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Christian Without a Church?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't feel it's fair to be characterizing what I said, which was that the earliest form of Christian communities were, "non-violence, non-patriarchal, non-hierarchical," as a "free-for-all thingy where anything goes." Quite the opposite would be true.

"Non-patriarchal", or men and women being co-equal participants in roles of leadership, as well as in the home does not result in chaos. Women do not have weaker minds than men do. When it comes to brains and using them, there is no difference between the sexes. Patriarchy is a cultural creation imposed upon societies. To have equal rights, does not destroy society, or the home life.

Non-violence, does not result in a "free-for-all thingy where anything goes," either. We do not stay in line because of threats of violence and retribution. If that is the only thing keeping the group alive and together, then it's members have a serious moral deficiency, where when you remove threats of violence, they will act immorally. If Christians only are good people because they are afraid God will destroy them, then they are not good people at all.

Non-hierarchical, also does not result in a "free-for-all thingy where anything goes," either. There are many different types of group leadership styles for different purposes. Some are more effective than others, depending on the needs. Cooperatives are one example of this. They function well, and do not result in chaos without some "head" at the top.

Paul was quite clear that there is neither Jew nor Greek, free nor slave, women and men were equals and all got equal time being addressed in his authentic letters. Hierarchies violate that order, imposing men over women, owners over slaves, Jews over Greeks, and so forth. That is anti-Pauline.

And yes, that appears in later letters attributed to Paul, but they were not written by, nor in agreement with the original Paul's writings in his authentic letters. Modern scholarship exposes this and that is a consensus opinion regarding Pauline authorship.

As far Jesus setting up a hierarchy, that is not what modern scholarship reveals either. Mark's Gospel is a challenge to the Jerusalem church which wanted to have that hierarchical leadership that "big three" with Peter and James and John as heads. What Mark does is to cast these celebrated leaders of the Jerusalem church as bumbling, falling asleep on the job, not understanding Jesus being rather thick, and so forth. Mark's Jesus was anti-hierarchical. You can read one example of that here:

Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

~mk. 10:42-45​

That's a direct challenge by Mark to the idea that Christian communities needed hierarchical leadership he was writing against. Other examples can be found.


I think we need to be clear that "do your own thing", does not mean you can act in ways which are inconsistent with core teaching of Jesus to Love your neighbor as yourself. If you walk that walk, you are a Christian, a follower of the Christ.

Someone going to a church might be "doing their own thing" there two, like lying, and gossipping, backbiting, judging others, and all those things many church-going folks engage in from day one to the present. If there are no Christians there in the church, then why is not attending it a sin? Wouldn't it be a sin to remain there?

"Doing it on your own," is not quite right. You aren't. You're doing with God, and all the "holy witnesses" to borrow that metaphor. You are hardly alone. When one walks with God, you are with everyone and the world is your Church. Is that person not a Christian who walks that walk alone with God?

Is he of she not maybe better served on that path? What if the community, was just other people who see God, without the formalities of organized gatherings and formal ritual services, but just simply being genuine friends? Isn't that what the whole underlying teaching was about trying to create? Isn't the church the body of the world as seen by God with love and compassion for all?

Fellowship can be beneficial, and perhaps essential for some. That's perfectly fine. There are great benefits to it when it works. But it's not a must for all Christians. Some paths are best walked alone outside communities.
Simply put, there was a hierarchy with the Twelve, who then appointed others as stated in Acts and some of the epistles, and they "taught with authority" under Jesus' directive as it also states in both.

Also, just a reminder that it was this same authority who chose the canon of the Bible in the 4th century that you use, thus the Bible contains many of the teachings from the apostles and their appointees, which is why we use it to learn what we should and should not do. It all goes back to what Jesus, his appointees, and their appointees taught as recorded in the Bible.

And finally, Paul repeatedly said that the Church was "one body", to use his words, plus he elaborates on their teachings, thus my comment that what is taught is not a "just do you own thingy".

There's a couple of other things that you posted above that are not accurate, but I'll not get into that as I have to leave for a few days mini-vacation.

Take care.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I lean to the Sermon On the Mount because it is quite explicit in what we need to do as believers in Jesus.
good stuff...but

doesn't the sermon on the mount? .....display comfort to those in need of it
and a means of dealing with your follow man when you must

the parables are correction
of mind and spirit

discipline

and the means to walk with grace among the angelic
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I don't personally have a problem with you believing and doing that-- to each his/her own.

But I will say that if the "Carpenter" is one's "Inspiration", then maybe it's best for them to reread the Gospels and read exactly what Jesus taught, including the role of the Church and other related teachings. How can one have him as one's inspiration if much of what he taught that's in the Gospels is virtually ignored?
After Yahweh sacrifices himself, Jesus gains the Kingdom. He's Yah, the Lord, and 'christianity' is about belief, not the teachings from a pulpit, though they can have their place.

It's about priority, if you believe that going to church is the 'meaning' of being a christian, you don't understand the religion.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
What is mentioned in the NT would be to those of that time living under the Roman Empire under its systems of rules and laws, as opposed to those of the Christian communities at that time, which was starkly different. The importance of assembling was because a time where they could live free amongst each other, apart from that other system, treating each other as equals, both men and women, slave and free. The Christian community was not just a group of believers in Jesus, they had a "Christian lifestyle" where they operated under different rules; non-violence, non-patriarchal, non-hierarchical.
They were most certainly hierarchical. This is clearly outlined in Acts, the Epistles, the Didache, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp and the fragments of Papias.

In modern times we are under a different reality than Roman times. The values of the Christian ethos permeates our society. While not lived up to most of the time with the levels of discrimination, racism, biogatry, and misogyny still an issue in society, we do know these are wrong because of the exposure of the teachings of Jesus to culture at large. In that sense we are a "Christian nation". Not one based upon theologies and theocratic rule, but an Enlightenment Age democratic system founded on basic Christian ethical concerns, "Life, liberty, and justice for All". That is biblical.
Agreed. Though it would seem that the Christian ethical concerns are increasingly mattering less and less; we seem to be transitioning to a truly post-Christian society.

So the point is, while in ancient times the importance of community may have been urged by those early founding fathers of the Christian faith, the reasons would have been at a different level. The urgency for it then, does not automatically translate into the same urgency, for the same reasons today. The context of the times needs to be weighed.
We all need community to keep us stable, whether in times of peace or in times of persecution. One of the biggest troubles we have today is actually the loss and breakdown of authentic community. Our need for the Church is no different; Christians in the West may be relatively at peace now, but that can change on a dime. It was only 30 years ago that the Communist regimes fell, and the 20th century saw more martyrs for Christ than the previous 19 combined thanks to the Communist and Islamist yokes. Even now Christianity is still the most persecuted religion worldwide. We in the West have it easy compared to our brethren elsewhere in the world, and it's giving us a false sense of reality.

But to the real question, can a person be a Christian and not attend a church? Absolutely. In fact, sometimes the only way for them to actually be a Christian, is to not be a part of an assembly which acts and teaches contrary to Jesus' character and nature. Hate filled bigotry, is not Christian. In which case then, "come out from among them", applies more to leaving church if that is what it teaches.
One can certainly be a Christian without uniting themselves to a congregation that has deviated from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles, certainly. Sometimes one finds themselves utterly isolated from their church community due to things such as relocation to an area where the Church is not present, coming to Christ but being in a remote area where there is no church for them to attend, etc. But one cannot be a Christian without uniting themselves to the whole Body of Christ--a visible, hierarchical reality as described in the New Testament.

One's faith is like dying. You die alone. Your faith is your own, and it is between you and God, not between you and those who make themselves others' judge in the name of Jesus. If you find you grow more spiritually apart from the negative weight of a church assembly around your neck, then that is faith in action. Not all church assemblies, are actually Christian in practice, thought, or words. And not all paths to God are the same. Even if it is a good group, you may find the path alone to be your calling.
Even monks and hermits who spend most of their time alone in solitude and prayer are still connected to a church; they still have spiritual fathers or mothers, and they still attend church for Liturgy. Being a solitary Christian unmoored from the Church is a dangerous thing; there is safety among the flock under the watchful eye of the Shepherd and where one can receive proper guidance, not in the wilderness amongst the wolves and the lions and where pride becomes the biggest pitfall of all.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It's about priority, if you believe that going to church is the 'meaning' of being a christian, you don't understand the religion.
I never said nor implied that.

The real issue of the OP was whether one can still be a Christian and yet not want to get involved with any assembly of fellow Christians, especially since "church" is mentioned so many times in the N.T. and that it mandates the creation and following of the leadership, originally through the apostles but then also through their appointees? There are some who call themselves Christian but choose to ignore that mandate, thus the question of the OP.

Personally, I did not draw any conclusion one way or the other, nor do I have one for the reason that some here do understand, and your comment above is just an attempt at a slam that I don't appreciate.
 

Goodman John

Active Member
In my poor efforts to reconstruct the Cathar faith- a medieval Christian sect with Gnostic ties- I'm taking my cues from the Didache, which represents some of the earliest Christian practices. As the Cathars were trying in their own way to preserve the Early Church, this is probably at least close to the goal they were trying to achieve- a time in Church history before it was- in the Cathars' eyes- corrupted by greed and self-importance of its priests.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Wow, and off of that post, I must say, you daily Socialize in a Western civilization that has the Right to the only copies and defense of Christianity and the Bible and the only interpretation of its culture for over 1200 years. I'd say we should only look back at the insulter, who ever so claims that Christianity has anything more central than the monogamous relationship. Can anything be more central? is there anything but insult on the institution to say itself led to anything other than the monogamous relationships?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Wow, and off of that post, I must say, you daily Socialize in a Western civilization that has the Right to the only copies and defense of Christianity and the Bible and the only interpretation of its culture for over 1200 years. I'd say we should only look back at the insulter, who ever so claims that Christianity has anything more central than the monogamous relationship. Can anything be more central? is there anything but insult on the institution to say itself led to anything other than the monogamous relationships?
Let me recommend you quote the person and piece that you're dealing with because this isn't the first time I've had difficulty trying to figure out who and what you're actually addressing.
 
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