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Christian Salvation

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Cynic, Sep 10, 2005.

  1. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    hi Katzpur,

    while reading your post some questions came up to my mind and i hope that you don't mind to answer me. (( Michel please don't give me a whole website to read because i prefer short answers to this rather than reading a huge passage about it :D )).

    How do i know which one is the person whom God gave him/her the authority to do so (Baptize)?

    Is anyone work in the church for example supposed to be authorized by God?

    If one day i worked in the church as a christian can God choose me to Baptize and who will tell me whether i got the permission or not? The head of the church maybe will tell me that God accepted me or there is another way to know that?


    Peace ... :)
     
  2. ChrisP

    ChrisP Veteran Member

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    Good question. What would happen if you were the only person in the middle of nowhere, not a Christian to be seen, and you wanted to be baptised?
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, Truth.

    I can give you one perspective and one alone -- mine. You will need to realize that different Christians see this matter differently.

    When Jesus Christ was here on earth, He established His Church and organized it upon a specific foundation of Prophets and Apostles. He personally gave them the authority to baptize and perform other sacred ordinances. They also had the authority to ordain others to do this work. There are a number of places in the Bible where we are told that no one can simply take this authority upon himself. It can only be conferred upon someone by someone else who already holds it.

    As a Latter-day Saint, I believe that this authority was lost shortly after the deaths of the Apostles and that the Church Christ established fell into Apostasy. For nearly two thousand years, the Church operated without this authority. Hence, the ordinances that were performed were not approved by God. I believe that this authority has since been restored to the earth, by Jesus Christ himself. And I believe that it is held today by Priesthood holders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So I guess that would be my answer.

    I'm not sure I understand you, so correct me if I've misunderstood your question. There are many, many things that members of Jesus Christ's Church can do without having been given specific authority. God shouldn't have to command or authorize anyone to serve others in any capacity possible. There are just certain things that require authority. There things as called "saving ordinances" or "sacraments."

    No. You would have to be a worthy member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, first of all. Simply working in the Church for a day would not be sufficient. You would have to have faith in Jesus Christ and in His power to atone for your sins, you would have to repent of your sins, be baptized by someone in authority, and be confirmed a member of the Church, thereby receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. This, too, would have to be done by one having authority. You could then be ordained (by one who held the Melchizedek Priesthood) to the Aaronic Priesthood. This ordination would give you the authority to baptize.

    The bottom line is that there is order in everything within Christ's Church.

    Kathryn
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I guess you'd wait until you were not the only person around, in the middle of nowhere, not a Christian to be seen. Then you would ask to be baptized. ;)
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I see true repentence as originating in the heart and being demonstrated through one's behavior.

    There is only change to the extent that you want there to be change. Again, I think the condition of one's heart is the important thing. If there is sincere remorse for wrong-doing, one is less likely to repeat the offence in the future. This is not to say that there won't be times when we fall short of where we ultimately want to be, so repentence does have to be an on-going thing. Continued improvement, not instant success is what we need to strive for.
     
  6. ChrisP

    ChrisP Veteran Member

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    Patience is not a virtue I possess :D
     
  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Your desire to be baptized would be sufficient.:)
     
  8. Cynic

    Cynic Well-Known Member

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    So how, besides feeling remorseful, is the heart and mind conditioned?

    Why is all sin the same in God's eyes, whether it is a lie or a murder?

    What does God look at when it comes to sin?

    Do you think there may be similarities bewteen a lie and a murder?

    Why are works worthless in God's eyes? Perhaps it's not the lying and murdering that makes sin a sin, but perhaps the motive or hidden agenda for doing them?

    What if I told you the truth, but my motive was to hurt your feelings? What if I lied to you, but my motive was to keep you from being hurt?

    Why was it taboo to eat the food offerings in the temple, yet it was okay when David and others ate the food from the temple?

    Why did Jesus point out the false motives of the pharisees and sadacees?

    If there is no change, then whats the point? If I felt remorseful because I cheated on my girlfriend, but I still cheated on her continuously, what is the point?

    Also I think that in order to change, you have to understand what it is about yourself that you are changing.

    That leads to my next question. What is it that you are changing?
     
  9. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Thanks alot ... :)
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'd say remorse would have to be coupled with a commitment to do better in the future.

    I don't believe it is. Other Christians may.

    I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I believe that God would take virtually everything He could into consideration. I realize that's a vague answer, but I'm not quite following your line of thinking. Could you be more specific?

    I suppose so. Both would generally involve disregard for someone else's rights and feelings.

    Again, I don't think works are worthless in God's eyes. I believe they are a critical component for salvation. And I agree that motive would be one of the things God considers when looking at sin (if that's what you were getting at in your previous question).

    I don't think God sees everything in black and white, but in shades of gray. Does that answer your question?

    I have no idea. Sorry, I can't help you on this one.

    Because, as I said up front, the condition of one's heart counts for a lot with God.

    There would be no point. That's why remorse, in and of itself, is only half of what's required of us.

    Absolutely.

    The condition of your heart and, as the result of a sincere change, your behavior.
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Same here. We evidently both need to work on that.
     
  12. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Acts 16:30-31...Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...

    Did you hear the good news? Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for all the sins of the world and rose again three days later? Are you willing to trust in what he did on the cross, that it is true, that he paid for your sins? Are you willing to accept it as a totally free gift? (Rom. 5:16-18, Eph. 2:8-9)

    Then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou SHALT be saved!

    John 6:47 Verily, verily I say unto thee, He that believeth on me HATH everlasting life.
     
  13. Cynic

    Cynic Well-Known Member

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  14. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    So therefore all the previous Archbishops and Popes have been rendered useless in your opinion Katz person?

    SO, how did Jesus "restore" this authority? Did he approach a specific indivisual and say "Okay dude, you may have the authority now, start new"?
     
  15. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Paul never says anything of the sort, although he does say we cannot be saved by works of the law. This is put into context though by James assertion that we are not saved by Faith alone. Paul does teach that works cannot save us--they can't--but then again neither can. We need God's grace, Faith and Works. We can't get by on just one or two.

    As for the topic: Jesus says not everyone who cries "Lord Lord" will be saved, but only those who do the will of the Father. So how can one claim that those who cry "Lord Lord" (i.e. just believing in Jesus) will be saved?
     
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  16. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Because whether a lie or murder, it separates us from God and separation from God is death.


    Yes...lies can destroy lives just as completely as a murder can. Sometimes murder would have been more merciful (in my opinion).

    Works are not worthless. Works without faith are worthless.

    I can only go by what the Bible teaches. A lie is a lie.

    I'm not a bible scholar but was David considered a priest of the temple? I read something that said some of the food offerings were for the temple priests store and some were to be eaten by those offering the food.

     
  17. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    why are you guys quoting the bible to Cynic? he doesn't believe in it. Why don't you do what the master did.
     
  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    "Christians" tell you a lot of things that aren't in the Bible, Cynic. You can't believe everything you hear.

    I'm not sure if you're trying to trip me up or what. :confused: It's not up to me to decide what's moral and/or justified and what isn't. But, as I said before, I believe that God does not see all of our actions as either black or white. I'm afraid I don't see why that's so hard to understand.

    Good works done for the wrong reason probably are worth little. Even when done for the right reason, our good works are insufficient to save us.

    You got it.

    For the reason you just stated.

    Love for your fellow man.

    Sounds good to me. I'll watch for your next response.

    Kathryn
     
  19. Cynic

    Cynic Well-Known Member

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    I Know.


    Not at all.

    Because the work, the action, can contradict what a person truely thinks or feels (Their agenda). When determining the integrity of a person, such things become unreliable.

    The Pharisees fasted for themselves. Not for God, not for anybody else. Their motive/agenda/cause was based on self interest.

    Now if you analyze the agendas of biblical characters, you may notice a pattern. All sin apparently seems to be motivated by self interest. When You analyze Jesus, his agendas are spotless. Nothing he did seemed motivated by self interest.

    A Selfish heart / A Selfless heart

    The reason why a person does something, reflects their integrity on a profound level, wherease the work/action can be contradictive and therefore unreliable in determining the integrity of a person.

    If a person accepts Jesus, so they can get into heaven, then they're not accepting Jesus for Jesus, not for anybody else, they're doing it for themselves. Ever see the movie Constantine?

    A selfless heart becomes morally sound, because the person is not driven by the ego and by their own selfish/emotional needs. Rather they are concerned by the needs of others and are driven by loving kindness.

    You can love someone selfishly. Love then becomes currupted (fake, untrue).

    "18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man." - Mathews 15:18-20 NKJ

    18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?" 20 And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man." - Mark 18-23 NKJ

    What I am getting at is the fact that all these things: "evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness", describes a person who lives for themselves in selfishness, with some to little concern for others. All these things, branch off from a selfish heart with selfish motives. It's narcissism. So when a person repents, what are they really repenting from? From the sins alone, or also from having a selfish heart with wrong motives, which is a major contributer to committing a sin? Evil, from what Jesus says, seems to originate from the heart. What makes a sin sinful, despite breaking some law? what makes it wrong on a rational level?

    Sure a lie is a lie, but can the motive determine whether if a lie is justifiable? What if I had to lie, in order to save your life? What if I had to kill someone, in order to protect you and your family? Then what if I killed someone for their wallet?

    I was busy in the past couple of days because I had to be a DJ for a community event (+ I also took a break from RF), but I'll try to piece together what I'm trying to say with certain scripture.
     
  20. Cynic

    Cynic Well-Known Member

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    I've noticed that no one has further replied since my absense. Are my statements something already obvious, does anybody have objections towards my arguement?

    So salvation is belief in Jesus, doing good works, and also because of God's grace, baptism and repentance.
     
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