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Christian: was satan the devil or eve the first liar?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by t3gah, Jan 30, 2005.

  1. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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  2. Fluffy

    Fluffy A fool

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    Surely, according to the Bible, Satan lies before Eve does.
     
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  3. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I firmly second Fluffy. The Scripture and Christian Tradition makes that very plain.
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    One more for Satan.... the father of lies.
     
  5. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot Well-Known Member

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    Wait, does the snake really lie? I mean, it almost seems like it was telling the truth...except for the "you won't die," but I think that means more that they won't die right away, not that they won't die period, seeing as God has no intention of letting them live forever anyway (later on it does have Him worrying that they'll eat from the Tree of Life and live forever)...and they certainly didn't die right away, Adam gets to be what, 800?
     
  6. Quoth The Raven

    Quoth The Raven Half Arsed Muse

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    Wouldn't it be God who was the first liar? If we're considering Genesis 2:16-17:
    2:16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:2:17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    He ate the fruit and lived for 800 years...just a little longer than the day he ate it.
     
  7. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    God's day does not equal 24 hrs, it equals 1,000 years. Adam died just shy of a day to God.

    (World English Bible)
    2 Peter 3:8 But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
     
  8. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Either that, or you can take it as an indication that the straight-forward literal interpretation isn't the best. God is the source of life, and Adam's sin cut him off from God. Thus, he died in some way by being cut off from God (Spiritual death in the context of my faith).

    Another way to look at it, and not incompatible with the above, is that as a result of his death, his physical death was made inevitable.
     
  9. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot Well-Known Member

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    Still, I'm not entirely convinced that the serpent was lying. I mean, you'd think the snake and the humans would be using days like we do, seeing as they're living on Earth, not with God. Heck, maybe the snake was just trying to clarify. Give 'em a chance to make an informed decision, sort of thing.
     
  10. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot Well-Known Member

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    Course, if you take it in a less literal sense, what the snake was saying implied that you could eat the fruit without consequences, which wasn't true. So I'm not sure if it was an out and out lie, but it certainly was rather deceitful.
     
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    ** MOD POST **
    This is a SAME FAITH debate for Christians.
     
  12. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    No*s:
    Good stuff man

    t3gah:
    Also good.

    I'm glad there are people out there who adequately defend their faith, by scripture, and rationale!
    Seems like there are so many who just believe because they were "taught that way", and they put no actual thought that way. It's not say that that is wrong, but it is dangerous. They're faith can be easily challenged! So kudos to most everybody here on the board!
     
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  13. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Thank you :).
     
  14. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    danke :)
     
  15. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    God didn't lie- Gen 2:17 was talking about spiritual death. God created man perfect for fellowship with him and his sin separated him from God. Humanity became naturally sinful. The first part of Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is death," meaning, eternal separation from God because of sin. But yes, I would say that Satan is the first liar.
     
  16. Dr. Nosophoros

    Dr. Nosophoros Active Member

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    I think the real question is, why would god want to withold knowledge from his creations?
     
  17. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    The tradition I get my understanding from doesn't say that the fruit was permanently forbidden, but forbidden until they had matured enough to understand it. Like many other things, we had to grow a bit before getting it.

    Neither of us has compunction on firearms, but by the same token, I wouldn't put a handgun into the hands of a one year-old. He'd have to grow a bit. It's the same basic concept here...but I realize not everyone agrees with this.
     
  18. Dr. Nosophoros

    Dr. Nosophoros Active Member

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    Would you put a loaded gun on a coffee table with a one year old in the house and expect them to not be curious or touch it simply because you told them no- if no, what does that say about the wisdom of "god"?
     
  19. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    Well, that seems to back to free will. God created us with the power of choice. It wouldn't make sense for him to give us the power to choose, but give us nothing to choose from.
     
  20. 12jtartar

    12jtartar Active Member
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    t3gah,
    Did you notice that Eve told Satan something different than what God told Adam, that they were not to touch the tree, or they would die, Genesis 3:3. Eve was not lying, Adam must have told her not to touch the tree, because he did not want her to disobey God's warning. Remember, Eve was nor alive when God told Adam not to eat from the tree, Genesis 2:17. Adam lived for 930 years, Genesis 5:5.
    The term day, in the Bible has several meanings, the daylight part of a day, Genesis 1:5, a 24 hour period of light and darkness, then at Genesis 2:4, the whole period of time of the creation of the heaven and the earth, Genesis 5:1,2 lumps the creation of Adam and Eve on a day. Psalms 90:4 says a day could be. Thousand years or even just a watch period, usually 4 hours. Also consider 2Peter 3:8.
    According to the Scriptures all who are not in God's favor are considered DEAD, Ephesians 2:1. Jesus also said that when a person is out of God's grace, he is DEAD, Luke 15:32, when giving the parable of the prodigal son.
     
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