Christian only please: Did Jesus commit suicide?

[Comprehend]

Did Jesus commit suicide?

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

[James the Persian]

No. Not unless you consider self-sacrifice for the sake of others to be suicide, anyway. I do not consider that someone, say a war hero, who gives his life to save others has committed suicide. Do you?

James

 

[Comprehend]

No. Not unless you consider self-sacrifice for the sake of others to be suicide, anyway. I do not consider that someone, say a war hero, who gives his life to save others has committed suicide. Do you?

James

What do you make of the phrase "no man taketh it from me..." specifically? Would you understand that phrase to mean that not only was Jesus giving himself as a sacrifice such as the war hero, but that He was required to personally and actively end His own life, or to allow his body to die by the very nature of His Godhood?

 

[James the Persian]

What do you make of the phrase "no man taketh it from me..." specifically? Would you understand that phrase to mean that not only was Jesus giving himself as a sacrifice such as the war hero, but that He was required to personally and actively end His own life, or to allow his body to die by the very nature of His Godhood?

Closer to the latter view. Christ volunteered to allow Himself to die for without His death and resurrection He, and through Him human nature, could not triumph over death. As we sing at Pascha 'Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death and on those in the tombs bestowing life'. Incarnational soteriology, not sacrifice a la Penal substitutionary Atonement.

James

 

[Comprehend]

Closer to the latter view. Christ volunteered to allow Himself to die for without His death and resurrection He, and through Him human nature, could not triumph over death. As we sing at Pascha 'Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death and on those in the tombs bestowing life'. Incarnational soteriology, not sacrifice a la Penal substitutionary Atonement.

James

OK, great answer, I am now going to have to read up about "incarnational soteriology, is this a good source or would you recommend a different one?).

In order to clarify, I ask this hypothetical question: If Jesus did not act during His crucifixion, but only allowed Himself to be acted upon, would the Romans have been able to take His life?

In other words, Jesus can walk on water and bring people back from the dead, He is a God, even if they had beheaded Him like John, would that have killed Jesus?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

OK, great answer, I am now going to have to read up about "incarnational soteriology, is this a good source or would you recommend a different one?).

In order to clarify, I ask this hypothetical question: If Jesus did not act during His crucifixion, but only allowed Himself to be acted upon, would the Romans have been able to take His life?

In other words, Jesus can walk on water and bring people back from the dead, He is a God, even if they had beheaded Him like John, would that have killed Jesus?

A headless Jesus would be Dead....
The question is rather, would he have allowed the situation to progress as far as some one actually to cut off his head.

If he allowed him self to be crusified of course it would have the effect of killing him.
In allowing his crusifixion he was allowing his own death.

 

[James the Persian]

OK, great answer, I am now going to have to read up about "incarnational soteriology, is this a good source or would you recommend a different one?).

From my initial skim read, it looks like a very good source. I'll read it through in more detail and let you know if I find anything to be wary of, but I seriously doubt that I will.

In order to clarify, I ask this hypothetical question: If Jesus did not act during His crucifixion, but only allowed Himself to be acted upon, would the Romans have been able to take His life?

In other words, Jesus can walk on water and bring people back from the dead, He is a God, even if they had beheaded Him like John, would that have killed Jesus?

My answer is yes. He did have to act in order to allow someone to kill Him but that action was not at the time of the Crucifixion but when He emptied Himself to become Incarnate as man. He was fully man, with our fallen and hence mortal nature (and that is vital - if He did not put on fallen human nature then we are not saved) so, of course He needed do nothing more to allow Himself to die (though undoubtedly He could have acted to prevent it, for He is also fully God). In other words, I see why you ask what you do, and I agree with the principle that He had to actively assent to His mortality - I just think that you are looking at entirely the wrong time frame.

James

 

[Comprehend]

From my initial skim read, it looks like a very good source. I'll read it through in more detail and let you know if I find anything to be wary of, but I seriously doubt that I will.



My answer is yes. He did have to act in order to allow someone to kill Him but that action was not at the time of the Crucifixion but when He emptied Himself to become Incarnate as man. He was fully man, with our fallen and hence mortal nature (and that is vital - if He did not put on fallen human nature then we are not saved) so, of course He needed do nothing more to allow Himself to die (though undoubtedly He could have acted to prevent it, for He is also fully God). In other words, I see why you ask what you do, and I agree with the principle that He had to actively assent to His mortality - I just think that you are looking at entirely the wrong time frame.

James

thanks James, you have given me much to think about. It is very interesting.

 

[James the Persian]

thanks James, you have given me much to think about. It is very interesting.

Glad to help. By the way, that source you found is wonderful - so good that I'm going to post a link to it in our forum. I wish I'd known about it sooner. Coming from a Lutheran background I see only too clearly the differences that the author has described far more eloquently than I can. I recommend it wholeheartedly and it's this difference that made me convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy over all the western alternatives.

James

 

[Comprehend]

Glad to help. By the way, that source you found is wonderful - so good that I'm going to post a link to it in our forum. I wish I'd known about it sooner. Coming from a Lutheran background I see only too clearly the differences that the author has described far more eloquently than I can. I recommend it wholeheartedly and it's this difference that made me convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy over all the western alternatives.

James

Great! I am happy to be of service. Aristotle has convinced me there is no such thing as luck so it must have been chance that I came across it...

EDIT: I'll delete my post in the sticky thread so as to not muddy it up and leave this one as my response to you.

 

[Comprehend]

bump.

 

[astarath]

No, he did not control those around him. Men have free will, they chose to crucify him and God allowed it period.

 

[athanasius]

Did Jesus commit suicide?

I sure hope the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints does not believe or teach that Jesus committed suicide. If so then Mormonism is even farther away from the biblical and historical true Christian teaching and Christianity than I thought. Please say that this is only your opinion?

 

[James the Persian]

I sure hope the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints does not believe or teach that Jesus committed suicide. If so then Mormonism is even farther away from the biblical and historical true Christian teaching and Christianity than I thought. Please say that this is only your opinion?

I don't think that it's even Comprehend's opinion that Christ committed suicide. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that he's asking us if we share a view that someone else he knows holds to. I've certainly heard the accusation that Christ committed suicide before and some historical sects came very close to the idea also.

James

 

[sandy whitelinger]

In order to clarify, I ask this hypothetical question: If Jesus did not act during His crucifixion, but only allowed Himself to be acted upon, would the Romans have been able to take His life?

Jesus was crucified by the Romans because the Sanhedrin convicted Him of blasphemy which was punishable by death. The Romans would not allow Israel to excercise the death penalty (the scepter shan not pass from Israel until Shiloh comes)and it fell upon the romans to carry out the sentance.

The Sanhedrin would not have convicted Jesus by the evidence that was presented and documented in Scripture. They could not even get enough witnesses to agree in their lies against Him to convict. It was only by Christ's own testimony could they convict Christ.

Another argument against Christ's death being suicide is that if it were not for the sin of man then there would not be death, hence Christ would not have died.

 

[lizskid]

No, he did not commit suicide. He allowed what was going to happen, happen. His quote that you gave just says the humans will not have true control of his life, that he is allowing it. You forget, the death and resurrection were prophesied, so it had to happen to close the deal, so to speak, on the convenant with God. The death and resurrection were the ultimate victory over evil (not related to the faith of those who put Him to death, but the reasons they did it.)

 

[sandy whitelinger]

No, he did not commit suicide. He allowed what was going to happen, happen. His quote that you gave just says the humans will not have true control of his life, that he is allowing it. You forget, the death and resurrection were prophesied, so it had to happen to close the deal, so to speak, on the convenant with God. The death and resurrection were the ultimate victory over evil (not related to the faith of those who put Him to death, but the reasons they did it.)

It could be argued that it was sucide by centurian (or maybe suicide by Sanhedrin) in that if He would have not said anything at His trial before the Sanhedrin they would have had no grounds for a conviction.

 

[emmaleebee]

I sure hope the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints does not believe or teach that Jesus committed suicide. If so then Mormonism is even farther away from the biblical and historical true Christian teaching and Christianity than I thought. Please say that this is only your opinion?

No, we do not believe or teach that...I agree with what JamesThePersian said:

I don't think that it's even Comprehend's opinion that Christ committed suicide. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that he's asking us if we share a view that someone else he knows holds to.

 

[Comprehend]

I sure hope the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints does not believe or teach that Jesus committed suicide. If so then Mormonism is even farther away from the biblical and historical true Christian teaching and Christianity than I thought. Please say that this is only your opinion?

The LDS church teaches nothing like this and it is certainly not my opinion either. I was just asking the question. I like to talk about a great deal of things I do not believe myself.

Thank you James and emileebee, I missed this post before.

 

[Runlikethewind]

I think suicide involves intent to give up ones life for selfish reasons. I think that when one gives up their life for selfless intentions, like Jesus or a war hero, then it is not considered suicide.

I also heard it said (by a Catholic priest no less) that Jesus was unaware of his divinity. In other words Jesus did not acctually know that he was God. I'm not sure if this changes anything, or even if it is true, but I think that it is something to consider when pondering this issue.... Does Jesus' knowledge or lack of knowledge change his action on calvary? hmmmmm.......