Christian: Real Presence

[writer]

100 The claim the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a theological stance.
I agree. And add the word "superstition"

If it "profits nothing," then why participate in it?
The Lord Jesus never said His Table, His Supper, "profits nothing."
The Lord Jesus said "the flesh profits nothing" in John 6:63. Referring to the notion of physically eating His physical flesh.
John 6 is about eating and drinking His flesh and blood. It is not about the practice of the Lord's Supper (Mt 26:25; 1 Cor 10-11)

That profound spiritual experience is evidence that Christ is really present.
That's why Christ died and rose from the grave. He doesn't need to be physically present to be present. As Paul wrote: "the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit." And the Present One said to His believers: "I'm with you all the days until the consummation of the age," at the end of Matthew.
Thanks

 

[sojourner]

100 The claim the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a theological stance.
I agree. And add the word "superstition"

If it "profits nothing," then why participate in it?
The Lord Jesus never said His Table, His Supper, "profits nothing."
The Lord Jesus said "the flesh profits nothing" in John 6:63. Referring to the notion of physically eating His physical flesh.
John 6 is about eating and drinking His flesh and blood. It is not about the practice of the Lord's Supper (Mt 26:25; 1 Cor 10-11)

That profound spiritual experience is evidence that Christ is really present.
That's why Christ died and rose from the grave. He doesn't need to be physically present to be present. As Paul wrote: "the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit." And the Present One said to His believers: "I'm with you all the days until the consummation of the age," at the end of Matthew.
Thanks

Why do you add the word, "superstition?"

But eating and drinking are physical activities. We are physical beings. Christ was a physical being. In the Eucharist we physically eat and drink. If that physical activity "profits nothing" -- if it's the spiritual activity that "counts," then why participate in the physical eating and drinking at all? Why not just sit around and "be spiritual?"

Of course he does. That's why he instituted the Supper. Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. When we participate in that physical eating and drinking, we are physically participating in Christ. It's a way of mediating a spiritual thing in a physical way, so that we, who are physical, can understand it and participate in it.

 

[writer]

Why do you add the word, "superstition?"
cuz "This's My body" is symbolism and obviously so

But eating and drinking are physical activities. We are physical beings. Christ was a physical being. In the Eucharist we physically eat and drink. If that physical activity "profits nothing"
The Lord never said eating 'n drinking at His Table profits nothin

-- if it's the spiritual activity that "counts,"
the Spirit gives life (Jn 6:63; 1 Cor 15:45; 2 Cor 3:6; Nicene Creed)

then why participate in the physical eating and drinking at all?
cuz it counts (Mt 26:26). It's not a matter o' choice. The Lord said "do this"

Why not just sit around
cuz the Lord said "do this" also

Christ is truly present in the Eucharist.
He likewise's truly present outside His Supper meetin,

When we participate in that physical eating and drinking, we are physically participating in Christ.
believers should always be "physically participating in Christ."
Since the apostle experienced and wrote:
"the body's for the Lord and the Lord for the body. Don't you know that your bodies are members o' Christ? He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Your body's a temple of the Holy Spirit. For we've been bought with a price. So then glorify God in your body...If we live by the Spirit, let's also walk by the Spirit," 1 Cor 6; Gal 5

It's a way of mediating a spiritual thing in a physical way, so that we, who are physical, can understand it and participate in it.
Thats fair. But it primarily should be a matter o' showin.
From my readin 'n experience.
Thanx

 

[sojourner]

Why do you add the word, "superstition?"
cuz "This's My body" is symbolism and obviously so

That in no way prevents Christ from being truly present in the elements.

Christ is truly present in the Eucharist.
He likewise's truly present outside His Supper meetin,

So, you're conceding that Christ is really present in the Eucharist?

When we participate in that physical eating and drinking, we are physically participating in Christ.
believers should always be "physically participating in Christ."
Since the apostle experienced and wrote:
"the body's for the Lord and the Lord for the body. Don't you know that your bodies are members o' Christ? He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Your body's a temple of the Holy Spirit. For we've been bought with a price. So then glorify God in your body...If we live by the Spirit, let's also walk by the Spirit," 1 Cor 6; Gal 5

Then, cannot the bread and wine be a "temple" for the Holy Spirit?

But it primarily should be a matter o' showin.

Expand on that, please.

 

[writer]

in no way prevents...
contrarily: One Body, Eph 4:4

you're conceding...?
Christ should be present at His Table, or else iz proly not His Table.
Whether you two're together anytime's kinda up to u (cf 2 Cor 3:16-17)

cannot the bread and wine be a "temple" for the Holy Spirit?
Absolutely not. God's not pantheism. Nor did He create anyone but us in His image, and accordin to His likeness, to contain Him.
God became a man. Not a vegetable

Expand...
Thank u.
"This do unto the Remembrance o' Me" (1 Cor 11:26) means symbolically.
"As often as you eat this bread and drink the cup you Declare the Lord's death until He comes" means pictorially.
"Rembrance, declare."
Thanks

 

[sojourner]

contrarily: One Body, Eph 4:4

The thrust here is that many people live in unity -- in one Body. If you use this scripture to say that Christ only has one Body, then Christ is not present in any of us, because Christ can obviously only be in one place at a time. One can't treat the same passage both metaphorically and literalistically.

cannot the bread and wine be a "temple" for the Holy Spirit?
Absolutely not. God's not pantheism. Nor did He create anyone but us in His image, and accordin to His likeness, to contain Him.
God became a man. Not a vegetable

Do you mean "pantheism" or "panentheism?" In a pantheistic sense, God can be (and is) present under the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

"This do unto the Remembrance o' Me" (1 Cor 11:26) means symbolically.
"As often as you eat this bread and drink the cup you Declare the Lord's death until He comes" means pictorially.
"Rembrance, declare."

In your interpretation. To those who practice anamnesis, Christ is made real to us, under the form of bread and wine, so Christ is really present in the physical.
In what way does this not "show" or "proclaim" the brokenness of Christ?

 

[writer]

Body
The Body o' Christ's not a metaphor. It's His organic members, connected to Him by faith, by the Spirit, in their spirit.

in a panthesitic sense...Eucharist
Neither God, nor Christ, nor the Spirit, nor the church, nor the Scriptures of Genesis-Malachi and Matt-Revelation
r pantheism

physical. anamnesis. brokeness.
God created man in God's image to contain God. God became man. God still is man, Jesus Christ. And will ever be the Son of Man. That man in resurrection became "pneumatic," the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45), to bear all who believe in His name anew. And then spread out from their center. Not from their tummy. Incarnation's not an end in itself. It's for resurrection, a new creation.
"Anamnesis" = "remembrance" and "remembrance" means remembrance. At least in the Bible.
Christ's body was broken only once. For all.
According to Hebrews 10:12.
Thanx Sojourner

 

[writer]

i thoughta another good way o' sayin it too: If Christ were presently physically present in His own body at His Table or here on earth, He wouldn't need to "come" physically.
Mt 26:29; 1 Cor 11:26.
Thanks

 

[sojourner]

Sooo, in all of this "summing up" I've read in your last posts, I still have not understood you to say that the real presence of Christ is not present in the Eucharist. Am I to understand that you believe that Christ is really present in the Eucharist?

 

[writer]

109 I've read in your last posts, I still have not understood you to say that the real presence of Christ is not present in the Eucharist. Am I to understand that you believe that Christ is really present in the Eucharist?
as i mentioned to u in pos 105, dear Sojourner: i understand that whether u're personally w/ Jesus Christ, or Jesus Christ's w/ u personally at anytime, including during your Eucharist time, iz up to u (cf 2 Cor 3:16-17). Thank you

 

[sojourner]

109 I've read in your last posts, I still have not understood you to say that the real presence of Christ is not present in the Eucharist. Am I to understand that you believe that Christ is really present in the Eucharist?
as i mentioned to u in pos 105, dear Sojourner: i understand that whether u're personally w/ Jesus Christ, or Jesus Christ's w/ u personally at anytime, including during your Eucharist time, iz up to u (cf 2 Cor 3:16-17). Thank you

Doesn't that passage imply that the presence is already there? And that we perceive that presence when we "turn to the Lord," (such as we do in Holy Communion?)

I disagree with your last phrase. The presence of Christ is not up to us. We don't "make" Christ present. But, as your reference says, our perception of the presence of Christ is up to us...

You haven't really answered the question, except to say that either Christ's presence is up to me, or the perception of Christ's presence is up to me -- I'm confused as to which you mean.

Additionally, is Christ's presence ever anything more than a personal perception? Is Christ's presence not available to the ecclesia, as it was by the seaside, and when he broke bread with the group following the resurrection?

 

[writer]

Doesn't that passage imply that the presence is already there?
Whenever the heart turns to the Lord, the veil's taken away. And the Lord's the Spirit; and where the Spirit o' the Lord is, there's freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholdin and reflecting like a mirror the glory o' the Lord, are bein transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit.
The Lord's presence is wherever the Lord is. And the Lord Spirit's joined to the spirit of whoever believed into Him, wherever they are

And that we perceive that presence when we "turn to the Lord," (such as we do in Holy Communion?)
Whether u or i turn to the Lord anytime, includin "Holy Communion,"'s up to us.
To turn to the Lord is jus to contact Him, to pray to Him, to receive from Him, to open to Him. No?

I disagree with your last phrase. The presence of Christ is not up to us. We don't "make" Christ present. But, as your reference says, our perception of the presence of Christ is up to us...
Then that's whut i mean. One "makes" Christ real, or present, to one, by faith. Since faith's the substantiation o' things hoped for, the conviction o' things not seen

Additionally, is Christ's presence ever anything more than a personal perception? Is Christ's presence not available to the ecclesia, as it was by the seaside, and when he broke bread with the group following the resurrection?
The ecclesia, as were His disciples by the sea after He rose, is persons. Inhabited by Another Person.
Thanx

 

[sojourner]

The ecclesia, as were His disciples by the sea after He rose, is persons. Inhabited by Another Person.

But, if they are of the "same mind" (and Body), does it not make sense that Christ should be present to the Body as a whole?

 

[writer]

In My Father's house are many abodes; if it weren't so, I'd've told you...so that where I am you also may be.
The ekklesia's the house of the livin God, the pillar 'n base o' the truth, 'n confessedly, great is the mystery o' godliness: He who was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.
We who are many are one Body in Christ, 'n individually members one o' another.
...So also is the Christ (1 Cor 12:12; Rm 12; 1 Tim 3; Jn 14)

 

[sojourner]

That didn't answer my question.

 

[writer]

is the Spirit" wrote the apostle. Not physical bread (cf Jn 6:9, 26, 49, 63, 68).
Az i wrote u often b4 on this question: "This's My body" (Mt 26) is symbolism.
Even if bread on the table were literally Christ's physical flesh, or even if u coulda run up to Jesus in 30s AD 'n taken a bite outa His leg, it'd "profit u (and Him) zero;" (Jn 6:63). "The Spirit gives life" and "the Lord is the Spirit," and "where the Spirit o' the Lord is, there's freedom."
Jesus Christ is neither inanimate nor dumb, nor inhabiting inanimate or dumb things. He's risen.
Thanks S

 

[sojourner]

is the Spirit" wrote the apostle. Not physical bread (cf Jn 6:9, 26, 49, 63, 68).
Az i wrote u often b4 on this question: "This's My body" (Mt 26) is symbolism.
Even if bread on the table were literally Christ's physical flesh, or even if u coulda run up to Jesus in 30s AD 'n taken a bite outa His leg, it'd "profit u (and Him) zero;" (Jn 6:63). "The Spirit gives life" and "the Lord is the Spirit," and "where the Spirit o' the Lord is, there's freedom."
Jesus Christ is neither inanimate nor dumb, nor inhabiting inanimate or dumb things. He's risen.
Thanks S

So, is Christ, or isn't Christ, truly present in the Eucharist?

 

[writer]

In your experience: thas up to u.

(Also may be relevant whut u mean by "Eucharist:" I.e. like your post 111, or like your 104. Thanx)

 

[sojourner]

In your experience: thas up to u.

(Also may be relevant whut u mean by "Eucharist:" I.e. like your post 111, or like your 104. Thanx)

You appear to be hedging your bets. You seem unwilling to say that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. You also seem unwilling to say that he's not. One's perception is fine for recognizing such presence, but really has nothing to do with effecting such presence. Can you provide a "yes" or "no" answer to the question, "Is Christ truly present in the Eucharist?" Or does it really depend upon one's perception?

 

[writer]

You appear to be hedging your bets.
you're mistaken

You seem unwilling to say that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist.
What Eucharist?

You also seem unwilling to say that he's not.
I'm willing to say whatever you'll hear.
What "Eucharist"?

One's perception is fine for recognizing such presence, but really has nothing to do with effecting such presence.
"Faith," nor "perception," was my word. Since "God's economy's in faith" and "faith's the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen"
are the apostle's word.
In any case, I'm not speaking there of the bread and wine. But of the place or time or situation. In other words: i'm speakin of u.
Thanks