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Featured Christianity: A Summary

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by usfan, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Pink Flamingo?
     
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  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I consider this your 'personal interpretation' and not a 'historical consensus.'
     
    #22 shunyadragon, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  3. usfan

    usfan Active Member

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    This was the accusation (unevidenced)
    see the above accusation as evidence of confusion and misinformation.
    this fact summation was offered to clarify the misinformation
    done.. unless you wish to see the many proof texts comparing Jesus's teachings on hell, vs OT prophets? Shall i compile them for you?
    You made a claim, i rebutted it.
    Off topic jab at 'Christians!'
    does this address the topic? Your perceptions of 'evil xtians!'?
    Ad hom deflection. If you want to refute any points made, or show how they have no historical basis, go for it! But sniping at me, personally, is a tactic for impotent debaters.. :shrug:
    :facepalm:
    No, i am not Roman Catholic, though that is an ad hominem deflection with no bearing on the topic.

    Are you just looking for outlets for your hostility toward Christianity? Or do you want to discuss the precise definition of Christianity?
     
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  4. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    And your summary was neatly 'boxed'. Christianity is a living tradition and while the fundamentals remain Christian faith does not stagnate.
     
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  5. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    I hope all faiths, especially Christianity and Islam, will die a death one day and be no more.
     
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  6. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    Alleged Certainty: Alleged Certainty
     
  7. usfan

    usfan Active Member

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    This is not an appeal to anything. It is an historical analysis of 'Christianity', as an ideology. It's roots, it's Founder.

    I am not insisting that anyone 'Believe!', anything.. :shrug:

    You demonstrate that clarification is needed.
    There is another thread for 'lies and phony caricatures of Christianity'. ;)

    This is an attempt to DEFINE historical, biblical Christianity, as begun by the Founder.
    whatever.
    Not sure of your criticism. Are you claiming that any of these points are NOT exemplary of historical Christianity?
     
  8. usfan

    usfan Active Member

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    I see a lot of caricatures of Christianity, based on distortions, smears, and revisionism.

    Very early on, in the Christian faith, apologists corrected and opposed heresies, false teachings, and distortions that circulated among the followers of this worldview. Irenaeus was an early apologist, and wrote, 'Adversus Haereses,' against heresies, about ad180. The early apostles were also very active in defending the faith, as false teachings, distortions, and outright lies were as common then, as now.

    The irony is that many of the same heresies and distortions that were common then, are still promoted now, by the new deceivers, distorters, and enemies of Christianity. ..things really haven't changed, for the followers of Jesus, in any millennia..

    Edit:
    I do realize that many people are 'triggered', when anything about the topic of Christianity comes up, and i expect the usual heckling and mocking of the Christian faith. That has been going on for millennia, and is to be expected. This was not intended as an apologia for critics of the CLAIMS of Christianity, but a clarifying, corrected view of what Christianity is, at its basic level. I am trying to clarify the claims, not defend them. That would come later.

    And of course, i welcome any reasoned rebuttal or historical facts that might present an alternate view..
     
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  9. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Tail Wagger
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    The OP did not mention anything about the liturgy or saints. Saints are a huge deal in Christian History. When Christians take eucharist it is with the saints not only with the living.

    Its also doubtful whether Christians have always believed in a fallen angel. An early appearance of this idea is in Irenaeus book Against Heresy where he describes what he thinks are the beliefs of the gnostics. Jesus says Satan falls from heaven, but this has nothing to do with angels sinning. It is pure ignorance to teach people otherwise. This is a sure sign that the prophets continue to deceive and transmute.

    Prophets, unlike angels, do sin. Today we call them preachers, missionary board members, evangelists etc. Several books in the Bible have accounts of prophets lying and causing all sort of problems. Their greatest fault is to assure people that everything is fine when its not, and the first account of them doing so is in Micah. Its their bread and butter. There are all sorts of warnings in the canon about this and about listening to them. These people today we call preachers, and we continue to have the same problems with them, and listening to their sermons every week is no act of worship. Paul calls them the wolves that rise up from within, and he says in the last days people will gather teachers to themselves instead of listening to sound doctrine. In other words these are the people we run to for comforting words 'Of wisdom'. They are the people who are corrupted by our confidence in them. As that is the case its impossible for Christianity to be the caretaker of worldviews, yet. It is in the works. One of the goals of Christianity is to take care of this problem permanently, someday.

    Christianity has historically changed over time, not kept any worldviews consistently. The creeds are signs of titanic struggle and evil. Christianity used to allow for dynamic discussion and belief. That changed as the prophets created political rifts in the church. The shameful creeds are a result. They are by no means any sort of preservation but rather the marks of disasters where people have gotten into battles over trifles.

    The very insistence in the OP that there must be preserved some worldview with such static notions of God, of creation of all of these things is full of hubris, and it has no foundation. It has no roots beyond the claims of ministers, bad quotes of Paul and cherry picked quotes from Jesus devoid of analysis.

    I see 45 years of being assured by people paid to say what someone wants to hear. I see comfort and ease. I see corruption in these claims, nakedness, trouble for future generations.
     
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  10. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    You posted it in the Debates board.

    Also an Appeal to Emotion if we are to have a real, factual debate: Appeal to emotion - Wikipedia
     
  11. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    This seems like a decent and thorough description of the Christian faith, but maybe not so much a description of the Christian. This is all creedish but not so much grounded in other perspectives such as the cultural, historical political and the psychological.
     
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  12. usfan

    usfan Active Member

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    Yes, thank you for the well wishes.. :D
    ..people see what they want to, sometimes.. :shrug:

    But there is no factual basis for this grim, Hobbesian view of the ideology that brought civilization to the planet..
    Duh.. :rolleyes:
    It is obviously open for debate.
     
  13. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    In the Old Testament, Satan was in control of the earth and humans. Satan was like a CEO, of the earth. He reported to the Board of Directors, led by God. Satan was the Lord of the Earth. Like a large corporation, all the rest of the employees; humans, do not interact with the board directly, but do so via the CEO. The OT Jews worshiped God through his CEO, Satan. The New Testament is connected to Satan losing his role as CEO.

    Before Jesus began his ministry, he went into the desert to meditate and fast. There he met Satan, who tempts him with various things that are important to humans, like power and wealth. Satan was in charge of these earthy things. Jesus never denies his authority, but rather Jesus politely does not make a deal with him. Had Jesus made the deal, he would have become the Messiah the Jews had envisioned; powerful, wealthy and a warrior. However, this Messiah would be subordinate to a middleman; Satan.

    In Revelations, which was written, by John, decades after the death of Jesus, Satan is thrown from heaven. If Satan was thrown from heaven, decades after the crucification of Jesus, that means that Satan had to be in heaven, up through the time of Jesus. Satan, while in Heaven, had God's ear and acted in official capacity. The Book of Job, shows this rapport between Satan and God.

    Once Satan was expelled from heaven, according to the chronology, Satan becomes the Devil. He is not longer acting in official capacity, for God. After his expulsion to the earth, Satan, starts to free lance, as the Devil. This change is the New Testament foundation; all things start to change. The ancient way was no longer sanctioned, and a new era begins. After Rome, the old way was gone, forever.

    In the OT, since Satan was part of Heaven and he was in charge in an official way, war was considered divine and killing and dying was assumed controlled via heavenly places. The OT attitude was much different than now.They were not squeamish of war since it was of the Gods.

    After Satan becomes the Devil, who is now free lancing in an unsanctioned way, things like war is no longer seen as quite the same, since it now under the Devil, and he was no longer sanctioned by God. It was like waking up one day, and the rules have all changed. However, the old habits and the super ego of ancient cultures, run deep, So it takes to time to get with the new program. We no longer see the glory or war and conquest, collectively, although the Devil can still motivate some via visions of old school; Old Testament fire and brimstone.

    This symbolism had to do with a major software update in the human brain's operating system; new era; 2.0. It was a buggy version that still had some bugs due to incomplete uninstall. Along the way, to the present many critical updates were added like 2.1 and 2.2. We are nearly ready for 3.0. The Prophesies of Revelations represent a clean uninstall where only personal settings are transferred.
     
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  14. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Well it did appear that a new religion was the result...

    Some of the big changes are reflected in the following...

    There was a messiah in the NT whereas in the OT there will be a messiah
    The OT was originally written in Hebrew, the NT was written in Greek
    The OT explains a variety of rituals that one must undertake to achieve purity while the NT has just one.
     
  15. Zita

    Zita Solitary Eclectic Witch

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    you said yourself that early on people made claims about Christianity,just as they do now!! I find that interesting.
    you know what they say; if more than one person says the same things about you and they had no knowledge of each other then most likely what they are saying must be so.
     
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Unfortunately, before you say that, Christianity would have to be a single thing. Instead it's thousands of things.
    There are problems with that claim. One is that the bible portrays a God who is many incompatible things ─ a polytheist, a being who can't find Adam and Eve in the Garden or know the number of righteous in Sodom (or care about them, until they're drawn to [his] attention), whose Bronze Age morals are appalling (invasive war, massacre, mass rape, human sacrifice, slavery, women as chattels, religious intolerance, absolute autarchy and more).

    A second problem is that if you're right then everything good or bad that has ever happened and will ever happen is exactly and only as God intended before [he] made the universe. There's no moral responsibility left over for humans, and the Christian notion of the Fall goes out the window.

    A third problem is that if God is genderless, why does the Tanakh (albeit only once) and the NT (all the time) and the Trinity Doctrine, and the Creed, call [him] Father?
    No, man wasn't created perfect, having neither immortality nor knowledge of good and evil. No one has ever offered a coherent meaning to 'created in [his] own image'. The early part of the Tanakh is at very best ambiguous about a soul, which is an idea developed later, and in its Christian form draws heavily on Greek tradition.
    The cosmology of the bible is plain ─ the earth is flat, fixed and immovable, and the heavenly bodies go round it. The sky is a solid dome that you can walk on and to which the heavenly bodies are affixed, so that if they come loose they'll fall to earth. (Details >here<.)
    The Fall is essentially a Christian idea. There's no Fall in the Garden story, for instance.
    This version didn't become available until the 4th century CE when the Trinity doctrine was invented. In the NT, Jesus never once claims to be God, and expressly denies that he's God on at least 17 separate occasions. Paul agrees with him.
    This is the autarchy I complained of earlier, a dream of mindless obedience. It's a taste I don't share.
    Always tomorrow ─ Jesus has had two thousand years to tidy up the place, but ─ nothing.


    Still, I dare say none of that will worry believers.
     
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  17. usfan

    usfan Active Member

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    Departed saints, and their role in living Christians, is a personal belief, and is not a theme in the earliest traditions of Christianity. My goal was a simple summary of the basics. There are many peripheral beliefs among individual Christians (and non Christians), that are not included in a basic summation like this.
    The teaching about Satan are early and consistent among the Apostles, the church fathers, and Jesus Himself. I would need additional information and evidence to address this rebuttal.
    Not so. The historical, biblical ideology called 'Christianity', has remained consistent and constant, throughout history. Certainly there have been departures, aberrations, and distortions of, "Christianity!", but those are not the original, as defined by the Founder.
    A summary dismissal is nice, to express your indignation, but arguments, facts, and reason are better tools, if you wish to refute the OP.

    ;)
     
  18. usfan

    usfan Active Member

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    That is one way of looking at it..

    Or, it could be the original, intended revelation from God to man, fulfilled in the Person of Christ.
     
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  19. Zita

    Zita Solitary Eclectic Witch

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    Wow,
    wow,you wrote that like you personally was a witness to all this,is that how you know the chain of events?and so much about Satan and then becoming the devil, oh my that must have been interesting, you must have talked to Jesus and he told you about his encounter with the devil.and so on. Wow!!
     
  20. usfan

    usfan Active Member

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    Much of this is extrapolated theology, and is not essential in a summation of 'Christianity'. Delving into the deeper doctrines and perspectives of individuals did not seem useful, in expressing a basic summary.

    There are many beliefs, about Christianity, among humanity.

    1. There are Central, essential tenets of the Christian faith.
    2. There are departures, distortions, and aberrations, or 'not Christianity.'
    3. There are optional beliefs, not clearly defined by biblical precepts.

    I have chronicled the historical, biblical tenets of Christianity. Previous centuries, especially the first few, are ESSENTIAL to establishing a base mark for an accurate definition.
     
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