Christian Warfare

[Redemptionsong]

Are you able to demonstrate this without using the NT?

Are you able to bring proof that such things were not allowed in that area? If I remember correctly, it was not really a court - just the area of the Temple Mount where non-Jews and impure people could be found. If impure people could be there, why not traders?

There are many diagrams of Herod's temple available to study. We know that the innermost area was the Holy of Holies, and the Holy Place. These were only accessed by the priesthood. Beyond this were the courts for the lsraelites; for men, and separately for women. Then, outside of these you had the courts that provided access for Gentiles. The outer wall of the whole complex had gates through which people could gain access to the temple compound.

Jesus believed that the whole area within the gated wall should have been dedicated to worship.

In the sight of God, whilst all men are unclean, it is possible to come to God with a repentant heart and an acceptable sacrifice. The idea of the temple precinct was that it should be free of unclean practices, and trade, which is the way in which men make money.

If you allow this kind of practice to continue, before long your temple has become a stock exchange, and you've exchanged your LORD for mammon!

 

[Redemptionsong]

Ni I'm not judging my neighbours, I don't know any Christians that are neighbours.
Christians don't listen to many of Jesus's words imo, but Deists are governed not by the words of Jesus but by the resident power around here, Mother Nature, and do we would feel more close to the Druids and Wicca I think. I'm only just learning about that so you would need advice from such as the @The Hammer but certainly you, me and all others stoop before Mother Nature.

I know that l look to the Creator, not the creature!

 

[Harel13]

There are many diagrams of Herod's temple available to study. We know that the innermost area was the Holy of Holies, and the Holy Place. These were only accessed by the priesthood. Beyond this were the courts for the lsraelites, for men, and separately for women. Then, outside of these you had the courts that provided access for Gentiles. The outer wall of the whole complex had gates through which people could gain access to the temple compound.

Great. Now please pick a map of the Temple Mount of the time and point out where the market was set up.

Jesus believed that the whole area within the gated wall was dedicated to worship.

And why would he think that? Remember that the Temple Mount had been extended several times during the Second Temple period. During the time of Simon the Just, the Hasmoneans and by Herod. In other words, what you appear to be referring to was not originally part of the original Temple Mount. Just one of the reasons that non-Jews and impure people could come there.

If you allow this kind of practice to continue, before long your temple has become a stock exchange, and you've exchanged your LORD for mammon!

"Mammon" really just means money. Unfortunately, we can't all be wandering preaching anarchists like Jesus was. But I await your demonstration that there was actually any halachic (Jewish law) problem with the location of the market. If it was where you say it was, that is.

 

[ChristineM]

Pay back Caesar's things to Caesar, unless Caesar wants you to break God's Law

So you think breaking the law of the land is ok in the name of your faith?

Christians are Not to force anyone to listen to them. The job is simply to tell and let the others decide for themselves.

Bull. When you are on a position that you cannot escape their rhetoric and they know it is forcing people to listen to them.

Jesus is the figurative 'stone' that will strike the political statue's feet causing it to collapse.

Figurative violence is still violence

In other words, that political statue does Not collapse on it own but is on shaky feet made of iron and clay.

You say collapses by forcing figurative violence.. ok

 

[ChristineM]

Jesus was speaking about one's personal judgement of another -

Convenient apologetics that boils down to "that person cannot be Christian because they do not think the same way as me"

It is still judgement

 

[Redemptionsong]

Yes, I agree with you. Our fight is not against flesh and blood, and wisdom can break down fortresses.
Typically, it is a shame to have to resort to violence in order to resolve an issue, or make a point. The taunting of a fool should never threaten a wise and confident person.

A person should never die or fight for the country, for their country is an arbitrary political border that no person ever has control as to where they are born. Plus, one's country cannot save you from harm (necessarily), or especially from perdition . Therefore, why give it such devotion and honour as though it defines who you are, or that you owe it your life and blood?

But, as you said, it does raise many difficult questions: should a man not physically protect his family from a violent and imminent threat?


Ecclesiastes 9:18
Wisdom is better than weapons of war

Proverbs 21:22
A wise man scales the city of the mighty and pulls down the stronghold in which they trust.

Ecclesiastes 9:15
Now a poor wise man was found in the city, and he saved the city by his wisdom.

Ecclesiastes 7:19
Wisdom makes one wise person more powerful than ten rulers in a city.

Whilst l hold to a position of non-violence, l recognise that it's a position of personal faith.

There's a price to be paid for every position we hold. If one fights, one may die. If one doesn't fight, one may also die.

I'm sure Gandhi, and MLK jnr, were aware of the dangers that their non-violence posed to themselves and their loved ones. MLK had a wife and young family, and his house was bombed. This was before being assassinated with a bullet.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I can because even that gospel is partially corrupted by Rome, but not as much corrupted as the rest.

... and his name is Yeshua. You don't even get his name right.

It sounds to me as if you want to write your own Gospel!

As a Gentile, l feel it's legitimate for me to use the 'Hellenized' form of his earthly name. Although Jesus was a Jew, the NT was written in Greek, not Hebrew.

 

[Harel13]

As a Gentile, l feel it's legitimate for me to use the 'Hellenized' form of his earthly name. Although Jesus was a Jew, the NT was written in Greek, not Hebrew.

I would add that I don't think there's any proof what Jesus's original name was.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Great. Now please pick a map of the Temple Mount of the time and point out where the market was set up.

And why would he think that? Remember that the Temple Mount had been extended several times during the Second Temple period. During the time of Simon the Just, the Hasmoneans and by Herod. In other words, what you appear to be referring to was not originally part of the original Temple Mount. Just one of the reasons that non-Jews and impure people could come there.

"Mammon" really just means money. Unfortunately, we can't all be wandering preaching anarchists like Jesus was. But I await your demonstration that there was actually any halachic (Jewish law) problem with the location of the market. If it was where you say it was, that is.

I base my understanding of the temple on both earthly representations and the spiritual implications. [Maybe you can do the uploading bit!]

According to the NT, Christ came as Saviour, first to his own people, the Jews, then to all, meaning any other person (Gentile) who would receive him. This is reflected in the structure of the temple compound. To have excluded the Gentile courts from the area of worship is the same as saying that Gentiles were not called to salvation in Christ.

It actually makes perfect sense that Solomon's temple should not have had all the courts that were added later. This is because God was seen as exclusively the God of Israel, and all Gentiles were unclean. In Christ, this changes, because, in Jesus Christ, remission of sin is offered to Gentiles and Jews alike.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I would add that I don't think there's any proof what Jesus's original name was.

That Jesus and Joshua share the same name is, lMO, beyond dispute. There is a parallelism between the persons of Jesus and Joshua that cannot easily be ignored.

 

[oldbadger]

specializing in religion i expect this happens a lot

Yep!! .
Politics
Religion
Police
Taxation
We argue, debate and shout over anything from 'which bicycle' to 'food' and more.

 

[oldbadger]

I know that l look to the Creator, not the creature!

You'd better be really respectful to Mother Nature first!

 

[tom foolery]

Convenient apologetics that boils down to "that person cannot be Christian because they do not think the same wa

You'd better be really respectful to Mother Nature first!

but you all stay together? high tensions and religion (or politics) often lead to fights. and rest assured i am more respectful to mother nature than i am of any human

 

[tom foolery]

You'd better be really respectful to Mother Nature first!

i was watching the debate for a while and things got heated. i expected that given the context. but i am impressed if after all the ill feeling you can put it all behind you and start anew every time.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I would add that I don't think there's any proof what Jesus's original name was.

I find the Gospels to be consistent and true in delivering the fulfilment of a certain section of prophecy. If Jesus saves, as l believe he does, then his name expresses this truth.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Could be, but were they collecting half-shekels?

I looked up Temple Tax and it did say it was a half-shekel.

 

[Harel13]

I looked up Temple Tax and it did say it was a half-shekel.

Yes, I said the half-shekels were given to the Temple. But it wasn't a tax in the regular sense of the word. That said, were Matthew and Zacchaeus collecting the half-shekels for the Temple or were they collecting taxes for the Romans?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Yes, I said the half-shekels were given to the Temple. But it wasn't a tax in the regular sense of the word. That said, were Matthew and Zacchaeus collecting the half-shekels for the Temple or were they collecting taxes for the Romans?

Good question. I do not know right now, but I will look it up.

 

[The Hammer]

I'm only just learning about that so you would need advice from such as the @The Hammer but certainly you, me and all others stoop before Mother Nature.

Feel free to ask if you want any more information on Druidry, or want a book or 37 to look into.

My PM box is open too.

 

[oldbadger]

Feel free to ask if you want any more information on Druidry, or want a book or 37 to look into.

My PM box is open too.

Thank you.
It really is time for me to look in to these ancient followings. At first I think I'll trawl IT and buy some books, but if I could ask questions of you in future that would be great.
There'll always be new pieces of info to discover about Jesus but after a decade of searching and being on RF I think it's time to change tack....