If you are lying on your death bed and with your last breath ask Jesus to forgive you and accept his free gift of salvation you will be saved. But you have to understand that you don't have all the answers and place your faith in Jesus. No man has the right or capacity to understand the depth of God's grace. HIS GRACE ABOUNDS for all. But you still have to accept it. He's not going to give it to you if you reject him.sojourner said:So...God is love...but God will only love us if we do something??? How does that equate to grace being free? I have trouble understanding how you can say "Only those of us that deny ourselves...will not be separated from the love of God," and then turn around and proclaim, "His grace abounds." Obviously, you don't think it abounds too much, because you believe it 's withheld from certain people who are "outside."
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Christian: other christians
- Thread starter Corban
- Start date
Sorry, Kathryn, I missed your question; My own personal view is that when he sees God, the atheist will be so inspired that he will immediately want 'to be a part of him'...I don't believe that anyone could see God and not want to be part of him. I haven't seen him (I believe I have felt his presence, and I have certainly heard him), and yet I am totally 'smitten' (if you forgive the expression). Maybe that sounds stupid, but thats the way I feel.Katzpur said:
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Luke 23:42 "Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.'"Dentonz said:
(the NRSV is currently the most accurate translation -- more so than KJV)
He did not confess Jesus as "Lord."
I see grace as unconditional. That's what makes God embody love for me. That's what fills my life with good news and expansive possibility.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
So, does that mean you believe that virtually everyone who has ever lived is automatically destined to "want to be a part of God" at some point in time? I'm also curious as to what you mean by "when he sees God." I know you don't believe that God has a physical form (at least I don't think you do), so what are you expecting to "see"? I understand what you mean when you say you've felt His presence, because I have too. But how would you make a distinction between feeling His presence and seeing Him, if He is, in fact, an invisible entity?michel said:
dawny0826
Mother Heathen
He, unlike the other thief on the cross...KNEW he did wrong. He humbled himself before Christ by asking him to remember him. That's the difference between that thief and the other.sojourner said:
If I'm understanding you correctly...you view that BOTH thiefs were heavenbound...when only ONE acknowledged Christ.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yes. That's correct. But, as I said, my viewpoint is universalist. I understand that it's not very popular from an orthodox point of view. To me, rather than being a literalistic history account, this gospel story is one man's take on what happened at the crucifixion. He writes from his own perspective, almost 100 years after the event, and embellishes as he feels necessary to bring a certain meaning to the story.
It's the inner history, that seeks to involve the heart in the event, not just the outer history of the bare facts of the event. It's more like novel than like newspaper reporting.
Luke tends to use a lot of literary devices in order to get his point across. The one thief served as pariah, and the other thief served as "remnant." The "facts" of the story are used in a theological way to make a theological point, serving Luke's purposes to convey the message that he wishes to convey. That message is the unmitigated mercy of God shown to his beloved children, even in the face of pettiness and evil.
It's the inner history, that seeks to involve the heart in the event, not just the outer history of the bare facts of the event. It's more like novel than like newspaper reporting.
Luke tends to use a lot of literary devices in order to get his point across. The one thief served as pariah, and the other thief served as "remnant." The "facts" of the story are used in a theological way to make a theological point, serving Luke's purposes to convey the message that he wishes to convey. That message is the unmitigated mercy of God shown to his beloved children, even in the face of pettiness and evil.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
I believe, regardless of denomination, that all who trust alone, in Christ alone, are freely saved. Salvation is a free gift, given the moment we believe. Now, having an inheritance or position in the Kingdom of God, and rewards, depends on our works after we were saved. The Bible was written that we may KNOW we HAVE eternal life, right now, and will not go back into condemnation, but are passed from death to life. Our works, be it water baptism, church attendance, sacraments, loving others, God, serving, etc., are a result of our salvation and of our growing in the grace of our Lord. We have ALL been baptised by one Spirit into the body of Christ. All who come to Christ are accepted as they are, and freely pardoned, salvation being a totally free gift, dependent on Christ's atoning death and His righteousness freely imputed unto us sinners. The Bible says wide is the road to destruction and many there be thereon, basically, that most people will not find the narrow road, which is simple trust in Christ, but will trust in other things, like their own righteousness, which is as filthy rags, the more we wipe, the dirtier we get, or their particular church or works or sacraments or rituals or ceremonies, or philosophies, or false religions. For those who never heard, Romans says they have the creation to show a creator, and a conscience, God's laws written in their hearts. Did they realize they sin? Did they ask God to forgive them? Then God will judge fairly according to the light given them, (creation, and conscience). Did they turn from belief in God, and harden their hearts and live wickedly? God will judge them accordingly. Again I say, read the book of Romans. For those in Christ, nothing can separate us from His love, nothing can pluck us out of the Father's hand, who is greater than all, and certainly greater than you and I. Salvation is free, but to those who believe in Christ, those who reject Him, have no payment for their sin and must pay for it themselves. Reward and inheritance or position in the Kingdom of God depends on our obedience to God after we are saved, but our salvation is a done deal, Christ having freely paid for our sins and imputed His righteousness unto us.
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/inherit.htm Here is an interesting study of, and links to, some of what, and why I believe these things. Browse a bit, pretty good stuff, very scriptural.
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/inherit.htm Here is an interesting study of, and links to, some of what, and why I believe these things. Browse a bit, pretty good stuff, very scriptural.