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Christian - Why most people follow Paul not Christ

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by wizanda, Oct 20, 2004.

  1. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Wizand...

    Jesus spoke Aramaic... not Greek.

    There are two types of "judgment"

    To condemn or pass a sentence (don't do it!).

    Or to use discernment (Better do it!).

    I get tired of people using the "do not judge trump card" everytime I disagree with them. Jesus told us that we will know a tree by it's fruit (discernment). Don't think of me as a judge as much as I am a lowly fruit inspector. I am not so sure of your fruit at this point. You listed a bunch of scriptures back to back, and I could not see how ANY of them were contradictory of each other. But then who am I to judge? :D
     
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  2. bibleconsultant

    bibleconsultant New Member

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    In no way does Paul contradict Jesus Christ.
     
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  3. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    prove it if you can, yet i will prove that he fufills all spoke of the anti-christ.

    Christ wasn't needed as a sacrifice, he came to show us all we could be annointed and added 2 commandments, so fufilling the law of the prophets.
    It was the pharisee and jewish council who thought it was good to kill him to cover sin, this is what Paul preached, why mark and peter didn't on with him. Preaching the death of thier friend and fear rather then love and wisdom as christ asked.
    So if you stand with Paul are you with them that killed christ? ​
    Rememeber we are judged by Christ words that he spoke and the law of moses.​
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hey Wizanda,

    Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

    Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

    Are you Jewish?
    Are you among the lost sheep of Israel?

    ;)
     
  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    I am Jewish as I have the curls and the looks of christ.
    My grandfather is pollish and narrowly escaped death in the war.
    Yet I wouldn't class my self as one of Christ sheep more his brother and helper of God.
    God is my shepard, the greatest farmer just need to tell the goats now, as they are stuborn and argumentative.
    Most follow the shepard, the sheep are easy to tend and need no instruction.
    The goats will follow if you use a rope to contain them, else they do there own thing and need laws or fences, ie Paul
    It was known that many will follow the shepard out of love and many as they feel it is the right thing.
    Most following as they feel it is the right thing yet follow Paul and believe that they have grace through the death of Christ.
    The sheep still remain loyal to the true shepard and wouldn't have allowed or wanted the death of one of there own.
    So as it is said, it is about faith that will seperate the sheep and the goats.
    I wish I could write up all the scriptures and refrences in one go. I have tried 4-5 times now and each time I get stuck as there is so many points where Paul opposes the bible and Christ.
    Each may seem slight to many yet when you look at the whole picture of the two teachings
    One leads you to God and oneness through Christ and the bibles teachings alone.
    The other to Christ yet blinding, you from God and the real meaning of scripture, as it adds Pauls interpritation and adds fear and judging.
    So if you were the devil and wanted all to walk the other way, why not make it you tell them that if they don't walk with you, they are sinners as Paul did.
    Then tell them to break the commandments, so they are all sinning and causing conflict with others by saying that all that don't follow are evil.
    Yet he can be stopped as the truth set us free.
    Now it just takes some people really looking at this, as many wise people in the past have and coming to a conclussion.
    The bible alone is enough to condmn Paul by his words
    Yet a quick search on the net and you can find other evidence that clear shows Paul to be the anti-christ.
    Wisdom is the key, love is the anwser to understanding both this and the ways of heaven.
    Peace B with U all
     
  6. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    As am I... and my Grandfather did not escape... but you are still missing the point:

    You are using one part of Scripture to denounce another part of Scripture..... and your evidence comes from Scripture..... and we should believe you because you quote Scripture..... but don't believe some parts of Scripture..... because Paul, in Scripture, is the antichrist... and it must be true because of what you read of Jesus, in Scripture.:confused:

    Confused? Me too!

    Scott
     
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  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Scott,

    We don't agree often, but I am as confused as you are here. Maybe a Pan Dimensional Gargle Blaster would help me to understand all the convolutions in his post!?! :D
     
  8. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Make that two!
     
  9. Christy

    Christy Member

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    Wizanda wrote: after christ death almost 5000 people where living together as one!!

    This was an honest first century attempt at communism. It failed and that failure had nothing to do with Paul

    Communism may flourish for a while as it now does in China; but tremendous control is continuously exerted over the population to make it "work." Is this really how you would like to live, Wizanda?

    Among free people who wish to practice their faith, communism will never work. In fact, communism will never work with any kind of people It is unsuccessful every time it is tried. And yet there are those who wish to try it again, and again, and again.....
     
  10. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    The most striking Biblical lapse here, is ignoring the significance of the Book of Acts in relation to the ministry of Paul.

    It seems to me that Luke goes to great lengths to show that Paul was not preaching by his own power, but was indeed a chosen messenger of God.

    He uses Peter, who's Apostolic status was never questioned (at the time) to draw several key parallels:
    • Both deliver inaugural sermons to Israel focusing on the Davidic covenant (2:22-36;13:26-14)
    • Both appeal to Psalm 16 to explain the Resurection of Jesus (2:25-28;13:35)
    • Both have the power to heal cripples (3:1-10;14:8-10)
    • Both are filled with the Holy Spirit(4:8;13:9)
    • Both are renowned for extraordinary miracles(5:15-16;19:11-12)
    • Both confer the Spirit by the laying on of hands(8:14-17;19:6
    • Both confront and rebuke magicians (8:18-24;13:6-11)
    • Both raise the dead to new life (9:36-41;20:9-12
    • Both refuse to accept divine worship (10:25-26:14:11-15)
    • Both are miraculously delivered from prison (13:6-11;16:25-34)
    To some... the Book of Acts is more of a apologetic defense of the status of Paul than a history of the early church.

    The Bible is trying very clearly to show all who read, the status of Paul.... I pray your heart is open to the truth.

    Scott
     
  11. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    It could be argued that because Luke was a disciple of Paul , then any of his written works could be counted as biased. It makes sense that he would support Paul, else he wouldn't have joined his ministry to begin with.

    A more reasonable scripture reference would be 2 Peter 15:

    "15 And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures."

    Peter was, at one time, at odds with Paul, yet sees God's gift of wisdom working in him, and even goes so far as to compare Paul's epistles to scripture (which would basically be the {Old Testament} at that time"
     
  12. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Hey Wizanda...
    You might want to try to read through this book... "Things That Differ" by C. R. Stam
    This book I promise will dispell all of the confusion... you can buy it or read the whole book
    here... http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm
    Enjoy... I hope it clears a lot of things up for you!
    Remember.... you need to




    [size=+1]"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth."[/size]
    [size=+1]--II Tim. 2:15.[/size]​
     
  13. intruth

    intruth New Member

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    Paul said:

    Gal 5:
    19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance--as I told you before--that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Jesus said:
    Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    I tend to be more concerned with scriptures such as these, in which both the Lord and Paul are saying the same things, and have to do with salvation.

    And, no offence intended, would go on to say that unless you are able to know the thoughts an intents of Paul's heart, it would be better not to judge him.
     
  14. john313

    john313 warrior-poet

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    Wizanda- you should check out "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the First Christians" by Robert Eisenman if you have not read it. you would like it. Paul is the one called "the Liar" or "the spouter of Lies" by the real followers of the teachings of Jesus. it has a bit on Paul and the death of James. the book is based on The Dead Sea Scrolls rather than just the writings of Paul.
     
  15. angellous_evangellous

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    O BABY!!! This is the funniest thing that I have ever read in my LIFE. Good luck you two. I have been around the block a few times and I have seen nothing remotely close to this. :eek:
     
  16. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    The flesh profited nothing it is the spirit that quickens(makes alive) The apostle paul in his teachings reveal the difference in carnal understsanding and that which is revealed to us by the Holy Spirit. If you think that you will see things the same way then I suggest that you sell all that you have give alms to the poor and take up your cross and follow Jesus. After you have sold everything you will find that if you are waiting on someone that you cannot see you will have to be patient. It's nobody else's business (in other words do not sound the horn letting everyone know. Find some strangers and then prove to yourself that you love them.
     
  17. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Christ IS God.

    "Love the sinner, not his sin" To put it lightly. We are to love the lost, want their salvation, but not partake in their sinful activities that may morally bring us down.

    we are free from working towards our salvation.

    God does not like idle hands.

    Christ says not to judge hipocritically- but if you are not doing the thing you are judging another for, there is nothing to blame you for. I can judge someone for not going to church if I attend church faithfully.

    you got it right God doesn't make mistakes- maybe you need to see that the word of God is true and infallible and there are NO contradictions and you MUST accept that Christ IS God. Look at 2 Tim 3:16- all scripture(meaning ALL paul's words included) is given by inspiration by GOD, and is profitable for docrtrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

    Christ is God. No contradiction. (triune God, u know).

    I think the Jewish church was a little different than the body of Christ. We are set free in Christ because we don't have to work for our salvation and can rest. THAT is our sabbath.

    Paul was not saved yet. He was still a lost man.

    the light of Christ is to shine through us and be examples for the world.
     
  18. Alien_Youth

    Alien_Youth Soldier in God's army

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    This is quite the interesting debate. I feel that there is merit on both sides of the issue. Christ did choose Paul but Paul did however do some things to change the faith into what it is today. adn on the subject of communion did not Jesus himself say at the last supper to "do this in memory of me"? if that is so then Jesus himself created the concept and Paul furthered it by preaching it to the Gentiles.

    Just my little weigh in on this controversial issue,

    Alien Youth
     
  19. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Everytime I see this spread and read some of the inflammatory language leveled at Paul, I can see that is work is not yet finished. Some people would rather lash out rather than try to understand!

    But if Peter accepted him, then so do I!

    II Peter 3:15. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    In fact, Peter seems to think I had better try really HARD to understand the man! :D
     
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  20. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    ut if Peter accepted him, then so do I!

    II Peter 3:15. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    In fact, Peter seems to think I had better try really HARD to understand the man! :D[/QUOTE]You said a mouthful again. I had nevr encountered such hostility to Paul until I found on the internet a web site a hate ful lashing out at Paul. Now here. this Just proves that you especially Paul can be persecuted even two thousand years later.

    Unless you have been in prison for the preaching of the gospel (from which some of our epistles came) been beaten, stoned, chased, persued, faced death continuously, I just don't see how anyone can speak a word agsainst Paul. Its incredible but wonderful in away that He could be persecuted while having been dead two thousand years.

    Just think if they could find his body.
     
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