of these uses to the use of klâh (‘ôklâh) in Chapter 25 to denote plant-foods, just as Genesis 1 employs it to denote garden foods.

    And this is the law of the meat offering [‫מנחה‬, minkhâh]: the sons of Aaron shall offer it before the LORD, before the altar. And he shall take of it his handful, of the flour of the meat offering, and of the oil thereof, and all the frankincense which is upon the meat offering, and shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the LORD. And the remainder thereof shall Aaron and his sons eat: with unleavened bread shall it be eaten in the holy place; in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation they shall eat it. It shall not be baken with leaven. I have given it unto them for their portion of my offerings made by fire; it is most holy, as is the sin offering, and as the trespass offering. Leviticus 6:14-17

    But if the priest buy any soul with his money, he shall eat of it, and he that is born in his house: they shall eat of his meat [‫לחם‬, lekhem]. Leviticus 22:11

    But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land. And the sabbath of the land shall be meat [‫כלה‬, klâh] for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee, And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat [‫כלה‬, klâh]. Leviticus 25:4-7

    Who cut up mallows by the bushes, and juniper roots for their meat [‫לחם‬, lekhem]. Job 30:4

    My meat [‫לחם‬, lekhem] also which I gave thee, fine flour, and oil, and honey, wherewith I fed thee, thou hast even set it before them for a sweet savour: and thus it was, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 16:19

    So we see that “meat” in the KJV really has the connotation of ‘daily bread,’ especially considering that it does not just designate bread, but several Hebrew words which are used for different types of food, or whatever is eaten on a daily basis, as well as oils and sweeteners. This is exactly how ‘meat’ was originally understood, before it became associated with flesh (i.e. before flesh was substituted for food as a staple of diet). How it came to be so exclusive when it originally had such a broad meaning, if not because of a trend initiated by meat-eaters who fed their bloodlust to the point that they ceased regarding actual food as actual food, we can only speculate at. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the vocabulary of the English language is not nearly as deficient as it was 400 years ago, and the broadest term for food became associated with flesh, because other foods all already had names but flesh did not, because flesh denotes something which is not food (at least not for herbivores).

    In any case, besides these four, there are a few other Hebrew words which are rendered as “meat” in the KJV. Perhaps the most relevant to us is ‫מאכל‬ (ma’ăkâl, H3978), defined by Strong’s as “an eatable (including provender, flesh and fruit): food, fruit ... meat, victual.” The context of Deuteronomy 20 demonstrates how this “meat” is actually fruit. While it is not used to denote animal flesh in Deuteronomy, it is used to denote human flesh—as food for animals! In contrast, notice also that this word for ‘fruit’ meant not just “meat” to Bible-readers in 1611, but “medicine,” as well.

    Try copy/pasting the Greek version of Genesis 9:3 into any translator online. I guarantee you that the English transliteration you quoted from the LXX is wrong.
    #42 MountainPine, May 29, 2018
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  3. MountainPine

    MountainPine Deuteronomy 30:16

    Aug 17, 2013
    Biblical Vegan (see my 'About' info)
    Ok, so here is my next argument. Sometime during the past year and a half I've been absent, I wrote this article. I figured it would be better to post it here than to start a new thread. In this article, I explain how the sin of adultery entails much more than it is assumed to mean, so here it is:

    [Part 1]
    What is Adultery?

    When God instituted the Ten Commandments, have you ever given thought on why he said “Do not commit adultery” as the 6th commandment, and “Do not covet your neighbor's wife” in the 10th? Why would he repeat himself if they both mean the same thing? It could be assumed that the former is referring to the act and the latter refers to the thought preceding the act, but if this was true, then why did Yahushua say that looking at a woman with lust is adultery rather than covetousness?

    Adultery (or adulteration) means to be mixed with a substitution of one substance for another. In the case of marriage, adultery is to substitute your spouse for another. While the Bible does describe adultery as desecrating one's marriage, 'adultery' doesn't necessarily have this particular meaning in every instance in scripture, especially when used by the Prophets. Adultery has a much broader meaning and we will see how it also refers to idolatry and eating flesh.

    The Bible describes God's relationship with Israel as a marriage—Israel being the bride and God being the husband. Most of the Old Testament records the Israelites breaking their covenant with God by worshiping other gods/idols, and by destroying their racial purity by mixing their bloodlines with the Canaanites and other foreign nations and adopting their ways; forsaking their covenant with Yahweh. This would be considered an adulteration, or an act of adultery.

    [Joshua 23:11-13] “And you shall diligently guard yourselves, to love יהוה your Elohim. But if you do turn back at all, and cling to the remnant of these nations, these that remain among you, and intermarry with them, and go in to them and they to you, know for certain that יהוה your Elohim shall no longer drive these nations out from before you. And they shall be snares and traps to you, and a whip on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which יהוה your Elohim has given you.”

    [Joshua 23:15-16] “And it shall be, that as every good word has come upon you which יהוה your Elohim promised you, so יהוה does bring upon you every evil word, until He has destroyed you from this good land which יהוה your Elohim has given you, when you transgress the covenant of יהוה your Elohim, which He commanded you, and shall go and serve other mighty ones, and bow down to them. And the displeasure of יהוה shall burn against you, and you shall perish quickly from the good land which He has given you.”

    [Judges 2:1-3] And the Messenger of יהוה came up from Gilgal to Bokim, and said, “I led you up from Mitsrayim [Egypt] and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers, and I said, ‘I do not break My covenant with you, and as for you, do not make a covenant with the inhabitants of this land—break down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed My voice. What is this you have done? Therefore I also said, ‘I am not driving them out before you, and they shall be adversaries to you, and their mighty ones shall be a snare to you.’”

    [Judges 3:4-7] And they were to try Yisra’ĕl by them, to know whether they would obey the commands of יהוה, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Mosheh. Thus the children of Yisra’ĕl dwelt in the midst of the Kenaʽanites, the Ḥittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Ḥiwwites, and the Yebusites, and took their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons, and they served their mighty ones. Thus the children of Yisra’ĕl did evil in the eyes of יהוה, and forgot יהוה their Elohim, and served the Baʽals and the Ashĕrahs.

    It is not the mere idea of worshiping another deity that makes God jealous, it is what the act of worshiping the deity entails. According to The Jewish Encyclopedia, sacrifices were meals and meals were sacrifices, and this was certainly always the case.

    As at every meal the Deity was supposed to be present and to claim His own, every meal became a sacrifice, and the killing of the animal a sacrificial act (see I Sam. xiv.); and so strong did this feeling remain, even after the lapse of centuries, that when the Second Temple was destroyed, the rigorists abstained from eating meat on the plea that as the sacrifices had been discontinued, all meat was rendered unfit for food (Tos. Soṭah, end; B. B. 60b).

    The donative character of the Hebrew sacrifices appears also from the material used, which is always something to eat or drink, the common dietary articles of the Israelites. The phrase “food of God” (Lev. xxi. 6, 8, 17, 21; xxii. 25; Ezek. xliv. 7) proves the use for which such offerings were intended; and Ps. l. 13 also reveals this intention
    . The Jewish Encyclopedia
  4. MountainPine

    MountainPine Deuteronomy 30:16

    Aug 17, 2013
    Biblical Vegan (see my 'About' info)
    [Part 2]

    Every time sacrifices were made to these foreign deities, it was always meat. Committing idolatry necessarily meant you were eating meat, and this implication is true when Scripture speaks of idolatry (especially in 1 Corinthians 8), except that nowadays, people's idols are their stomachs and egos rather than statues of wood and stone.

    God did allow meat-eating in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14, however, these meat laws had strict rules. Not only did the Law forbid the consumption of certain animals, such as pigs, but the slaughterings of the “clean” animals had to be performed a certain way. The blood and fat had to be drained, certain organs had to be placed on the altar, eating the blood was forbidden, etc. No meat today, even “Kosher” meat, meets the requirements of the Torah, therefore, no Christian can honestly quote the dietary allowances in Leviticus or Deuteronomy to justify eating meat. The only time meat was ever eaten was when an animal was brought to a priest as a sacrifice, and was never eaten otherwise. Eating it outside the sacrificial system was strictly forbidden as stated in Leviticus 17:2-5.

    The only reason why God ever allowed for meat-eating in the first place is because of the incident in Numbers 11 where God sent quail via the Israelites' demand for meat and forced them to eat it for a month until they became malnourished, stricken with a plague and died as a natural consequence for their insatiable and gluttonous appetites for flesh. They were punished for simply desiring to eat flesh, or craving it. Because the Israelites were stubborn and disobedient, God gave them the laws of sacrifice because of the hardness of their hearts, but even when sacrifices were eaten, it was done sparingly and with restrictions. The Law was written for sinners (1 Timothy 1:9), and, as Paul said, "All is permitted, but not all is profitable." (1 Corinthians 6:12, 10:23) In other words, what God permits isn't necessarily what he desires. The law of sacrifice was not designed to last as all God wanted was for them to obey him and to not sin.

    In the account of Numbers 11, there were two prophets, Eldad and Medad, who were warning people not to eat the meat, which proves that it was never God's will for the Israelites to eat it, but to be vegans. This is also evident in Exodus 16:4 where God said his law was to eat bread (rather than meat), and this was before the Law was given to Moses, and before sacrifice was instituted.

    [Jeremiah 7:21-23] Thus said יהוה of hosts, the Elohim of Yisra’ĕl, “Add your burnt offerings to your slaughterings and eat meat. “For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Mitsrayim [Egypt], about matters of burnt offerings or slaughterings. “But this word I did command them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I shall be your Elohim, and you be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, so that it be well with you.’

    Ultimately the simple command “Thou shall not kill” should be apparent and obvious to those who believe the Bible that a vegan ethic is what God has had in mind all along. God said by obeying to His commands “may you live and that it may be well with you." which means that God made his laws with our best interests at heart. Considering that eating meat causes degenerative diseases, like cancer, is not in our best interests, and is not “well with you.”

    The passage in Deuteronomy 12:20-27 has God granting permission to “eat as much meat as one desires,” but this is not out of the bounds of the restrictions laid out two chapters later (ch.14). The preceding chapters show that veganism is favorable.

    [Deuteronomy 8:6-20] “Therefore you shall guard the commands of יהוה your Elohim, to walk in His ways and to fear Him. For יהוה your Elohim is bringing you into a good land, a land of streams of water, of fountains and springs, that flow out of valleys and hills, a land of wheat and barley, of vines and fig trees and pomegranates, a land of olive oil and honey, a land in which you eat bread without scarcity, in which you do not lack at all, a land whose stones are iron and out of whose hills you dig copper. And you shall eat and be satisfied, and shall bless יהוה your Elohim for the good land which He has given you. Be on guard, lest you forget יהוה your Elohim by not guarding His commands, and His right-rulings, and His laws which I command you today, lest you eat and shall be satisfied, and build lovely houses and shall dwell in them, and your herds and your flocks increase, and your silver and your gold are increased, and all that you have is increased, that your heart then becomes lifted up, and you forget יהוה your Elohim who brought you out of the land of Mitsrayim [Egypt], from the house of bondage, who led you through that great and awesome wilderness—fiery serpents and scorpions and thirst—where there was no water, who brought water for you out of the flinty rock, who fed you in the wilderness with manna, which your fathers did not know, in order to humble you and to try you, to do you good in the end, “you then shall say in your heart, ‘My power and the strength of my hand have made for me this wealth!’ But you shall remember יהוה your Elohim, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, in order to establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is today. And it shall be, if you by any means forget יהוה your Elohim, and follow other mighty ones, and serve them and bow yourself to them, I have warned you this day that you shall certainly perish. Like the nations which יהוה is destroying before you, so you are to perish, because you did not obey the voice of יהוה your Elohim.”

    [Deuteronomy 11:13-17] “‘And it shall be that if you diligently obey My commands which I command you today, to love יהוה your Elohim and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your being, then I shall give you the rain for your land in its season, the early rain and the latter rain, and you shall gather in your grain, and your new wine, and your oil. And I shall give grass in your fields for your livestock, and you shall eat and be satisfied. Guard yourselves, lest your heart be deceived, and you turn aside and serve other mighty ones and bow down to them. Then the displeasure of יהוה shall burn against you, and He shall shut up the heavens, and there be no rain, and the land not give its increase. And you shall perish quickly from the good land which יהוה is giving you.’”

    Deuteronomy 12:20 was a permit for sinners who were unwilling to obey God in full, but anyone who is righteous would apply the spirit of the Law and “do what is good and right in the eyes of Yahweh” (Deut. 12:28). In other words, obey your conscience. Eating meat in never done according to anyone’s conscience. Think about the meaning of the command “You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 22:39). The Earth is our home. We share it with the animals who live here. They are not only our neighbors, but our house mates. Therefore, killing them would be breaking God's law.

    The sacrificial system was not designed to last. The idea of the Law was to point the Israelites to the path of righteousness and its goal was to make them righteous and perfect in the eyes of God to where sacrifices were no longer needed. Instead, the Israelites went the opposite direction. After Joshua passed away, the Israelites decided to sin against God and sacrifice to idols from the beginning of the Judges period up until the Babylonian exile. Their cravings for meat got worse, as not only they wanted to eat it without restrictions and regulations, but to eat human flesh too. Sacrificing to Ba'al consisted of killing and eating children.

    [2 Kings 17:16-17] And they left all the commands of יהוה their Elohim, and made for themselves a moulded image, two calves, and made an Ashĕrah and bowed themselves to all the host of the heavens, and served Ba‛al, and caused their sons and daughters to pass through the fire, and practised divination and sorcery, and sold themselves to do evil in the eyes of יהוה, to provoke Him.

    [Psalm 106:37-38] And they slaughtered their sons and their daughters to demons, and they shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they offered to the idols of Kena‛an; and the land was defiled with blood.

    [Jeremiah 7:31] And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

    [Jeremiah 19:4-5] “Because they have forsaken Me and have profaned this place, and have burned incense in it to other mighty ones whom neither they, their fathers, nor the sovereigns of Yehudah have known, and they have filled this place with the blood of the innocents, and have built the high places of Ba‛al, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Ba‛al, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into My heart.

    Israel became so defiled in idolatry and bloodshed which is why God divorced her. Israel proved herself to be an unfaithful wife through approximately 750 years of adultery and had refused to listen to the admonitions of numerous prophets in order to repent and obey God and His Law. The 700+ years of generations of Israelites were possessed by the same spirit that possessed their ancestors in Numbers 11, and no permanent repentance was ever made.

    [Jeremiah 3:6-9] And יהוה said to me in the days of Yoshiyahu the sovereign, “Have you seen what backsliding Yisra’ĕl has done? She has gone up on every high mountain and under every green tree, and there committed whoring. And after she had done all these, I said ‘Return to Me.’ But she did not return. And her treacherous sister Yehudah saw it. And I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Yisra’ĕl had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Yehudah did not fear, but went and committed whoring too. And it came to be, through her frivolous whoring, that she defiled the land and committed adultery with stones [altars] and wood [idols/kindling].”

    [Jeremiah 16:10-12] “And it shall be, when you declare to this people all these words, and they shall say to you, ‘Why has יהוה pronounced all this great evil against us? And what is our crookedness, and what is our sin that we have committed against יהוה our Elohim?’ then you shall say to them, ‘Because your fathers have forsaken Me,’ declares יהוה, ‘and have walked after other mighty ones and served them and bowed themselves to them, and have forsaken Me, and did not guard My Torah. And you have done more evil than your fathers, for look, each one walks according to the stubbornness of his own evil heart, without listening to Me.’”

    [Jeremiah 18:15-16] “But My people have forgotten Me, they have burned incense to what is false, and they have stumbled from their ways, from the ancient paths, to walk in bypaths and not on a highway, to make their land become a ruin, a hissing forever—everyone who passes by it is appalled and shakes his head.”
  5. MountainPine

    MountainPine Deuteronomy 30:16

    Aug 17, 2013
    Biblical Vegan (see my 'About' info)
    [Part 3]

    In Scripture, to commit adultery, or to whore (or fornicate), is to become defiled, and the terms are used interchangeably. Eating meat, or even coming into contact with dead flesh made one defiled. Again, worshiping an idol necessarily meant you were eating meat. With all this in mind, take a look at what God had to say to Israel through his prophets.

    [Ezekiel 16:38] “And I shall judge you with judgments of adulteresses and shedders of blood. And I shall bring on you the blood of wrath and jealousy.”

    [Ezekiel 23:28-30] “For thus said the Master יהוה, ‘See, I am giving you into the hand of those whom you hate, into the hand of those from whom your being turned in disgust. And they shall deal with you in hatred, and they shall take away all you have worked for, and they shall leave you naked and bare. And the nakedness [sins] of your whorings shall be uncovered, and the wickedness of your whorings. I do this to you because of your whoring after the gentiles, because you have been defiled by their idols.’”

    [Ezekiel 23:36-37] And יהוה said to me, “Son of man, judge Oholah [‘her tent,’ i.e. the temple at Mt. Gerizim, or Israel] and Oholibah [‘my tent is in her,’ i.e. the Temple of Solomon, or Judah]! And declare to them their abominations. For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands. And they have committed adultery with their idols, and even offered their sons whom they bore to Me, passing them through the fire, to devour.”

    [Ezekiel 23:45] “But let righteous men judge them with the judgment of adulteresses, and the judgment of women [sinners] who shed blood, for they are adulteresses, and blood is on their hands.”

    [Isaiah 1:10-15,21] Hear the word of יהוה, you rulers of Sedom; give ear to the Torah of our Elohim, you people of Amorah! “Of what use to Me are your many slaughterings?” declares יהוה. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts. I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs or goats. When you come to appear before Me, who has required this from your hand, to trample My courtyards? Stop bringing futile offerings, incense, it is an abomination to Me. New Moons, Sabbaths, the calling of meetings—I am unable to bear unrighteousness and assembly. My being hates your New Moons and your appointed times, they are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. And when you spread out your hands, I hide My eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I do not hear. Your hands have become filled with blood. How the steadfast city has become a whore! I have filled it with right-ruling; righteousness lodged in it, but now murderers.

    [Isaiah 57:3-7] “But come here, you sons of the sorceress, you offspring of the adulterer and the whore! Against whom are you sporting? Against whom do you make a wide mouth and stick out the tongue? Are you not children of transgression, offspring of falsehood, being inflamed with mighty ones under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys, under the clefts of the rocks? Among the smooth stones of the stream is your portion; they, they, are your lot! Also to them you have poured a drink offering, you have offered a grain offering. Am I comforted in these? On a high and lofty mountain you have set your bed. There, too, you went up to make an offering.”

    [Jeremiah 13:24-27] “So I shall scatter them like stubble that passes away by the wind of the wilderness. This is your lot, your measured portion from Me,” declares יהוה, “because you have forgotten Me, and trust in falsehood. I shall even draw your skirts over your face, and your shame shall be seen, your adulteries and your neighings, the wickedness of your whoring! I have seen your abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe to you, O Yerushalayim! How long before you would be made clean?”

    [Jeremiah 23:10-11] For the land is filled with adulterers; for the land mourns because of a curse. The pastures of the wilderness are dried up. And their course is evil, and their might is not right. “For both prophet and priest have become defiled. Even in My house I have found their evil,” declares יהוה.

    [Hosea 4:2-3] “Swearing, and lying, and murdering, and stealing, and committing adultery have increased. And bloodshed follows bloodshed. Therefore the land mourns, and everyone living there languishes, with the beasts of the field and the birds of the heavens. And the fish of the sea are taken away.”

    [Hosea 4:7-13] “As they were increased, so they sinned against Me. My esteem they have changed into shame. They eat the sin of My people, and lift up their desire to their crookedness. And it shall be: like people, like priest. And I shall punish them for their ways, and reward them for their deeds. And they shall eat but not be satisfied, they shall whore but not increase, for they have stopped obeying יהוה. Whoring, and wine, and new wine enslave the heart. My people ask from their Wood, and their Staff declares to them. For a spirit of whorings has led them astray, and they went whoring from under their Elohim. They slaughter on the mountaintops, and burn incense on the hills, under oak and poplars and terebinth, because its shade is good. Therefore your daughters commit whoring, and your brides commit adultery.”

    [Hosea 6:5-11] “Therefore I have hewn them by the prophets, I have slain them by the words of My mouth. And my right-rulings break forth as the light. For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings. But like Adam they transgressed the covenant. There they acted treacherously against Me. Gilʽad is a city of workers of wickedness—tracked up with blood. And as bands of robbers lie in wait for a man, so the company of priests murder on the way to Shekem, for they have done wickedness. I have seen a horrible matter in the house of Yisra’ĕl: the whoring of Ephrayim is there, Yisra’ĕl is defiled. Also, a harvest is appointed for you, O Yehudah, when I turn back the captivity of My people.”

    [Nahum 3:1-5] Woe to the city of blood! All of it is a lie, filled with plunder, the prey is not lacking. The sound of a whip and the sound of rattling wheels, of galloping horses, of jolting chariots, mounted horsemen with bright sword and glittering spear, and many wounded, and a mass of dead bodies, and no end of corpses, they stumble over the corpses—because of the many whorings of the well-favoured whore, the mistress of sorceries, who sells nations by her whorings, and clans by her sorceries. “See, I am against you,” declares יהוה of hosts, “and shall lift up your skirts over your face, and shall show nations your nakedness [sin], and reigns your shame.”

    [Haggai 2:11-14] “Thus said יהוה of hosts, ‘Now, ask the priests concerning the Torah, saying, “If one bears set-apart meat in the fold of his garment, and with the edge he touches bread or stew, or wine or oil, or any food, is it set-apart?”’” And the priests answered and said, “No.” And Ḥaggai said, “If someone defiled by a dead body touches any of these, is it defiled?” And the priests answered and said, “It is defiled.” And Ḥaggai answered and said, “‘So is this people, and so is this nation before Me,’ declares יהוה, ‘and so is every work of their hands. And whatever they bring near there is defiled.’”

    [2 Kings 23:13] And the sovereign defiled the high places that were before Yerushalayim, which were on the right hand of the Mountain of Destruction, which Shelomoh sovereign of Yisra’ĕl built for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Tsidonians, and for Kemosh the abomination of the Mo’abites, and for Milkom the abomination of the children of Ammon.

    Here, we see the Prophets testifying that God hates sacrifices (which necessarily means all slaughter).:

    [Jeremiah 6:20] “What need have I of frankincense from Sheba, and sweet cane from a distant land? Your burnt offerings are not acceptable, and your slaughterings have not been sweet to Me.”

    [Hosea 6:6-8] “For I delight in kindness and not slaughtering, and in the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings. But like Adam they transgressed the covenant. There they acted treacherously against Me. Gil‛ad is a city of workers of wickedness – tracked up with blood.

    [Hosea 12:11] Is Gilʽad wicked? Certainly, they have been false! In Gilgal they have offered bulls. Also their altars are as heaps on a ploughed field.

    [Amos 4:4-6] “Come to Bĕyth Ěl and transgress, to Gilgal, increase transgression. And bring your slaughterings every morning, your tithes every three days. And burn an offering of thanksgiving with leaven, proclaim voluntary offerings, loudly. For you have loved this, you children of Yisra’ĕl!” declares the Master יהוה. “And I also gave you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and lack of bread in all your places. But you did not turn back to Me,” declares יהוה.

    [Amos 5:21-24] “I have hated, I have despised your festivals, and I am not pleased with your assemblies. Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I do not accept them, nor do I look on your fattened peace offerings. Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I do not hear the sound of your stringed instruments. And let right-ruling roll on like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

    [Malachi 1:6-8] “A son esteems his father, and a servant his master. And if I am the Father, where is My esteem? And if I am a Master, where is My fear? said יהוה of hosts to you priests who despise My Name. But you asked, ‘In what way have we despised Your Name?’ You are presenting defiled food on My altar. But you asked, ‘In what way have we defiled You?’ Because you say, ‘The table of יהוה is despicable.’ And when you present the blind as a slaughtering, is it not evil? And when you present the lame and sick, is it not evil? Bring it then to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you favourably?” said יהוה of hosts.

    [Isaiah 61:8] “For I, יהוה, love right-ruling; I hate robbery for burnt offering. And I shall give their reward in truth, and make an everlasting covenant with them.”
  6. MountainPine

    MountainPine Deuteronomy 30:16

    Aug 17, 2013
    Biblical Vegan (see my 'About' info)
    [Part 4]

    In Acts 15, we see the apostles using the term “whoring” in the same context used by the prophets (also translated as “fornication” in the KJV, or “sexual immorality” in other translations).

    [Acts 15:13-21] And after they were silent, Yaʽaqob [James] answered, saying, “Men, brothers, listen to me: Shimʽon [Peter] has declared how Elohim first visited the gentiles to take out of them a people for His Name. And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it has been written: ‘After this I shall return and rebuild the Booth of Dawid which has fallen down. And I shall rebuild its ruins, and I shall set it up, so that the remnant of mankind shall seek יהוה, even all the gentiles on whom My Name has been called, says יהוה who is doing all this,’ who has made this known from of old. Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the gentiles who are turning to Elohim, but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of idols, and from whoring, and from what is strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him—being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”

    It can clearly be seen that the apostles were commanding the Gentile converts to not eat meat. It doesn't make any sense to assume that the issue of sexual immorality is being thrown in there while the other abstinences pertain to slaughter due to the lack of relevance. The only logical interpretation is that “whoring/fornication” is being used synonymously with meat-eating.

    Christians call the dispute in Acts 15 the “Council of Jerusalem” and think it was over circumcision. Circumcision is actually an Abrahamic covenant rather than a Mosaic one, but Christians believe that the apostles have decided that Gentiles (and themselves) don't have to follow the Law of Moses or the Covenant of Abraham, while ignoring the real issue.

    To the contrary, the apostles are upholding the law, and telling the Gentiles to do so as well. Blood and strangled animals are all unclean under the Law, and so was idolatry and whoring. The problem was whether or not to welcome the Gentiles into the community of believers because they did not already follow the Law of Moses. The solution was that they didn't need to follow the Law in letter, but in spirit—by becoming vegans permanently, which is what Moses would have wanted (Numbers 11:29) and what God has wanted from the beginning (Genesis 1:29).

    Abstinence from meat was so important to the apostles that they wanted to enforce it on all believers. Circumcision was only important to identify Israelites, and the Gentiles didn't need to practice it—at least not as an initiation requirement. This is why the apostles just commanded the Gentiles to abstain from meat rather than discussing circumcision at all.

    It is evident that the first Christians were vegans, which necessarily means Christ himself was a vegan. After all, Yahushua upheld, obeyed, taught from and represented the Law and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17-19). He indeed lived in the spirit of the law, and to say that he wasn't a vegan, or at least a vegetarian, is to say he didn't fulfill the Law and to call his entire ministry a lie (which Christians ignore anyway and only focus on his death).

    One could ask “Then why did Yahushua serve fish to the multitudes?” There are many theories concerning this. It is said by an article at thenazareneway.com that some scholars believe that ichthys should be translated as “fish weed” rather than “fish.” The account could be esoteric too, having a symbolic meaning. The five loaves could represent the five books of the Pentateuch (the Law), the two fish representing the Two Witnesses: heaven and earth, and the twelve baskets of leftovers symbolizing the twelve tribes of Israel. Of course, this is speculation. I'm not saying this is how I see it. Even if you want to interpret it literally, there is no evidence that Yahushua himself ate the fish in the account, and perhaps he fed the people fish for survival purposes, in which God makes an exception, and the only one (see 1 Kings 17:6).

    There are discrepancies between this account, though, in all four gospels. There are actually two of these “miracles”, the feeding of 5000 and that of 4000. The latter doesn't even appear in Luke and John. The former account in the Synoptic Gospels record Yahushua asking the disciples to provide the meal, whereas John records a boy supplying the meal, and is more specific in describing the bread as barley loaves. I am of the opinion that the Gospels have been desecrated, and that ichthys is a mistranslation, a replacement for something else, or is code for something only known to the apostles and the Essenes.

    There are two accounts in the Bible where it records Yahushua actually eating fish. The first one is in Luke 24:41-43. My own take on this passage is that it is a forgery. I've established that Luke is a perversion of the Gospel in the Table of the Synoptic Gospels on my website. Luke records the eleven apostles being in Jerusalem at the time Yahushua appeared to them and ate the fish. Matthew and Mark, however, record Yahushua saying that he'll meet them in Galilee after his resurrection. This alone proves that Luke is a forgery.

    John 21:1-14 is the second passage where Yahushua supposedly eats fish, even though it doesn't specifically say he ate it. The passage is a contradiction to Matthew 4:19 and Mark 1:17 where Yahushua tells his disciples to become “fishers of men” (the implication being that they stop eating meat). Only the Gospel of John records Yahushua appearing to the apostles a third time. John comes to a close in chapter 20, and then an addition follows it (ch. 21), and the last verses in the two chapters are nearly the same, and not to mention that the second half of the chapter justifies Papal supremacy. Clearly the 21st chapter of John is a forgery and doesn't belong in the Gospel.

    Yahushua was a Nazarite, and his teachings and practices were of the prophetic tradition known as the Order of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5:10), and all the prophets were Nazarites, and, thus, vegans. Nazarites were forbidden to approach dead bodies (Numbers 6:6), and this especially meant they were forbidden from putting a dead body into their mouths. That the prophets were vegans can be evidenced by all the above scripture (also see 2 Kings 4:38-41). If God says through the Law and the Prophets that eating meat is wrong, then it necessarily implies that Yahushua had to be a vegan since he represented the Law and the Prophets and was the son of a god who hates slaughter. He even destroyed the market in the temple and drove out the moneychangers because they were selling animals for sacrifices. By this, it is evident that he detested slaughter himself, and by his quoting of the prophet Hosea in Matthew 9:13 and 12:7, “I desire mercy and not sacrifice.”

    In conclusion, committing adultery means to adulterate your relationship, whether it be with your spouse or with God. To eat meat is to commit idolatry, to whore, and to “cheat” on God. To eat meat according to the Law's regulations is impossible since the Levitical priesthood is gone. To abstain from meat is to fulfill the Law and to conform to God's will. This concept is not at all difficult to grasp. Only a Christian without a conscience would fail to understand it. Anyone who quotes from the Bible to justify his adultery is no different than the Pharisees whom claimed to follow Moses, but actually forsook the Law for their own traditions and understandings (John 5:46-47, Matthew 15:3), and they are not any different than the apostate Israelites who worshiped Ba'al instead of Yahweh.

    [Proverbs 3:5-7] Trust in יהוה with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; know Him in all your ways, and He makes all your paths straight. Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear יהוה and turn away from evil.
    #46 MountainPine, May 29, 2018
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
  7. e.r.m.

    e.r.m. Church of Christ

    Aug 12, 2011
    Church of Christ
    Luke 24:41-43 and while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” [42] They gave him a piece of broiled fish, [43] and he took it and ate it in their presence.

    He may not have fished, but he sure ate fish.

    John 21:13,15 Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. [15] When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter,...

    And at least some of the Apostles ate bread and fish.
    #47 e.r.m., Jun 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  8. Rise

    Rise Well-Known Member

    Nov 17, 2012
    Your response has no relevance to proving your original claim or countering my argument that disproved your claim.

    Let's backtrack and look at what brought us to this point:

    1. You tried to claim that Lakem is not a real Hebrew word, and was made up and added to the scripture at a later date, in order to change the meaning of Genesis 9:3.

    2. I pointed out that all the evidence we have goes against your claim, and you have not a single piece of evidence backing up your claim. You can't cite a single manuscript or historical fact that would give you any reason to conclude Genesis 9:3 had ever been altered. You can't cite anything linguistically about the Hebrew language that would prove your conclusion true either. The onus is on you as the one making the claim to prove your claim is true, and you can't even begin to do it.

    3. Without that claim being true, the entire basis of your entire argument collapses because Genesis 9:3 plainly contradicts every claim you try to make about what the Bible says about eating meat.

    4. Therefore, it is irrelevant whether or not you're trying to make a point about the words Lechem or Lakem, because Genesis 9:3 uses the word Lakem, and because of that Genesis 9:3 does plainly mean what it is translated to say. And there's no historical or linguistic reason to conclude any other word was ever there besides Lakem. So all your speculation about how the meaning might change with another word there is irrelevant (without the need to even get into whether or not your speculation is linguistically correct or not) unless you can give any reason why we should believe another word ever was there in the first place.

    Your entire argument is based on a made up mental fantasy, not based on any historical, linguistic, or textual evidence. It's a complete fantasy to say Genesis 9:3 must have been changed because you have not a single piece of evidence to suggest it ever was.

    The only reason you conclude it must have been changed is based on circular reasoning. Because you start from the unproven assumption that God couldn't have given man permission to eat meat, therefore you assume Genesis 9:3 must have been changed, without any evidence to that effect. That's fallacious logic.

    So on to what you're claiming now with your latest response:

    First off, some of your confusion is my fault, nor yours. In my last couple replies I wrote Lakhem instead of Lakem. That was a mistake. You can reread everything I wrote as Lakem instead of Lakhem and everything applies.

    I was pointing out that Lakem is a real word, still in use today, and there's nothing historically or linguistically or textually to support your claim that it just appeared one day as an invention to change the meaning of Genesis 9:3. All ancient sources attest to the reading of Genesis 9:3 that we have today.

    But then there's a few issues with what you claim:

    1. לםח is not Lakhem. לםח has as it's consonant letters L, M, and H.
    First, you've got the M and the H backwards. That could just be a typo on your part.
    But the real issue is you're missing the K consonant because there is no "kaf" letter in לםח.
    לָכֶ֥ם (Lakem, as it appears in Genesis 9:3), has the "kaf" letter, כ, which is where you get that K consonant sound.
    The letter "Het" also has more of a CH sound to it being a gutteral H consonant. Which is not the same as a K sound.

    That is why לֶחֶם (which is probably what you meant to spell) is transliterated as "lechem" in Strongs concordance.

    As I explained earlier, the vowels are not written in Hebrew, but that doesn't mean you can start making up consonant sounds that don't exist in the letter. Written Hebrew doesn't work that way.

    2. לֶחֶם is also not "Lakhem". As far as the vowel markers that are used in the Hebrew texts, it's translated as "Lechem" in Strongs concordance for a reason.

    Although you could change "lechem" to "lachem" or "lacham" (all still being L-H-M) by altering the vowel markers, that ultimately doesn't mean or prove anything to your original point because the fact is that "Lechem" (L-H-M) is not the word written in Genesis 9:3 - "Lakem" (L-K-M) is the word written there.

    The difference is an H vs K consonant. And those aren't going to change with vowel markers. You'd have to change the consonants that are written in order to change one word into another. Which would require a direct alteration of the original manuscript, rather than just the insertion of later vowel markers. And you have no evidence that any such alteration ever took place.

    No amount of changing the vowel markers is going to allow you to distort the meaning of Genesis 9:3 to conclude that God wasn't giving Noah's descendants permission to eat meat.

    What you're engaging in is vain attempts to try to salvage a theological opinion that cannot be supported by the text as written by trying to make up unsubstantiated reasons why you should disregard the text as written.
    #48 Rise, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  9. Rise

    Rise Well-Known Member

    Nov 17, 2012

    You are making a fallacious argument based the quirks of an old english KJV translation, which has absolutely nothing to do with how we'd translate the Hebrew or Greek today into modern english.

    The old english word "meat" did not mean "animal flesh". It did indeed have a connotation more akin to "daily bread". That's why the KJV translators used the word "meat" for a variety of food types in the Bible.

    Look at a modern translation and you will find references to permission to eat animal flesh (Genesis 9:3, Leviticus 11, Deuteronomy 14:3-21, Leviticus 17:13-14), sacrificing animals and eating animal flesh as a result of a sacrifice (Exodus 12:1-11, Leviticus 7). Among many other verses, but there should be no need to dig every single one of them up to demonstrate the truth of eating animal flesh in the Scripture.

    You don't need to go through an old King James translation to come away with the conclusion that the Bible says we can eat animal flesh after the great flood. The Hebrew and Greek plainly say that.

    You can't even try to dispute the meaning of certain Hebrew or Greek words to argue your claims because the context of so many of these verses is inescapable that it's referring to the killing and consuming of an animal. Trying to dispute the definition of a single word wouldn't change that. That's assuming you could dispute the definitions of those words, which you couldn't successfully do anyway.

    You are committing the logical fallacy of "shifting the burden of proof."
    Since you are the one claiming that translation of the LXX is wrong, the onus is on you to prove your claim is true by furnishing an argument that demonstrates why you think that translation is wrong.

    You can't try to claim it's wrong and then expect others to go do the legwork to prove you correct.

    The Brenton translation of the LXX:
    And every reptile which is living shall be to you for meat, I have given all things to you as the green herbs.

    New English Translation of the LXX:
    You may eat any moving thing that lives. As I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.

    All you're doing is committing the logical fallacy of circular reasoning by saying "well, it disagrees with my conclusion, so it must therefore be a wrong translation". You have no factual basis for you claim that it must be wrong. You only conclude it must be wrong because you need it to be wrong in order for your beliefs to hold up as not being disproven (but that ignores all the other verses I just posted which also disprove your beliefs about what Scripture says concerning animal flesh as food).

    You also demonstrate you don't understand much about ancient languages. The ancient version of greek that the LXX is written in can't be accurately translated by modern greek translators. Google translate won't even try to translate it.

    Since you seem to think Strongs is so authoritative, you can look at what Strongs has to say about the translation of this verse by going here: Berei**** (Genesis) 9 :: Septuagint (LXX)

    Genesis 9:3 LXX
    kai pas herpeton hos eimi zao sy eimi eis brosis hos lachanon chortos didomi sy ho pas

    I don't know enough Koine Greek to be able to do a properly authoritative translation, but a rough piecing together of the Strongs definitions yields something like:
    "and every animal which is alive and moving for eating like the edible plants on the land give to you these all."

    But since word order doesn't matter in Koine greek, like it does it english, you have to look at the tenses of the words to understand the proper order to put them in.

    Which is why when you translate it to english it might look something more like:
    "And every animal which is alive and moving I give to you for eating as likewise I gave you the edible plants of the land"
    #49 Rise, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist

    Jan 6, 2019
    Hi @Rise ,

    Welcome back :)
  11. Rise

    Rise Well-Known Member

    Nov 17, 2012
    Thank you :)
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Rise

    Rise Well-Known Member

    Nov 17, 2012

    Those are two more examples of the flawed logic with which you approach this entire topic.

    You start with a conclusion that God would not condone the eating of animal flesh.
    You then, assuming your conclusion is true, accuse any verse that contradicts your conclusion of being corrupted and changed or mistranslated - without an ounce of proof that it ever was. You just assume a priori that it must have been because you assume your conclusion is already true and beyond question.

    That's called the logical fallacy of circular reasoning.

    You can't go around accusing words of being mistranslated just because they contradict your theology.
    You need actual reasons and evidence for your claim.

    To dismiss something like that without a valid reason for dismissing it, would be the logical fallacy of "handwaving". You just try to gloss over these facts that contradict your claim and ignore it, without having a valid reason for dismissing those facts as not important.

    It's not like it's difficult to test whether or not your claim is true. Go look up the original Greek word and see what it means for yourself.
    You seem to think Strongs is authoritative, so go see what they say ichthys means.
    Or Thayer's Lexicon.
    You don't trust them? Then go learn Greek and find out what it means for yourself. The tools to do so are available to you.

    Don't want to learn Koine Greek for yourself? Then don't go around telling people a word must be mistranslated when you don't know what you're talking about and don't have the desire to go research it either.

    You also can't just go around accusing entire chapters of being added with no evidence. You can't claim something was added to the Bible later for no other reason than because it contradicts your argument and you want an excuse to dismiss what it says.

    All the ancient manuscript evidence includes John 21 as an original inclusion. You have no basis for claiming it was added later.

    You also don't have to read the end of John 20 as the end of the book, but simply as a parenthetical comment about the paragraph that came before. John was talking about the things Jesus did in the presence of the disciples to bolster their faith after the resurrection. Then he makes a parenthetical comment about the fact that Jesus did a lot more than what was written, but the ones that were written were done so that we might believe.
    Further, John 21 has a much longer and more appropriate ending to the book that is talking about all Jesus did, and not simply making a parenthetical statement about the previous couple paragraphs.

    Neither of your claims is true.
    Jesus was called a Nazarene, meaning someone from Nazareth.

    That's not the same as a Nazarite, which is someone who took a vow to abstain from certain things as described in Numbers 6.

    There is nothing in Numbers 6 that suggests a Nazarite had to become vegan.

    Your claim is false.

    As another already pointed out, Jesus is recorded as eating fish.
    Luke 24: 41-43
    John 21:13-15

    And you can't just handwave that away by claiming it must be an altered verse or a mistranslation without proof of your claim.

    Furthermore, Jesus was also sinless with regards to God's Law, which means He observed Passover, which means He ate lamb. As the Isrealites were commanded to observe every year.

    You have no historical basis for claiming the Ebionites were the original Christians.

    The early church fathers referred to them as heretics.

    You will not be able to substantiate your claim with proofs or evidence.

    Not only is it relevant, it's central to the core of what you're trying to argue against.

    Either eating meat is a sin or it isn't.
    Jesus, the only sinless man ever to live, ate meat, and didn't tell anyone else not to eat it.

    According to whose standard?
    Something is either a sin or it isn't.
    God never condones sin in moderation in the Bible.

    He never permits a little bit or adultery, or a little bit of murder.

    "Oh yeah, it's no big deal if you murder a few people, just as long as you don't go all full Gengis Khan".

    Says who?
    The Bible doesn't say that.
    Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

    In fact, the Bible contradicts you precisely by condoning the eating of meat.

    Jesus condoned it by not only eating it, multiplying it for others to eat, but he even cooked some fish over a fire for his disciples without being asked to. If that's not condoning a practice then you don't know what that word means.

    To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure.
    overlook, as an offense or fault.
    to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless

    That is irrelevant to whether or not the Bible allows the eating of meat.

    You can't lie to people and tell them the Bible says they aren't allowed to eat meat, when clearly they are allowed to, just because you want to manipulate them into adopting what you see as being more "sustainable" environmental practices.

    That's satanic. Satan was the first one in the Garden to twist God's words to manipulate mankind into doing something.

    If the truth is on your side then you won't need to lie, distort, and twist the Word of God in order to manipulate people into acting the way you want.

    As an aside: You likely don't realize that unsustainable fishing isn't a modern invention. There's a reason that Europeans like John Smith took long voyages to the northeastern coast of the USA around 1600 AD in order to stock their holds with cod. The North Sea had been overfished.

    You do realize, Peter and the disciples were fishing with boats and nets? Not fishing poles. The were COMMERCIAL fishermen. They did it for a living.

    Are you also not aware that Jesus told Peter to throw down his nets, and Peter pulled out a catch so big his net burst?

    Jesus obviously didn't condemn the practice, but even condoned it.

    Which is completely irrelevant to your claims.

    Eating fish doesn't need to be a major theme of the Gospels in order for it to disprove your claims about God not allowing the consumption of meat, or Jesus being Vegan, or followers of Jesus not being allowed to eat meat.

    You're engaging in the logical fallacy of "irrelevant conclusion" and "shifting the burden of proof".

    Whether or not these accounts can be used to justify a large intake of meat is completely irrelevant to what you were trying to argue.

    Because you were trying to argue that the Bible doesn't condone or allow the eating of meat.
    But the Bible doesn't support your claim.
    The Bible doesn't even support your claim that people should limit the amount of meat they consume.

    The onus is not on us to prove that the Bible says you can eat a ton of meat. It is sufficient to show that the Bible does not prohibit the consumption of meat or try to put limits on it's quantity.

    The onus is on you to prove that the Bible does prohibit the consumption of meat or put limits on how much is consumed.
    You aren't capable of doing that, because it's not in the Bible.
    #52 Rise, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
  13. Rise

    Rise Well-Known Member

    Nov 17, 2012
    God did design us to eat a raw vegan diet originally, but there's a few problems with your line of reasoning.

    1. They weren't given only fruit to eat. They were also given every plant to eat that bears seed. That is probably why a pure fruitarian diet doesn't go well in the long run. Nutritional deficiencies end up being apparent in those who try.

    2. You don't know what they were eating prior to the flood. Given how evil they were said to be, we have no reason not to assume they were eating meat, fat, blood, and even engaging in cannabalism.

    3. That's definitely not what caused them to live that long by itself. There are various factors that were contributors:
    a) Prior to the flood you had prefectly mineralized soil with an even distribution of all trace elements. This is evident in prehistoric plant deposits based on the mineral compositions found in them. It was after the flood that you had a concentration of elements into veins, leaving most areas lacking in the full range of elements needed for sustaining maximum life.
    b) Prehistoric atmospheric levels are known to have been at least twice as dense as they are today.
    c) The earth's temperature was more uniform in the past.
    d) Biblical evidence suggests that there was a uniform humidity and watering of the land by a series of underground springs that misted up, rather than the land being dependent on rain. These systems were broken up and destroyed during the flood.
    e) Noah's family represents a genetic bottleneck, which could have had great consequences on longevity and health due to a loss of genetic diversity.
    f) There is also speculation that increased cosmic and solar radiation is responsible for the degradation, because of potential changes to the atmosphere's density and water level that happened as a result of the flood.
    g) We don't know if certain plants or varieties were lost as a result of the flood radically changing the ecology of the earth. What if some of those plants were necessary for optimal human health and they are simply gone?
    h) Josephus does say that according to Jewish tradition the reason they lived longer prior to the flood was because their food was higher quality. That could mean it was different plants. Or plants grown under better conditions with better soil and minerals. I suspect it may be part of the answer but perhaps not the whole answer.

    I do wonder what the real cause was quite a bit though. I also wonder why in the Messianic Age this problem appears to be solved.
    Could it be what is talked about in Revelation about the tree of life being in Jerusalem and having 12 fruits and whose leaves are for the healing of the nations?

    4. You can't expect to get similar results. Not just for the reasons I outlined in #2, but also because there's a reason God gave mankind permission to eat meat after the flood. For all the reasons I outlined, we can surmise that God knew that most of mankind, for most of history, would now need to eat animal flesh in order to get sufficient nutrition. The ecology was too destroyed to support life as it was before.

    That's not accurate.

    The messianic age does still have death. Revelation mentions people living as long as they did before the flood in the messianic age, but it still talks of people dying and being considered cursed if they die young.

    It's also not true to say there won't be meat eaters or animal death in the messianic age.
    Ezekiel 45 talks about animal sacrifice still taking place in the messianic age temple, as well as universal observance of the passover taking place. Which we must presume involves the killing and eating of a lamb.

    Now it's true that it does talk about the lion eating straw and the snake not attacking the child in the messianic age - but you have to look at the context. The context is talking about this happening specifically on God's Holy Mountain. It is entirely possible that this change taking place is not universal over the globe but only happens around the city of Jerusalem.

    I think it would be great if it happened everywhere at that time. But it's possible to read the text as that not being the case.

    And even if it were the case, you can't get away from the fact that animals are still being sacrificed and presumably eaten at this time.
    #53 Rise, Aug 4, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2020
  14. Rise

    Rise Well-Known Member

    Nov 17, 2012
    The interesting thing about the modern Seventh Day Adventists, is that they don't seem to strictly adhere to vegetarianism. They seem to just eat meat in relatively small amounts.

    I was reading a book on "blue zones". That is, areas of the world that have long lived life on average.

    Loma Linda, California was one of them, which is an Adventist community.

    However, when it did the breakdown of their average diet, I was surprised to see meat on there. I guess they aren't as strict about the no-meat thing as I had assumed. Granted, it was a small proportion of their diet - but it was still there.

    In fact, all of the blue zones had meat in their diet. Some more than others. Some of the blue zones had a relatively large portion of their diet as meat.

    Although I think it's possible to live a long healthy life without meat as long as you eat the right way; there doesn't seem to be any long lived cultures around the world actually doing that 100%.