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Christian: other christians

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Corban, Sep 25, 2004.

  1. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

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    This is quite frankly a good example of making spripture say what you want it to say. I believe what your attempting to quote is Romans 8:35 " Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? ....." and Romans 8:39 "Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God.......".
    If you back up in the same chapter; who is Paul talking to? Rom 8:1 "...them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit..." : verse 4 "..us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." : verse 5 "...but they that are after the Spirit..." : verses 8 and 9 " So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit....." : verse 14 "For as many are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." : verse 16 "children of God" : verse 17 "joint heirs with Christ" : 21 "children of God" : 28 " them that love God, and are called according to his purpose" : 30 "whom he called" : 33 "God's elect" .

    It is pretty clear just from this chapter alone that only those who are in Christ can not be separated from God's love. Only those of us that deny ourselves and walk after the Spirit of God will not be separated from the love of Christ.

    It is a free gift waiting for all.... but you have to accept it.

    His grace abounds,

    Denton
     
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    So how can we tell if someone is "in Christ" or not?
     
  3. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

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    We can't. It's up to us to serve God ourselves according to his Word, not what someone else tells us. You'll stand before God not man.

    When you are "in Christ" you know it. It is a knowledge that breathes from every fiber of your being. Capture every thought and make it submit to the will of God. Let Jesus truly be Lord of your life in all things.

    Okay for a straight answer, it's not up to us to tell if someones not in Christ or not.

    Denton
     
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  4. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Amen, Denton!
     
  5. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I know this question wasn't directed to me, Katzpur...but I would like to answer...

    You're "in Christ" if you have accepted him as your Personal Saviour, giving him the driver's wheel...and then strive to live you life not by your own will but by HIS...this is living in Christ.
     
  6. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

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    You say things so much nicer than I do.
     
  7. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I'm really sorry...that wasn't really my question to answer. :eek:

    Thanks, though.:D
     
  8. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

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    That didn't bother me in the least.:) :)
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    So...God is love...but God will only love us if we do something??? How does that equate to grace being free? I have trouble understanding how you can say "Only those of us that deny ourselves...will not be separated from the love of God," and then turn around and proclaim, "His grace abounds." Obviously, you don't think it abounds too much, because you believe it 's withheld from certain people who are "outside." :confused:
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm glad to see you feel that way. Unfortunately a great many people who consider themselves to be Christians don't share your point of view. It can be extremely hurtful to those of us on the receiving end of their intolerance.
     
  11. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    His grace abounds BECAUSE he loves us despite of our shortcomings. That love is unconditional BUT we have free will to choose our spiritual fate.

    If we do not ACCEPT Jesus Christ as our redeemer...we will not be acknowledged by the Father. This is biblical...I'd be more than happy to illustrate my point with scripture.
     
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  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Please don't. You're going to quote John 14. That whole exchange between Jesus and his disciples is about doing, not believing. Jesus commands us to do. He says, "Love your neighbor as yourself." That's what Jesus models in his ministry, and that's what he expects us to do. In the John 14 conversation, Jesus is saying, "do what I do -- follow my example. That is the 'way'."

    Then you're going to quote a lot of other things out of context where Jesus judges and speaks harshly against "evildoers." It's all proof-texting.

    Jesus was not debating the veracity of other religions here. He was talking about his disciples following him (doing what he modeled).

    The thief on the cross did not "confess Jesus as Lord," yet Jesus assured him a place in heaven. Why? Because the thief showed love to Jesus. The overarching theme of the whole Bible is about how much God loves us and seeks us out.

    If love is unconditional, why is it dependent upon what we do? God is the beginning and the end. All things begin in him, and will wind up in him, as well.
     
  13. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    God's love for us is unconditional. I'm not disputing this.

    Do you believe that we are all heaven bound based solely upon the fact that God loves us unconditionally?
     
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yes! That's what I believe. I believe that Christ died on the cross to forgive all sin. When we speak of sin in a post-resurrection world, we speak only of forgiven sin.

    I think that any who love God, (as they perceive God), and who love their neighbor, are doing what Christ commanded -- are following his commandments and his lifestyle. Belief is not requisite. Embodying love is.

    I believe that God knows all, and would never create people whom he knows will end up in eternal damnation. I believe that God will always give us opportunity to seek him out, and that God will bring all of us to be with God.

    A God of judgment, who divides and condemns, is incongruent with a faith that is maturing and evolving with humanity.
     
  15. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I don't disagree with you at all here. We are to DO and LIVE by Christ. But we must accept his sacrifice for our sin to truly LIVE IN Christ. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son that whosoever BELIEVETH in Him shall not PERISH but have everlasting life."

    So, are you saying that you ignore all parts of the Bible that references God's chastisement?

    The thief on the cross acknowledged his wrong doings. He repented and thus was forgiven. Yes, he showed love but also repented. Yes God loves us. I do not argue this and yes, he seeks us out...but we HAVE TO LET HIM IN to our hearts. It's a choice that we make. We are not granted salvation merely through loving him. We must relinquish our lives to him...repent fully for wrong doings. We do this by accepting Christ...we're washed clean by the blood of Christ.

    We must abandon ourselves to Christ. It's a choice we make. That's the "thing" that we have to do. If you reject Christ...you reject reconciliation with God.
     
  16. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Amen! I'm right with you here.

    To receive forgiveness...we repent. Do you believe this?

    Belief is important. You are not going to live a Godly life or follow Christ's example if you do not believe that he is our Redeemer. With belief comes love. And yes, when we love our neighbors and show love, we are doing what Christ commanded. I don't disagree with you there but you can't follow in Christ's footsteps, if you don't believe in Him.

    You make a choice when you become a Christian. Without Christ...you are not promised eternal life in heaven. According to the Bible...you are either of Christ or you are not. There is no in between. There is no middle ground. And according to the Bible, there is a very real heaven to place your treasures in and very real hell to avoid.

    Do you believe there are no consequences for our actions? Both in a physical and enternal sense?

    This site is excellent. The link below gives excellent biblical references which reiterate what I'm trying to illustrate here about hell, heaven and belief in Christ.

    http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=400

    God is Love and he is Almighty but he is a jealous God and demands the obedience of his Children.

    Punishment for our wrong doings has been in effect since the beginning. I'm currently doing an in depth study of the OT. When God established His covenant with his people...the punishment for sin ranged from atonement through sacrifices and burnt offerings to being cut off from one's people to death. God told Moses when he was on the Mount that if anyone so much as touched the Mount...they would be destroyed...just to give you an example...

    It's God's design that there be consequence for action...both in a physical and eternal sense.

    In Matthew 25...Verses 31-46...Jesus speaks of when the nations will be judged. He speaks of loving and giving to people. That when you do not do so...the offense is against HIM and I think you have a good grasp on the concept that we are supposed to live this way in Christ...but he also...in the very last verse of this chapter, makes it very clear what the punishment is for not living in such a way...

    "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

    In the Book of Revelation, we're told that upon judgement, if we are not found in the Book of life...we are "cast into the lake of fire". (Rev. 20:15)

    So, you're completly ignoring every scripture which references the inevitable judgement that we ALL will face? God isn't here to serve humanity...we are here to serve Him. God does not change. He is the same God Today as He was yesterday and will be the very same God tomorrow and always. Our faith grows stronger In HIM when we place our trust in Him. GOD doesn't divide. We make the choice to separate ourselves from God, when we turn away and fail to place our trust in him.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    And you don't believe that God's will is ultimately stronger than ours? You don't believe that, whatever God wants, God will finally Get? I choose to believe that God's grace is far greater than our will. Softly, tenderly God calls us. God doesn't coerce or frighten us into belief. And God will continue calling for as long as it takes for all of us to answer. Remember, time is on God's side.
     
  18. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    I DO believe that God's will is greater than our own...but we have been given free will and the ability to choose for a reason. Yes, God will continue to call for us...but we have to make the decision to answer Him when he calls...to relinquish our lives and surrender to Christ...pick up our own crosses and follow Christ to the end.

    God has made it pretty clear throughout the Bible, that when we do not follow Him and place our trust in Him... there are negative consequences for our actions. Those who do not accept Christ are NOT promised eternal life.

    If you choose not to believe what the Scriptures say, pertaining to God and HIS (not ours) plan for our salvation...that is indeed your right. But I for one, believe whole heartedly in God's Word.

    Do you believe in God's Word or do you rely on your own views of who God is?

    It's your right to believe any way you like. God Bless.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    One thing in this post really jumps out at me. You keep saying, "Yes...but." Always a proviso. I don't believe Jesus offers grace with provisos attached.

    Your question, "Do you believe in God's Word, or do you rely on your own views of who God is?" is a loaded question. It assumes that, if I formulate a theological stance, based upon careful attention to tradtition, history, literary form, reason, etc., then I don't "believe in God's Word." I do believe God's Word. I also believe that we have to dissect it scholastically in order to arrive at true meaning. I do not read the Bible literalistically. Ultimately, each one of us holds a different perspective of God. No one has seen the Father, therefore, all we have to go on is our own devices, arrived at by our own learning and experience. Why is one's own "view of God" any less significant than anyone else's?

    This is what makes the most sense to me. Maybe it doesn't make sense to you. That's OK!
     
  20. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    You're right...it is okay. We are entitled to our own interpretations...

    As for using "Yes..but"...this is a debate thread, you know?

    We simply interpret Scripture differently. I interpret the Bible literalistically and try to understand what I'm reading on a spiritual level before I process it mentally.

    To each his/her own...I reckon. Blessings to you and yours.:D
     
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