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Christian: Some passages about Jesus being God

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Linus, May 28, 2005.

  1. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Jesus is saying that God forgives us before we even ask. It's up to us to accept forgiveness,and to realize that we are worthy.
    The bible also says that we were there from the beginning

    Most of these are not Jesus calling himself God, but others calling him God. And I will emphasize. We are all divine children of God. We were all there from the beginning. God is within all of us. Jesus taught us to see God within us, not to search outside, to someone else, but seek God within. And as for Jesus being God's only begotten son . . .
     
  2. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Mujahid,

    I assume that your family members are not (or at least not all) members of one of the Apostolic churches, as it sounds as though they are probably sola scripturalists. Not all Christians have the same sources of information to work with - Protestants eschew Holy Tradition whereas for us it is vitally important. Relying on Scripture alone does tend to cause the sorts of different interpretations you have noted.

    I would have to say that there are no contradictions at all in the Scriptures you refer to. Firstly, the God of the OT is, from our point of view, the Holy Trinity, which is indeed One, though composed of three Hypostases. This is not a contradiction and is also what Paul is referring to when he says that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. It is also true that the Father is greater than Christ, in two ways. Firstly, the Father is the source of the other two Hypostases, begetting one and proceeding the other so, in this sense the Father is the greatest Hypostasis in the Godhead and secondly, Christ was speaking while Incarnated as Man. This is an important point because as Scripture tells us, God the Son voluntarily humbled Himself when he came into the world as Jesus Christ. Very many Christians, however, fail to distinguish between temporal and eternal attributes of God which, incidentally, is one cause of our disagreements with the Roman Catholics over their addition of the filioque clause to the Creed, which distorts the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Another reason for the differing interpretations of the Trinity you might come across is that the vast majority of Christians are simply not that theologically savvy. This is fine, for most people simple faith is more than enough - not everyone feels the urge to delve into the Mysteries of the faith the way I do.

    James
     
  3. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I would agree with this analagy. Jesus is of God. He was completely connected to God his whole life. Aware of the connection, and did not seperate himself by sin.

    However, he is not God Almighty. God said 'put no God's before me', he also said, do not make graven images of lesser Gods. I know we should honor the Son of God. We should recognize the light of God that shone so bright within him. But don't some go too far and say the Jesus IS GOD? Jesus taught us the the light of God shines within each of us, and we are not to hide it under a bushel, but let it shine.

    There are many who take the few scriptures that refer to Jesus as being Godlike, and using to validate their beliefs, but why do they ignore the 81 times that Jesus himself says he is Son of Man? I do not think we should base our faith on specific portions of the bible, for each individual section is written by man, but on the whole bible, the whole bible, which is the word of God. Jesus is also 'the word', and we should also not base our faith of Jesus on just a few scriptures, but again on the whole.

    My identity is not based on a few moments of my life, but the sum of the whole. I feel we should be seeking to find the light of God that shines in each individual. When I look at my children, I see God, and praise him. When I see two people in love, I see God, and I praise him. When I see evil in the world, I know the the light of God is being hidden beneath fear, hate, etc., but God resides there as well, and I praise him.
     
  4. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    The Scriptures are only one part of the basis for my beliefs and hence my belief in Christ is not based solely on them whether in part or taken as a whole. I also feel you are misunderstanding the phrase 'Son of Man' as this in no wise contradicts Christ's divinity, but you are entitled to your own beliefs however much I may disagree with them.

    James
     
  5. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    The phrase "Son of Man" is not a title that Jesus made up. Nor is it something that refers to his humanity alone. It is a reference to Daniel chapter 7 and refers to both His divinity and His humanity. I quote Paul E. Little from his book, Know Why You Believe:

     
  6. njcl

    njcl Active Member

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    jesus is the son of god,he is not god and neither claimed to be,also why did he say father why has thy deserted me on the cross?..or was he talking to himself??,you see preposterous,never the less i percieve christ as a god and when on earth was equal or thereabouts in power to his father
     
  7. profet

    profet New Member

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    :162: As a Christian, I regard the Old Testament as semi-fictional drama with the exception of the 10 commandments which Jesus says are still in effect or when Jesus himself quotes from them. With regards to the gospel writings:



    Jesus' name was not Immanuel



    The scribes said that, not Jesus




    These quotes are no differant then Wayne Dyer saying "there is a universal source that has always existed and we can tap into it." It doesn't mean Wayne is claiming divinity.



    Someone else was saying it.

    This is the author of Matthew editorializing the appearance of John the Baptist, Again Jesus not saying anything.

    Here is Jesus actually saying something: :162:

    Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    Matthew 20:23 but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
     
  8. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Matthew here is quoting from Isaiah. It is a prophesy. Just because Jesus wasn't literally named Immanuel doesn't mean the prophesy doesn't apply. The language is somewhat figurative.


    But Jesus doesn't deny it, does he? I think the message is clear. People interpreted Jesus' message as claiming to be God, and Jesus makes no confession otherwise.




    Did you look at the other passages that refer to these?


    John 8:58 refers to Isaiah 41:4

    John 17:5 refers to Isaiah 42:8

    Please read the passages in light of each other.

    Again, I don't see this fact as very significant. Jesus never denies it. I think the fact that the message was so powerful that other's see it for themselves without being told directly is pretty significant.

    I think the Strongest arguments for the divinity of Jesus are these:

    Isaiah 9:6
    The comparison of Isaiah 44:6 and Revalation 2:8
    The comparison of Isaiah 41:4 and John 8:58
    2 Peter 1:1
    Titus 2:13
     
  9. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    profet,

    As a Christian.... what was the point, then, of Christ dying on the Cross if he was just a man?
     
  10. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    What do you all think about this one?

    Colossians 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

    I'll admit I don't fully grasp what the author is saying here, but that first verse seems to be saying something about Christ's deity. I don't know for sure though...
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I don't know that I will EVER fully understand how Jesus is God, man and the Son of God all at the same time. I am sure that God has it down perfectly. So I will continue to work on my Godly character since he has told me to do so (thorugh Peter) and let God be God, and Jesus be Jesus. For after all, he desires mercy and not sacrifice; cheerful obedience and not spiritual navel gazing.

    It comes down to understanding Charis (grace) and that means we are becoming JUST LIKE GOD. Jesus was full of Grace, and now my mission is to grow in his grace, becoming like him in every way.

    II Corinthians 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV
     
  12. profet

    profet New Member

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    scott1 -
    A point to being crucified? I guess a graphic reminder of the fact that we kill just about everything we can find is point enough for me. Doesn't matter whether a person is presenting us with a wonderful spiritual way of living or is attacking us, we'll find an excuse to kill 'im anyway.
    Look... I know that 99.999% of Christians believe that Christ dying on the cross and rising again are the two seminal events that define the religion, but I am one of .001% that doesn't think it matters in the slightest.
    Face it... being immune to death or having the power to overcome it is a HUMAN notion of divinity based on OUR fears and just about every god in history has had those powers. If you discard personal faith in one specific religion, you can see that there is nothing special about that power; In fact immortality was a presumed trait of any god in the time of Christ. The addition of the resurrection to Christ's story seems a blatant attempt to appeal to potential converts who lived with that presumption. It worked... but we killed 100,000 Iraqis in the last 2 years... are we a Christian nation like our presidents seems to imply?
    What he said about how we should behave and how he behaved himself are far more important than whether he properly fulfilled the words of some raving luny Jewish prophet from a century before he was born or whether he said "How's it going ladies!" to the women at the tomb after he had supposedly died.
    In other words... I reject the notion that to be a Christian one has to believe in the resurrection. IMO, to be a Christian, one has to follow Christ. Not because he is God or because he has power over our biggest fear... but because he was right.
     
  13. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    You make a good point, Profet. We need to follow Jesus because He lived as one should, set a perfect example for us, and preached the right message. But I think you are drastically (and that's an understatement) underestimating the imortance of the resurrection. And I think the Apostle Paul would agree with me there.

    I Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
     
  14. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    That's where you get into trouble, looking at it in a very secular fashion. Jesus was speaking to His Father from the cross. Although this is the subject of another thread, the God-head is three person (God The Father,God The Son and God The Holy Spirit). The reason why Jesus proclaimed "I and My Father are one" in John 10:30 is because the have the same power and attributes and this would also apply to the Holy Spirit. If you ever wanted to know the way God The Father would have reacted to a given situation, just look at the life of Jesus. :)
     
  15. profet

    profet New Member

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    IMO, the part of the Bible that defines Christian beliefs begins at Matthew and ends at John. Before Matthew we are looking at Jewish history that can be used as background for analyses of Christs teachings, yet it is not Christ's teaching. After John we are looking at the history of the early church - followers spreading the teachings as they saw them and offering explanations to people who lived very differant lives than we do.
    Why would I want to base my spiritual path on interpretations of Christ's teachings given to people who lived in city in an empire that no longer exists by people who were not Christ? I can go straight to the teachings that are being interpreted and make them relevant to me.
    Also, Paul fails to define what a ressurrection is. I have felt what I believe to be Christ's presence before... but I felt it in the exact way Christ told us we could: Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
    While discussing Christian teachings with others I definately felt the presence of a third independant spirit or idea rising in my mind that was only made palpable by the mingling of 4 other people's spiritual ideas. I could have read the Bible for 10 years and not have felt that presense.
    That alternate idea (obviously) affected me quite a bit. So was this Chirst and is the ability to feel his presence even though he is dead what he meant by 'the ressurection' or does resurrection have to mean 'dead bodes rising and coming back to life' just because that makes us body oriented people feel more immortal.
    Don't mean to be derogatory of your beliefs. As you can see I have issues with the Bible as literal history and as word of God :banghead3 .
    IMO, If one can behave in the way Christ taught without believing in 'the resurrection' then it is not important or if one is free to define the resurrection as something other than ego-massaging immortality worship, then it can be useful.
    Maybe I will find some more significance to it with further contemplation, but I have a lot of peacemaking, humility and loving my neighbor as myself to practice before I feel it neccessary to worry about that.
     
  16. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    What are your 'Issues'?:)
     
  17. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    OK.... but WHY?

    What was he "right" about?

    What's the point of following Jesus over, say.... any other philosophy?

    You just happen to like Christ's better than those?

    Thanks in advance for answering... we haven't had a ".001%" Christian like yourself around to chat with before.... this has been a great education if your beliefs... bless you for sharing with us!

    Peace.... from the other 99.999% of us;) ,
    Scott
     
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  18. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Scott1 again.:clap

     
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  19. profet

    profet New Member

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    I'm sure I could be a Buddhist if I came from a culture where that made sense to me or follow Sufi Islam if I was raised in a culture where that made sense to me. They have the same basic message as Christ and I know some people that follow each of them that live more like Christ than 90% of Christians. Those philosophies don't resonate with me though. I was born Catholic and did 12 years of Catholic school so it may be that I just had a 'Jesus neural pathway' burned into my way of thinking. Once I realized that is the only path I was going to understand though, I wanted to see what he taught and how he lived as opposed to the way organized religion presents his teachings and found no fault with his teachings at all. They make sense for a happy, peaceful life. The only thng that bothers me is that so many so-called-Christians don't care a whit about living like Christ and are more concerned with the endd of the world and judging other people.
    (Both no nos according to Jesus.)
     
  20. profet

    profet New Member

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    That the Bible isn't literal and is not the word of God )(
     
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