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Christian: Was David Bisexual?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by hoomer, Feb 1, 2005.

  1. hoomer

    hoomer Member

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    Christians are often Homophobic. How does fit in with the all encmpassin uncnditinal love of the Christ? How can we be truy Christ ike...and have hatred twards our fellow men within our hearts?

    If God hates Homosexuals so much why was the messianic bdline of David chosen...when david was possiby Bi sexual?

    David & Jonathan

    There is no real need to bring out a passage showing approval of homosexuality. After all, the Bible condemns only those actions it actually condemns, and homosexuality is not one of those things.

    However, even though they are not strictly necessary, there *are* several passages that show approval of gay relationships.

    To mention just one, there is the love affair between David and Jonathan.

    "And it came to pass, when he [David] had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul . . . And Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul."

    And immediately afterward, Jonathan disrobed before David:


    "Jonathan divested himself of the mantle he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his military dress, and his sword, his bow and his belt.

    Jonathan was not only disrobing, but was turning the symbols of his manhood over to David. This draws a very clear picture of what is happening here.

    "Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse [David] to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?"

    Reference to the nakedness of one's parents is one of the methods used in the Bible to refer to a sexual relationship. Jonathan had chosen David as his lover. And in the same conversations Saul says:

    Why, as long as the son of Jesse lives upon the earth you cannot make good your claim to the kingship!

    This clarifies Saul's problem. One of the most important duties of being a king was producing an heir. Obviously, Jonathan had no intention of producing an heir, and therefore could not provide the final step needed to make good his claim to the kingship. He loved David and *only* David.

    " . . . they [David and Jonathan] kissed one another, and wept one with another . . . "

    Here they are displaying a deep affection for one another, and showing an emotional attachment well beyond what would be shown by two heterosexuals in a similar situation. They actually weep together because of their upcoming forced separation.

    [After Jonathan's death, David said,] "I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women."

    As you can see, they were very much in love. The Bible shows them kissing one another -- not a normal activity for heterosexual men.<g> To make sure you don't miss the sexual aspect, the love is compared (favorably, by the way) with the love of a woman. Their souls were knit together in love, and they made a covenant because of their love. Just think about how many covenants are made because of love. The covenant of marriage sort of sticks out. The actions immediately following that declaration of love are also unmistakable. Not many covenants made because of love result in the participants disrobing in each other's presence, but one such covenant -- the covenant of marriage -- does.

    The comment about the nakedness of Jonathan's mother in the discussion of his relationship with David strongly implies a sexual element to the relationship. This just reiterates what is already obvious.


    To emphasize the point, Saul offers his oldest daughter Meroh to David, but David turns down the offer. He then offers his younger daughter Michel to David, who loves David, but David also turns this down. Something very interesting here is that, even though the Bible says that Michel loved David, there is no reciprical "David loved Michel" statement. David finally agrees to marry Michel, but not for love, but rather for the benefit of having the king as his father-in-law.

    "When the servants reported this offer to David, he was pleased with the prospect of becoming the king's son-in-law."

    Note that there is no mention of being pleased at the prospect of marrying Michel, bit only with becoming the king's son-in-law.

    David was obviously bisexual. But with a preference for men, since he found his love for Jonathan to be wonderful, passing the love of women. As a King he *had* to have a harem and produce heirs, no matter his sexual orientation, but his one true love was Jonathan.

    You know, I have thought about how *I* would have phrased things to clearly show a homosexual relationship in the Bible. Other than describing the physical act itself, which I would not do, I would have done it by saying that they loved each other. To make absolutely clear that this was a gay relationship that was the equivalent of marriage, I would have said that they made a
    covenant between each other because of their love. I doubt that I sould have gone as far as to show them disrobing as the Bible does, but I might add in the symbolism of giving up the sword. Just in case that got missed, though I would have found it hard to believe that this could be misconstrued, I would have shown an example of physical affection, perhaps going as far as to say they kissed. Surely that would be enough for *anyone* to know that this was a gay relationship. But just in case anyone managed to deny that, I would have added something like having one of the characters compare their relationship to a relationship with a woman, and
    find this one better. No one could possibly misinterpret *that* one. But just to make *absolutely* sure that it could not be mistaken for anything but a homosexual relationship that included
    a sexual element, I would use one of the code phrases used to point out a sexual relationship, such as a reference to "the confusion of thy mother's nakedness".

    Actually, I probably would never have gone that far, because I would not have believed that anyone could *possibly* miss the obvious. But I cannot think of *anything* that I could have written that
    would have made the point beyond what is actually shown here.

    © 2000, by JRichards. All rights reserved, except that free distribution via any medium is permitted as long as author's credit is given and no profit is involved.
     
  2. hoomer

    hoomer Member

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    Jonathan Loved David

    The Bible has often been used as a weapon to condemn homosexuality as sinful or immoral. It is often overlooked and even outrightly denied that some of the heroes in the Bible were themselves homosexual. The story of Jonathan and David is one of the more obvious cases.
    For the sake of simplicity, I'll let the Bible itself unfold most of the story.
    After David's heroic victory over the Philistine giant, Goliath, in 1 Samual, Chapter 17, David meets Jonathan for the first time.
    1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 2 And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house. 3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. 4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle. 1 Samuel 18: 1-4
    Their souls are knit together, they love each other so much that they made a covenant with each other, and Jonathan, son of the King, strips before David, who is much lower in rank and status.
    In the next passages, David's popularity and military achievements are advanced, and King Saul starts getting jealous of all the attention being paid to David. In order to trap him, Saul makes David his son-in-law by giving him his daughter, Michal, to wed.
    Some people may stop right here and say that if David married Michal, it's proof that he didn't have a homosexual relationship with Jonathan. There are several flaws to this argument. First, their marriage was probably only political. Saul offers his daughter's hand in marriage only as part of a greater plot to get at David. And while it was said that Michal loved David, the Bible never says that he loved her back. Also, we know from other ancient cultures such as the Greeks and even the Philistines, that heterosexual marriages weren't necessarily exclusive. It's very possible that David could have been bisexual.
    In 1 Samuel 19, Saul tries to kill David, and David eventually flees in 1 Samuel 20.
    1 And David fled from Naioth in Ramah, and came and said before Jonathan, What have I done? what is mine iniquity? and what is my sin before thy father, that he seeketh my life? 2 And he said unto him, God forbid; thou shalt not die: behold, my father will do nothing either great or small, but that he will shew it me: and why should my father hide this thing from me? it is not so. 3 And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, there is but a step between me and death. 4 Then said Jonathan unto David, Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I will even do it for thee. 1 Samuel 20: 3-4
    David and Jonathan continue talking about what to do about Jonathan's father. Then they part ways so Jonathan can go somewhere safe. Again they make a covenant with each other, and swear their love for each other. Jonathan loved David "as he loved his own soul".
    16 So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, Let the LORD even require it at the hand of David's enemies. 17 And Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul. 1 Samuel 20: 16-17
    In the next passages, they plan to meet again so that Jonathan can let David know whether he should come back safe from Saul, or whether he should go away. And Jonathan talks to his father. Saul tells Jonathan that he is confused in his love for David. He also says that as long as David is around, Jonathan won't establish his lineage or kingdom. This certainly has all the elements of a coming out story.
    30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness? 31 For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die. 1 Samuel 20: 30-31
    Jonathan warns David that his father is still angry, and that he's not safe. They reaffirm their covenant to each other, kiss each other, cry over the situation, and I'm not even going to try to interpret what it might mean when the passage says "David exceeded".
    41 And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded. 42 And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the LORD, saying, The LORD be between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed for ever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into the city. 1 Samuel 20: 41-42
    In 2 Samuel 1, David hears about the death of Saul and Jonathan in battle. He mourns their deaths, and remembers his times together with Jonathan stating that Jonathan's love for him was stronger than Jonathan's love for women.
    25 How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. 26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. 2 Samuel 1:26
    Well that's their story as told in the Holy Bible. There are other Bible heroes that are rumoured to have been gay or lesbian. Among them are Ruth and Naomi, Daniel and an eunuch, and the Apostle Paul (though if he was, he had his own issues with sexuality). To find out more, check out some of the resources below.​
     
  3. huajiro

    huajiro Well-Known Member

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    I have always argued this about Christianity. I am supposed to love 2 men unconditionally (Jesus/God), and a holy spirit. Yet my fellow man who loves his fellow man (a lot).....is criticized for this, and told he will burn in Hell.
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what your point is..... you ask about being Christ like, but use an Old Testament (BEFORE Christ) scripture example.

    Oh.... I get it.... because you think David was a homosexual and that it's in the Bible, then it's ok?

    Exodus 2:12 He (Moses) looked this way and that, and seeing no one he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.

    I guess murder is ok too, right?

    Now, I in no way equate murder with homosexuality.... I just wanted to illustrate how ridiculous your argument is.

    How'd I do?;)

    Scott
     
  5. hoomer

    hoomer Member

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    David's BLOODline is Christs.....accrding to most....hence it is relivant
     
  6. hoomer

    hoomer Member

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    so that is my argument..if God hates "gays" why chose a Bisexua man to be the messianic bloodline???

    So God isnt a bigot...people are...imo........
     
  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Oh..... what's wrong with Bisexual men?..... and why would the bloodline matter unless you can prove it is more relevant than the relationship God had with Moses?
     
  8. hoomer

    hoomer Member

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    Nothing is wrong with Bi sexual men. To quote myself "Christians are often Homophobic."...they use scripture to justify this biggotry.

    Um...bloodline and procesion of Kings needs explaining? David was king...Christ's blood was royal.......this needs explaining?
     
  9. hoomer

    hoomer Member

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    If blood is so unimportant cmapared to a reationship with God...why do catholics drink "Christ's bood"???...blood is and has aways been important spirtually!

    “Blood is a Very Special Fluid”
    Faust, Act I, Scene 4. ​
    THE OCCULT SIGNIFICANCE OF BLOOD A Lecture By
    Rudolf Steiner
    Berlin, October 25, 1906
     
  10. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    On that we agree..... so I guess I still don't see your point..... I guess it would make more sense to someone who is homophobic.... I'll let you stick to chatting with them.
     
  11. retrorich

    retrorich SUPER NOT-A-MOD

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    Why are Christians so hung up on sexuality? Was Jesus heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or asexual--and who cares?
     
  12. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    There are natural laws, and there are spiritual laws, but the spiritual has more precedence. Everything material is temporal and will pass away. There is no gender and no sexual orientation in God's kingdom. Everyone is entitled, regardless.
     
  13. Hope

    Hope Princesinha

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    I believe, Hoomer, that you have taken Scripture and construed it to fit your pre-existing mindset.

    Before pronouncing David as bi, one must take a few things into consideration. First of all, kissing in Middle-Eastern cultures, and even other cultures, is very common, and does not mean one is gay. It is a greeting, a sign of affection, and is done man-to-man, man-to-woman, and woman-to-woman. Usually it is on the cheek. It does not say in the Bible that David kissed Jonathan on the mouth. I think those of us in 'Western' cultures have become so obsessed with stereotyping behavior as either 'gay' or 'straight' that we have lost sight of the beauty and innocence of sharing our affection with another person through physical touch. It doesn't have to mean anything sexual! I spent some time in Brazil many years ago, and I loved how the Brazilian people were incredibly touchy-feely---the common greeting between people was a kiss on both cheeks. I 'kissed' many men and women while there---does that mean I was sexually involved with them? Of course not!! It was merely a greeting, and a way to show affection to a friend.

    Also, just because David and Jonathan's love was better than a woman's, does not necessarily mean it was a sexual love. One of my brothers has a best friend who is male, and they have been best friends most of their lives. They, are in fact, so close, that they regularly tell each other they love each other ( their phrase being "I love you, man!" ). Neither are gay or bi, or even close to being so---but they have such a connection, such a kinship, that they are not afraid of telling each other what the other means to them. And they feel that their relationship is, in many ways, superior to that of a relationship between a man and a woman. There is an intense bond there, and it is the kind of bond that does not require a sexual aspect to it. I believe David and Jonathan shared this kind of bond. It is a very beautiful type of friendship, and, unfortunately, in this day and age of 'hyper-sexuality-and-over-sensitivity' we don't see many of these types of friendships between males. ( At least I don't. ) And that whole thing about the 'disrobing'---it doesn't say there was any nakedness involved. That is your own interpretation.

    So, in summary, the opinion that David was bi is just that---an opinion. And, as I have pointed out, there are other factors to take into consideration before making the assumption that he was bi.

    One more thing.....God does forbid 'men lying with men' in the Old Testament. I'm pretty sure it's in Leviticus somewhere....I'll try to find it later.
     
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