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Christian: Real Presence

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Scott1, Aug 31, 2004.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    The doctrine of the Real Presence asserts that in the Holy Eucharist, Jesus is literally and wholly present—body and blood, soul and divinity—under the appearances of bread and wine.

    1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).

    What do you believe, and why?

    Peace in Christ,
    Scott
     
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  2. JenyTori

    JenyTori New Member

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    I totally believe in the Real Presence. Beyond the fact that the Holy Spirit guides the church in all truths and professes the Real Presence...John 6 is very clear. And Our Lord said many times "this is my body"....what a gift He has given his people.
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hello and welcome JenyTori! Thanks for your input.

    How does this belief strengthen your faith (if it does)? Does it bring you closer to Christ?

    Scott
     
  4. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    Do you think, though, that this is not really scientifically accurate anymore, knowing what we do with the laws of physics and such... or is it a "mystical" experience beyond scientific understanding?
     
  5. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    This thread is a bit old..... I'd like to hear from some of our new Christians.
     
  6. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    I think communion is symbolic.

    The breaking of the bread symbolizes the breaking of His body, the pouring of the wine(or grape juice) symbolizes the spilling of His blood. The eating/drinking I believe symbolizes the taking in of Christ and His teachings.
     
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  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply Mr E.

    .... but, why do you believe this?
     
  8. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    It seems to me that in the verses discussing the last supper that Jesus is saying that the bread and wine symbolize His body and blood which would be broken and spillt for mankind.
     
  9. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    OK.... I imagined that would be your answer....

    I am just curious about your take on the early Church... (they believed the Eucharist was not ONLY symbolic).... in relation to what you believe.
     
  10. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    How early? Do any apostles talk about it, or Paul?

    Thanks, I am always willing to change my views if they are incorrect.
     
  11. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Scott,

    Though it's probably pretty easy to guess, but I fall firmly into the camp of the Real Presence.

    Why?

    1). Well, I find it explicitly taught in Scripture.

    2). I find the only people disagreeing with it in the Early Church to have been the Gnostics.

    3). The Apostles seem to have fought against these people in our NT writings. The Fathers who came after them did the same.

    4). When they mentioned doubting its veracity, they treated it as a sine qua non of Christianity...so much so that to disbelieve it was to cut ourselves off from Christ.
     
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Matt. 26:26-28; Mark. 14:22,24; Luke 22;19-20; 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus says, this IS my body and blood. Jesus does not say, this is a symbol of my body and blood.



    Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19-20 - the Greek phrase is "Touto estin to soma mou." This phraseology means "this is actually" or "this is really" my body and blood.

    1 Cor. 11:24 - the same translation is used by Paul - "touto mou estin to soma." The statement is "this is really" my body and blood. Nowhere in Scripture does God ever declare something without making it so.

    Matt. 26:26; Mark. 14:22; Luke 22:19 - to deny the 2,000 year-old Catholic understanding of the Eucharist, Protestants must argue that Jesus was really saying "this represents (not is) my body and blood." However, Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke, had over 30 words for "represent," but Jesus did not use any of them. He used the Aramaic word for "estin" which means "is."

    Matt. 26:28; Mark. 14:24; Luke 22:20 - Jesus' use of "poured out" in reference to His blood also emphasizes the reality of its presence.

    Exodus 24:8 - Jesus emphasizes the reality of His actual blood being present by using Moses' statement "blood of the covenant."

    1 Cor. 10:16 - Paul asks the question, "the cup of blessing and the bread of which we partake, is it not an actual participation in Christ's body and blood?" Is Paul really asking because He, the divinely inspired writer, does not understand? No, of course not. Paul's questions are obviously rhetorical. This IS the actual body and blood. Further, the Greek word "koinonia" describes an actual, not symbolic participation in the body and blood.

    1 Cor. 10:18 - in this verse, Paul is saying we are what we eat. We are not partners with a symbol. We are partners of the one actual body.

    1 Cor. 11:23 - Paul does not explain what he has actually received directly from Christ, except in the case when he teaches about the Eucharist. Here, Paul emphasizes the importance of the Eucharist by telling us he received directly from Jesus instructions on the Eucharist which is the source and summit of the Christian faith.

    1 Cor. 11:27-29 - in these verses, Paul says that eating or drinking in an unworthy manner is the equivalent of profaning (literally, murdering) the body and blood of the Lord. If this is just a symbol, we cannot be guilty of actually profaning (murdering) it. We cannot murder a symbol. Either Paul, the divinely inspired apostle of God, is imposing an unjust penalty, or the Eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ.

    1 Cor. 11:30 - this verse alludes to the consequences of receiving the Eucharist unworthily. Receiving the actual body and blood of Jesus in mortal sin results in actual physical consequences to our bodies.

    1 Cor. 11:27-30 - thus, if we partake of the Eucharist unworthily, we are guilty of literally murdering the body of Christ, and risking physical consequences to our bodies. This is overwhelming evidence for the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. These are unjust penalties if the Eucharist is just a symbol.

    Acts 2:42 - from the Church's inception, apostolic tradition included celebrating the Eucharist (the "breaking of the bread") to fulfill Jesus' command "do this in remembrance of me."

    Acts 20:28 - Paul charges the Church elders to "feed" the Church of the Lord, that is, with the flesh and blood of Christ.

    Matt. 6:11; Luke 11:3 - in the Our Father, we ask God to give us this day our daily bread, that is the bread of life, Jesus Christ.

    Matt. 12:39 – Jesus says no “sign” will be given except the “sign of the prophet Jonah.” While Protestants focus only on the “sign” of the Eucharist, this verse demonstrates that a sign can be followed by the reality (here, Jesus’ resurrection, which is intimately connected to the Eucharist).

    Matt. 19:6 - Jesus says a husband and wife become one flesh which is consummated in the life giving union of the marital act. This union of marital love which reflects Christ's union with the Church is physical, not just spiritual. Thus, when Paul says we are a part of Christ's body (Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23,30-31; Col. 1:18,24), he means that our union with Christ is physical, not just spiritual. But our union with Christ can only be physical if He is actually giving us something physical, that is Himself, which is His body and blood to consume (otherwise it is a mere spiritual union).

    Luke 14:15 - blessed is he who eats this bread in the kingdom of God, on earth and in heaven.

    Luke 22:19, 1 Cor. 11:24-25 - Jesus commands the apostles to "do this," that is, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice, in remembrance of Him.

    Luke 24:26-35 - in the Emmaus road story, Jesus gives a homily on the Scriptures and then follows it with the celebration of the Eucharist. This is the Holy Mass, and the Church has followed this order of the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist for 2,000 years.

    Luke 24:30-31,35 - Jesus is known only in the breaking of bread. Luke is emphasizing that we only receive the fullness of Jesus by celebrating the Eucharistic feast of His body and blood, which is only offered in its fullness by the Catholic Church.

    John 1:14 - literally, this verse teaches that the Word was made flesh and "pitched His tabernacle" among us. The Eucharist, which is the Incarnate Word of God under the appearance of bread, is stored in the tabernacles of Catholic churches around the world.

    John 21:15,17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed" His sheep, that is, with the Word of God through preaching and the Eucharist.

    Acts 9:4-5; 22:8; 26:14-15 – Jesus asks Saul, “Why are you persecuting me?” when Saul was persecuting the Church. Jesus and the Church are one body (Bridegroom and Bride), and we are one with Jesus through His flesh and blood (the Eucharist).

    1 Cor. 12:13 - we "drink" of one Spirit in the Eucharist by consuming the blood of Christ eternally offered to the Father.

    Heb. 10:25,29 - these verses allude to the reality that failing to meet together to celebrate the Eucharist is mortal sin. It is profaning the body and blood of the Lord.

    Heb. 12:22-23 - the Eucharistic liturgy brings about full union with angels in festal gathering, the just spirits, and God Himself, which takes place in the assembly or "ecclesia" (the Church).

    Heb. 12:24 - we couldn't come to Jesus' sprinkled blood if it were no longer offered by Jesus to the Father and made present for us.

    2 Pet. 1:4 - we partake of His divine nature, most notably through the Eucharist - a sacred family bond where we become one. Rev. 2:7; 22:14 - we are invited to eat of the tree of life, which is the resurrected flesh of Jesus which, before, hung on the tree.
     
  13. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:

    On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.

    The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

    When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

    Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

    When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

    Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

    He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts. When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'


    When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.
    I know this does not speak of the Real Presence, but I thought in reading this with my previous post.... it might get you to thinking about how closely your church service is to this one.

    I know that mine holds the same basic form.... 2,000 or so years later.;)
    Scott
     
  14. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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  15. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Mr. Emu,

    Besides the writings of Justin Martyr, you could also read the Letters of Ignatius. Traditionally, they're dated to about the year 107. Ignatius makes a very emphatic point about their importance and about rejecting them.

    The Didache also includes some very specific prayers to be said for the Eucharist, and it dates to the first century or early second. In many ways, this is a Christian handbook on how to conduct oneself that was circulated then.

    They can both be found at either:
    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2 or in the library at http://www.philthompson.net/index2.html
     
  16. Dadball

    Dadball Member

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    "Real Presence" is not clicking with me, can you help me understand?
     
  17. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    The "Real Presence" is teaching that Christ is literally incarnated into the bread and wine in the Eucharist ("Lord's Supper"). The believers then eat Christ's Body and Blood as a means to participate in God's grace. From this, Christ is incarnated in us.
     
  18. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe this will help.... let me know.

    From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


    The presence of Christ by the power of his word and the Holy Spirit

    1373 "Christ Jesus, who died, yes, who was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us," is present in many ways to his Church: in his word, in his Church's prayer, "where two or three are gathered in my name," in the poor, the sick, and the imprisoned,in the sacraments of which he is the author, in the sacrifice of the Mass, and in the person of the minister. But "he is present . . . most especially in the Eucharistic species."

    1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend." In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained." "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."

    1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:

    It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.

    And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:

    Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ's word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.

    1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."

    1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.
     
  19. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    I don't think that Jesus is literally present when we drink the blood. Remeber that Jesus speaks in parables quite often and I think that he wasn't being literal when he said my blood is real drink
     
  20. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    chuck,

    I posted 30 or so quotes from the Bible as to why I believe... and more importantly, the Apostles and early Christians believe..... that Jesus was being quite literal.... but, to each his own.

    Peace in Christ,
    Scott
     
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