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Christian: Sola Scriptura

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Uncertaindrummer, Jul 6, 2005.

  1. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    How? When? Did He just come down to earth and rip some books out of the KJV? Your answer explains nothing. I'd also point out that preservation of a text doesn't usually entail ripping bits out of it.

    I'm well aware of what Koine Greek is. I've actually heard it spoken and sung rather frequently, have you? For your information, the Greek Orthodox Church (both the Church of Greece and the Ecumenical Patriarchate) still use Koine in the Liturgy and, as such, the Scriptures are read untranslated. My Romanian Bible is likewise translated directly from Koine. I've never heard of a Classical Greek Bible. I strongly doubt one exists seeing as the language was no longer used by the time the New Testament was written - it's like telling me that I can find a version of Shakespeare written in Chaucerian English.

    What form of Greek Plato endorsed is, of course, completely irrelevant. He wasn't a Christian, had nothing to do with the Bible and, indeed, died in 347 BC - that's before even the Septuagint was written. Only you know why you brought him up, but I can assure you that no English translation comes from Classical Greek. I actually use the NKJV myself for my English translation (which is just a less archaic KJV), but I use it with the 'apocrypha', because no decent Orthodox translation currently exists. I'm certainly not arguing some trendy modern version like the NIV is better than the KJV. The argument isn't about translations but what constitutes Scripture.

    This one's priceless. I'll be sure to forward this one on to my old Greek priest as he could probably do with a chuckle. The official text used by the Greek church is still Koine. They do not use modern (and certainly not classical) Greek. Even the Septuagint they use has not been updated so that it is still noticeably more archaic than the NT. The only place in which the Koine texts disappeared is in your imagination, I'm afraid. We may not have the original manuscripts, but I'd certainly trust a Koine copy of a Koine text over some supposed Gothic copy of a Koine text, particularly given the history of the Goths' relation to Christianity - they were overwhelmingly Arian heretics.

    James
     
  2. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Shame you wrote this as I was typing the other reply, or I'd have included it. The word (amartia) translated sin in the Bible does indeed mean 'to miss the mark', even in Koine. This is not wrong at all. It is not, however, just a sports term as you put it. In the moral realm it means failing to live up to a standard - for Christians this means falling short of God's standards that He set for us. In what way does that differ from the idea of sin in English?

    I'm sure you're right that sin was rampant in Plato's time, as it was before and ever since, but I fail to see the relevance. He died something like 50 years before even the Pentateuch was translated into Koine and 350 years before Christ. I'm still baffled as to why you think he has any relevance to this topic whatsoever.

    James
     
  3. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Well if you agree with him, perhaps I can get a more sensible answer from you. How and when did God achieve this and how do you know that the removal of the books was God's will and not an action contrary to God's will perpetrated by a few Protestant reformers?

    Now that's possibly the wisest remark in this thread.

    James
     
  4. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    When Koine Greek ruled the world, God had the Scriptures in Koine Greek. When English ruled the world, God gave us the Scriptures in English.

    Way back when, when people were plagiarizing the Autographs, and/or writing their own uninspired books, God had to filter out what was true Scripture, and what wasn't - (Luke 1:1-4).

    Today, in English, we have the 'final product'.
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    It doesn't. Read what I wrote. I said 'Wrong's Concordance' said it means to miss the mark. I have no problem at all with the Koine Greek.

    He doesn't, James. I just mentioned him in passing. He only, as far as I know, helped popularize Classical Greek and had nothing to do with translating Scripture.

    Let's stay focused here please. We're chasing rabbits.

    The only thing I'm saying is that the KJV comes to us from God via the following line:

    Autographs --- Koine Greek --- Gothic Language --- English

    It bypasses Classical Greek altogether.
     
  6. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    You still don't get it. All Bibles bypass classical Greek because no Bible is written in that language - it was dead when the NT was written. I'll write the next aprt really bold so you don't miss it:

    The Greeks still use untranslated and unmodernised Koine in the Liturgy.

    Now, you can't claim to have missed that. You may claim that the KJV comes via the Goths (I doubt it and would be instantly dubious of anything that did given their Arianism) but even if it did, the two churches I've worshipped in in the last few years would have a far shorter chain. In my current one it would go:

    Autographs - Koine - Romanian (note the lack of Goths)

    and in my last one:

    Autographs - Koine (and that's it).

    I have no idea where you're getting your historical and linguistic information, but it's pure fantasy. And on the matter of amartia, I think I trust my old Greek priest, who speaks Koine fluently and uses it several times a week over your opinion if you don't mind. Your not liking the root of the word really makes no difference - it does mean 'miss the mark' but in the religious context that is sin.

    James
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well I'm certainly glad to hear that. Like I said, the autographs were in Koine Greek.

    I'm not sure what the problem here is. You have your bible and I have mine.

    Opinions aside, the fact is then, if your above post is correct, is that YOUR scripture went from Koine to Romanian, and mine went from Koine to Gothic.

    For you to say then that mine is "pure fantasy" is a cheap shot. You need to take your beef up with God, not me. I didn't chose where the KJV came from, God did.[/QUOTE]
     
  8. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    You misunderstood. I didn't say the KJV was pure fantasy, I said that your linguistic and historical information - i.e. your classical Greek Bible idea - was. I would never say the KJV is fantasy as the English Bible I use is just an updated version of it. Sorry if you were offended by what I wrote, but I certainly did not mean what you thought I did. In any case, and now that you seem to accept that the Koine manuscripts did survive to modern times, this is a side issue. The real one is, what was the rationale for later reformers reducing the number of books in the KJV? And please try to come up with something. God did it is a non-answer unless you expect me to believe that He personally ripped the books out.

    James
     
  9. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well, James, I don't know how to better state the case than what I have already told you. If the Bible isn't going to convince you in Psalm 12:6-7, I sure can't. I'm not trying to be funny; I'm just trying to 'get out of the way' and let God speak for Himself. After all, He put it in writing.

    I love your question though: "What is the rationale?" A very good question, and I can just see God up in Heaven going: I can answer! I can answer! Psalm 12:6-7! Psalm 12:6-7!
     
  10. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    You have still dealt with NOTHING, av. First off, this "gothic" nonsense you speak of, no one else has even heard of. Care to provide any DETAILS?

    Second, you haven't dealt with a single question I posed earlier. You never even told me how you know Matthew wrote Matthew, considering that the Gospel of Matthew is an anonymous book.
     
  11. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    :rolleyes: Funny how none of this is revealed in Scripture, which you are claiming holds everything we NEED to know.
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    For pity's sake! You want me to tell you how I know Matthew wrote Matthew just because you say it's an anonymous book??? Are you accusing me lying or what? I say Matthew wrote Matthew because Matthew's name is the title of Matthew's book. It's Matthew's diary, so to speak; written with emphasis on Jesus, not himself. I'm not sure what more I can add here to answer your question.

    And as far as this 'Gothic nonsense' you mentioned --- all I can say is: do the research yourself, then, if you don't believe me.
     
  13. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Why didn't he do it right the first time? Did God make...a mistake!
     
  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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  15. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    NO IT'S NOT!!! This just shows your ignorance in these matters. NOWHERE in the actual Text does Matthew take credit for writing it. The TITLE pages of the Bible are no mroe inspired than the table of contents. NOWHERE is it inspired by God to say "I, Matthew, wrote this book", so again I ask you, how do you know Matthew wrote that book, especially in light of recent historical scholarship which shows he might not have written it after all?
     
  16. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Yes, it is, Drummer. This is Basic Hermeneutics 101 I'm espousing here. Just because it doesn't say 'I, MATTHEW' in the text, doesn't mean anyone knew who wrote it. And even if no one did know who wrote it, God did, and He made sure it was included as part of our Bibles today.

    This is nothing more than 1 Peter 5:6 in action.

    Since you're an authority on who didn't write it, tell me who did write it.

    And if you answer with a website, or give me any of that Q stuff, I'll just assume you don't know. I'd like a name, please.
     
  17. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Wousers!!
    Makes me wonder if you are even aware that hundreds of books were being circulated in early Christendom.

    ~Victor
     
  18. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Yes --- so was Luke --- Luke 1:1-4

    FORASMUCH AS MANY HAVE TAKEN IN HAND TO SET FORTH IN ORDER A DECLARATION OF THINGS WHICH ARE MOST SURELY BELIEVED AMONG US, EVEN AS THEY DELIVERED THEM UNTO US, WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING WERE EYEWITNESSES, AND MINISTERS OF THE WORD; IT SEEMED GOOD TO ME ALSO, HAVING HAD PERFECT UNDERSTANDING OF ALL THINGS FROM THE VERY FIRST, TO WRITE UNTO THEE IN ORDER, MOST EXCELLENT THEOPHILUS, THAT THOU MIGHTEST KNOW THE CERTAINTY OF THOSE THINGS, WHEREIN THOU HAST BEEN INSTRUCTED.
     
  19. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    What exactly do you think this is proving?

    ~Victor
     
  20. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    • Hundreds of books were being written - as you said
    • Written about things 'most surely believed'
    • Delivered to Luke, et al, for authentication, since...
    • ...they were 'eyewitnesses' ...
    • ... and ministers of the word
    • Luke had 'perfect' [complete] understanding of all things right from the git-go
    • He conveyed them to Theophilus
    • So Theophilus could 'know the certainty' also
     
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