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Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by chris9178, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. precept

    precept Member

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    {QUOTE=RMARCHY]Eternal security is the best motivation God could ever conceive from the drawing board of heaven to get the believer to serve Him.[/QUOTE]

    Your above statement is grossly unscriptural. It again makes the assumption that God has a vested interest in promising us salvation in exchange for our serving Him. The scripture teaches otherwise. The reason for Christ coming to this earth was to "reconcile the world back from the clutches of Satan back to Him". This Christ faithfully did....and then returned to heaven....But God wanted to continue "reconciling the world back to Him"...and seeing His Son had started this work of reconciliation; He decided to make those who accepted His offer of reconcilation, co-reconcilators with His Son....2 Corinthians 5:19-20

    No where is there any "offer in bribe" of any being saved forever or "eternally". Our responsibility to our Saviour is to rejoice in our salvation and to share our jubilation with any who would rejoice wth us. But again when we sin, we have an advocate, who will plead our case...but only if we are sorry for sinning against Him. We will be eternally saved only, and as long as whenever we sin, we show contriton, a desire not to sin, a deep repentance as was shown by God's friend, king David. If God so desires repentance from one He calls His friend, how much more us sinners saved only by His grace.


    precept
     
  2. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    rmarchy are you aware that Paul wrote "....For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same thing" (Romans 2:1, ESV) How can you be critical of the "proof texting" method when you have used it throughout this entire discussion? Also your use of 2 Peter 1:20 isn't even close to the meaning. Peter was talking about the "inspiration of the Sctriptures" not rules of interpretation. The very next verse clarifies what is being discussed.
    Prosecutor
     
  3. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Some believe that they are to do the best they can and that Christ’s death will make up for what they lack. Others believe that Christ’s death provided some of their salvation and that they must contribute the rest. Either way, to be partly saved would be to be completely lost. Even if Christ’s death provided 99% of a person’s salvation he would still not be saved. 99% saved is 100% lost. If Christ effected 99% of my salvation I would be lost until I contributed the remaining one percent, and then I would have become my own savior. But God will not share His glory with another, and saving people who don’t deserve to be saved is what glorifies Him in Time and Eternity.
    Would an all-wise God, who knows the future in advance, go to the trouble of saving someone on Monday whom He knew would only be lost again three years from Thursday? No!

    The great objection to pure Grace (could Grace be other than pure?) is, of course, that if God makes the believer perfectly safe in the present time he will abuse his security by living selfishly and not living for Christ. WOULD YOU DO THIS? Is the motive for the Christian life saving one's skin? If my chief aim in life is saving my own skin, am I serving God or self? If the death of the God-man on the cross of Calvary for me is not sufficient motive for life and service, will a less noble, even an ignoble motivation prove sufficient? God and Paul teach otherwise! In 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 we see that the love from Christ displayed at the cross is the one supremely powerful source of motivation for our living unto Him rather than unto ourselves. "For the love from (lit.) Christ constrains us; because we thus judge (conclude), that if one died for all, then all died (lit.): and that He died for all, that they which live should no longer live to themselves, but to Him who died for them, and rose again."

    Precept, I respect your opinons but I don't understand your view of salvation. According to you, how is a person saved? Then how does that same person lose their salvation? And how does one get it back, or better how does one keep getting it back? People sin constantly, every second. The greatest commandment was to love the Lord with every fiber of your being. Let's be honest here, has anyone EVER done that for even a New York minute? We commit sins of omission in addtion to sins of commision. We commit sins we're not even aware of. So how could we possibly be sorry for them if we're not even aware of them. Your view of salvation seems like, well ok so i'm saved this morning and before going to sleep tonight i have to think of every possible sin i commited for that day and repent of them to keep my salvation. What if i miss one, and die in my sleep? Your view would have me going to hell for eternity. How does that glorify God? You have God out to be our probation officer, and not our savior.

    Are you saying that i can never know whether i'm saved or not till i get to heaven?

    1Jo 5:13
    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    I believe Christ paid for all my sins at the cross and that i'm saved for eternity. You seem to believe that Christ paid only for past sins and somehow today's and future sins must be daily repented of, or i will lose my salvation.

    Suffice it to say, we'll have to agree to disagree. The Lord will settle this argument in heaven.
     
  4. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    using this portion of scripture in no way tells us anything about satan being able to be "saved" Jesus DESTROYED Satan- there was no possibility to SAVE him- Jesus came to destroy sin and satan- not to save him- you said it yourself. Jesus died for man's sins. Notice how it doesn't say he came to destroy humanity- but to destroy satan.
     
  5. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    rmarchy, their argument would be that only certain, particular sins make you lose your salvation- not tiny ones like stealing a paperclip. Interesting huh? I believe the concept - break 1 part of the law, guilty of breaking the WHOLE law..
     
  6. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    maybe I'm naiive- what's the point of debating things here when no one desires to change his views? I'm sure that everyone strongly believes what he believes.... it seems that we just go in circles.
     
  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Someone may not change overnight..... I converted after research and the help of some online forums.... just FYI...... but it's also helpful for me to read these debates and get to know and understand what other Christians believe.... whatever the truth is, these "debates" help the individual clarify their beliefs and learn to present them... something that is very useful, indeed.
     
  8. precept

    precept Member

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    This "supposed belief" as supposed to have been reffered to by Paul, is a figment of the imagination of those who are not in tune with scripture. Paul could not have been addressing Christian Gentiles re this "supposed belief" of certain Christians, re law keeping and salvation, if only because Christian Gentiles had no concept of "law keeping"....these people were formerly Pagans, and as Pagans would have been only exposed to idol worship.

    The people to which "law keeping" as a means to salvation would be addressed would be those who thought that to be saved they had to keep Judaism's laws; and this group would include all the disciples and all the Jews who had been converted to Christianity. To grasp this fact you need to read the ongoing discussion between Paul and the rest of the disciples including all of Jesus' twelve disciples. Read the ongoing discussion in Acts chapters 15 and 21.

    It is important to note that this was just a discussion, as evidenced by Paul himself acquiesing and keeping the ceremonial law as demanded by the rest of Jesus' disciples when he attended at the Jeresalem council of Acts chapter 21. Paul also showed the un-importance to salvation, of a Christian Jew's keeping the ceremonial laws or his not keeping the ceremonial laws in these words in 1 Corinthians 9:20-21... "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews..." This is a clear reference to Paul's identifying with Jewish customs and ceremonies as was his heritage--but still while referring to his Jewish heritage; he also identified with the Truth of salvation- an act independent of any Law or custom.....and the fact of his practicing his Jewish laws and customs did not in any way interfere or affect his Christian way of life. Jesus made this also apparent when He told the disciples that as often as they met to celebrate the Jewish ceremonial law of passover that they will be reminded of His death and burial till He retuirned....

    Paul also said that to them that are "under the law...he also became like them; or become as if also he was "under the law"..again using this opportunity to expose those "under the law" to salvation as found in Jesus only. In this regard Paul also kept the Jewish laws, including the 613; some of which he himself might have decreed. Jesus also, Himself a Jew, kept some of these laws[as in as His custom was He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day]; but He also did not keep others. In the main these laws had no influence on one's salvation one way or the other, ie. whether one obeyed them or not was irrelevant to one's salvation as long as disobeying these laws was not sinning against God; but if disobeying these laws becomes sinning against God; their only relevance to salvation, would be if the sinner is repentant or not.

    Paul also became as one "without law"; again for the same reason; "that I might gain them that are without law"...in this regard he became one with the Gentiles; a choice that Peter and the rest of the disciples, together with all the Christian Jews of Judea, disagreed. His becoming "one with those without law" meant that the Gentiles were free to not keep any of Judaism's laws WHICH MEANT ALSO THAT THOUGH PAUL HIMSELF KEPT THESE LAWS; HIS KEEPING OF THESE LAWS WERE UN-IMPORTANT TO THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION-His keeping them just had reference only to him and to his Jewish culture.

    This ideology is not foreign to us of our times....Depending on the culture of one's origins, Christians of different cultures today display different forms of worship to God, without affecting the truth and sincerity of their worship to their Creator.

    The long answer as given above had to be given to make this most important point that Paul's discussion re "salvation" and "law keeping" or "Works" re salvation, must be seen in their related contexts.

    When the Gentile Christians were told by Christian Jews that they the Gentile Christians must also keep Judaism's laws...Paul then had to make the point for the benefit of the Christian Gentiles and the Christian Jew, that this excercise was unnecessary to one's salvation.He tried to make both Christian Jew and Christian Gentile alike realize that both Christian Jew and Christian Gentile can only be saved by accepting Jesus as his Saviour- an act totally independent of the keeping of any law or the doing of any work.

    It is this discussion that uninformed Christians today "marry" to salvation gained through the merits of works. The Christian Jews of Paul's day, Jews that included Peter and all of Jesus' disciples had no problem believing that Jesus as Messiah and Saviour saved them from sin independent of their Jewish laws and customs.

    The problem of interpretation only arose when the former "dogs" as Gentiles were known; became [like Jews] having now accepted a Jewish form of worship; the Christian Jew also sincerely believed that accepting their Jewish Messiah included adopting the Jewish laws and ceremonies as held in sacred reverence by all Jews, Christian Jews and Orthodox Jews alike...This was the thinking of all the Christian Jews in Judea, including all of Jesus' twelve disciples; and some went to extreme ends to force the Gentile Christians into complying--Paul disagreed with the position of all of the Christian Jews in Jerusalem; and his ongoing discussion with them is what the un-informed of Christianity today has fired up as "one can only be saved" by Grace alone and by faith alone. While this is true; it was only meant to speak to those of Judaism who also thought that the Gentile Christians should keep Judaism's laws....Laws that they themselves as Jewish Christians, kept to their dying days.

    The best way to understand this theology is to put yourself in the shoes of two of Jesus' disciples walking on the road to Emmaus---they by their not understanding "the law and the prophets" would have also been "good Jews"; keeping all of Judaism's laws and ceremonies....and that; after Jesus had taught them for more than three years; and still now having died and was resurrected, was still explaining to them what they still did not understand re His coming to save humanity from their siins.


    continued
     
  9. precept

    precept Member

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    Given this fact therefore, means that referring to Christians today who keep God's commandments as "working to go to heaven" has no relevance. The disciples kept these laws because they were Jews by heritage; and these laws had as much effect then, re salvation as they have today- in other words they have No effect!on the gift of salvation Jesus Himself made the point that those who love Him "kept His commandments", And while this is a must for all who say they love the Lord; yet by keeping all of Jesus' commandments without acknowledging that one's salvation is TOTALLY DEPENDENT ON THE DEATH OF THE SON OF GOD; AND TOTALLY INDEPENDENT OF ANY LAW... thus if one fails to accept this fact in its entirety such an one's effort, is an excercise that is futile at best to ascertain one's salvation.


    You make my point about mis-understanding the discussion between Paul and those of Jewish Christendom who disagreed with him.
    But in answer to your question re "whether when one accepts Christ and then sins against Christ;who then asks, and or forget to ask for forgiveness...and or sins without knowing that he/she has sinned; and hence doesn't ask for forgiveness, whether such a sinner is saved, lost; or lost until he somehow asks for forgivenss..and whether "once such a sinner accepts Christ; why wouldn't he/she be saved "eternally"?

    Your question is answered in scripture...In 1 John 3:9.."Whosoever is born of God, doth not commit sin".{/B] While this to those without vision, appears a contradiction["all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"]yet to those who are of the kingdom of God, it isn't. No child of God will desire to sin against his Creator God when God takes him to heaven; neither would any such child of God desire TO SIN AGAINST HIS CREATOR WHILE ON EARTH It is in this sense that a child of God would with all his heart not want to sin against his Creator God; but because of his sinful nature, he yet sins. His Creator knowing that His child would rather not sin against Him, treats Him as if he never sinned. Such a child of God is forgiven even if he sins without being concious of sinning against His Creator God...And this is so; becaise such a child of God would instantly asks His Father's forgiveness had he known that he had sinned against his Creator God. His wanting forgiveness is unrelated to his desire to be saved or lost. His wanting forgiveness is totally related to pleasing his Father in every regard; being in everlasting gratitude to his Father for saving him from the certain death that sinned had condemned him to, eternally as sin would have effected in separating him from his Loving Creator. This is the behaviour of every true child of God...He hates sinning against His Father, because He is aware of the excruciating pain that sin has caused his Loving father....Such a child of God remains His child "eternally" and as long as he continues loving His Father in this fashion...
    However, if and when he stops loving his Father in this fashion and sins against his Father, having no remorse even when he is aware of his sins; then neither will he have any remorse even if unaware of sins against his Father God, if he became aware of said sins in time....Such a former child of God would be behaving like the wicked who sin against their Father God without remorse...and would have returned to his "vomit of sin", "wallowing as a sow mired in sin"....such a former child of God would be deserving and would in fact have the same reward as those who sin without remorse.


    "The answer my friend"; is in the scriptures and known to those who are "the "elect; saved according to the promise"



    I hope I have answered your "just queries". I'll be glad to address any specific point or specific question yet unanswered.

    Again; I hope that I have already answered this question; but suffice it to say that Any Christian who "worships God in Spirit and in Truth"; any Christian "who is born of God; and who consequently hates sinning even when he sins, knowingly and unknowingly against his Father...Any and all such Christians are "Eternally saved"...All such Christians are "One with the Father" as He is "One with His Son" in a combined hatred for sin that makes all participants agree on the heinous nature of sin and together live a shared life dedicated to loving our Lord with all our heart, as He loves us; and with so much shared love that we hurt as much as he hurts when we sin.

    And so you are; but only if you "love the Lord with all your heart". And all who "love the Lord with all their heart" will make especially sure that they are worshipping Him "in Spirit and in Truth"...And all who love the Lord with all their heart" will also "love their neighbor as they love themselves"...a fact which will make them not want to sin against their neighbor; if only because no one would want to do himself harm; as in no one would want to sin against himself....Hence a Christian who is born of God doth not commit any sin against neighbor or against God. You so are "eternally saved" if like God, you continue to hate sin as He continues to so do.

    Your unfortunate conclusion must be seen for what it is worth...a gross misunderstanding of Paul's dialogue with Christian Jews.


    precept
     
  10. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    that IS helpful thanks
     
  11. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    last i knew the flesh enjoyed sinning and constantly opposes the spirit. It does not like anything holy.
     
  12. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Is this God's mission statement?
     
  13. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    No one can do this. If we truly loved God with all our heart we would quit everything and fall down on our knees in prayer and supplication 24/7 and not be afraid to tell people about Jesus and read our Bible's constantly without grumbling.
     
  14. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    If this is true, then Jesus could be the only Christian.
     
  15. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Sorry, I know this was very lengthy, but these debates are great and I hope everyone takes into consideration what everyone here says. But don’t trust any of us ever, but go directly to the scriptures to see whether or not these things are so. And yes i hope these debates are helping people and i hope i have helped, even a little, people who are unsure of their salvation.

    And please i hope everyone would at least just read through this book with an open mind and a Bible in hand. "Things That Differ" by C. R. Stam. You can read the whole book here for free...

    http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm

    I promise this book will help dispell 99% of the seeming contradictions and confusion.
    I hope you enjoy it.

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  16. precept

    precept Member

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    Read again the scriptures; and learn its sacred language. Any reference to "flesh" in scripture is re the sinner's nature; it is an ongoing reference to our inherent sinful nature. This is the nature that Paul describes as "Wnenever I think to do good, evil presents itself". Our sinful nature or the flesh wants "first place" in all our actions. Though this is so; if we "keep under our body and bring it into subjection"; another Pauline quote, we will manifest the work of the Spirit in subjugating "the flesh". This act of allowing another party, the Holy Spirit to aid us in subjugating the flesh is known as "being born of the Spirit".

    The Christian then who is born of the Spirit; born of God, exhibits the "fruit of the Spirit"..."love, Joy, longsuffering, goodness, meekness"; all traits of the Spirit of Very God-and traits as exhibited by every true child of God. When therefore a true child of God is tempted to violate his "born of the Spirit" status, he reaches down and retrieves the relevant fruit...which may at that time be the fruit of "lonsuffering". All of the fruit of God's Holy Spirit is always available to His Children; and neither would He make these fruits available to His children, if He thought this excercise was useless.

    The war against the desires of the flesh-"sin" is ongoing and constant; but those who are "born of God" are just as unrelenting in feasting on the Holy "fruit of God's Holy Spirit".....as we feast on... we are exhorted to so continue to so feast; And the Holy Spirit becomes our constant companion, providing an inexhaustible supply of fruit.

    And it is! The scriptures teach that none can say that he loves God; but at the same time 'hate his brother'.1 John 4:20-21... One demonstrates hate towards his brotther when he sins against his brother..."to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not; to him it is sin."...and no one who hates another could do good for the one he hates...Our mission statement is to "love one another as I have lovef you". Those who think that the "mission statement" is to "tell others about Jesus" are sadly mistaken.... Jesus made clear who His disciples are...."...everyone will know that you are my disciples " if you have LOVE ONE FOR ANOTHER"..John 13:35..and when you exhibit love for one another ...it becomes "impossible to sin against the one you love". As a result of your not desiring to sin against the one you love; you behave like God in hating the sin that would make you break your loving communion with your brother...whic becomes a concious display on your part to not sin against your brother.

    Again; a misguided application of scripture....Peter loved his Master; yet he denied Him three times. Jesus asked Peter three times if he Peter loved Him Jesus....Peter's response/ "Yea Lord; You know that I love you". Loving the Lord does not carry the meaning you postulate. Loving the Lord is similar to the true love between a woman and her spouse. And in similar fashion though each may in turn disagree to the point of hurting the other; yet their undying love for each other will continue to death "do us part". A man's love for his spouse and or the woman's love for her spouse is not a mindless devotion for each other as you would describe in your 24/7 description...And also neither is this so when one is in love with His Lord. As with human love; one in love with his Lord will also sin against his Lord; but he always would have rather not to sin against his Lord, his constantly being aware of the extreme cost that sin exacted form his Lord and his God. This awareness of the terrible nature of sin is sufficient for his Lord, who treats the redeemed sinner as if he never sinned.

    Read the scriptures: "Sin will not have dominion over me".....When a child of God exhibits the fruit of the Spirit, it becomes impossible for him to sin against his brother....A good analogy is again found in a true love relationship between a man/woman and his/her spouse. No man/woman truly in love with his/her spouse woukl knowingly sin against said spouse. This is the same love as would be exhibited by a true child of God towards all members of the human population; loving each and every human as He loves his spouse...as he loves himself--as he loves his own body.


    precept
     
  17. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Ever since Christ died, sin has not been the issue.

    Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    The sin question for saved and lost people has been settled, and was 2000 years ago when the Lamb of God went to the cross of Calvary and took away the sins, not simply of the Jewish church, not simply of the grace church, but of the world. Think of it, now that’s seldom taught in pulpits, but the word of God declares it. The Son of God didn’t take away the sin of believers but also of unbelievers. So the issue now in salvation, and the issue ever since then, has not been sin, but faith.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


    Christ died for every man, not just believers. Faith and unbelief are the issue. Do you believe, or don’t you believe?

    1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


    So God’s Holiness was satisfied, (that’s what propitiation means, in pagan religions it means the placation of the wrath of the gods, but it doesn’t mean that in Scripture) but in our salvation, as it is laid out in the Bible, is the complete satisfaction of the Holiness of God regarding the sin of man. Christ is the propitiation for our sins (John was speaking as a Jew, but as a believer) but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. I believe that, and most churches don’t believe that and most preachers don’t preach that and most people in the pews are unaware that it’s even in the Bible.

    So your neighbor, your unsaved neighbor is not lost because he/she is sinning, sin is not the issue. He/she is lost because they are not accepting the offer/free gift of salvation.

    For instance, if our government ever decided to print more money, and they decided to do a means test and to give everyone who didn’t have a million dollars, a million dollars. Suppose now that I didn’t go to the bank to get my million dollars. Why I could live and die without ever spending a single penny. I could live and die without ever having once ounce of benefit from that million dollars that the government is giving to me. I would have to collect my million dollars in order to have my million dollars. Christ on Calvary died not only for the church, but for the whole world. He died not only for the sins of the saved but for the sins of the lost. Don’t forget, if He didn’t die for the sins of lost people, you could not have been saved because you were lost when you were saved. Sin was not the issue, the issue was would you trust Christ and be saved, or would you reject Christ and be lost. Would you come to the bank and get your million dollars or will you stay away from the bank and perish and hunger.


    2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

    He died for all (all is inclusive of every human being that has ever sucked air on planet Earth or ever will,) God and Paul say in 2nd Corinthians. Then He distinguishes those who have accepted their “million dollars” from those who haven’t. The believers are those who have gone to the bank to collect and have stopped rejecting it.

    Because of what Christ accomplished on that cross, the present condemnation of sinners is no longer due to the fact of their sins but to the fact that they will not receive the remedy God has provided in His infinite love. Dear friend… from the Amplified Bible



    Joh 3:18 He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation--he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ's name.]

    Joh 3:19 The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.


    You see the condemnation is not man’s sin, because man’s sins were taken care of by Christ upon His cross. Now that may seem to be a strange and heretical doctrine to many sincere believers, but here it says plainly; he who believes, trusts in Him is not condemned. You see the issue is not sin. It doesn’t say how much sin this person has or how much they continued after their salvation. It doesn’t say he who believes and does this, that, or some other thing, or stops doing this, that, or some other thing. It just says he that believes on Him is not condemned. He that believes not is condemned already.


    Why is he condemned, because he has sins, or a sin nature? No our original condemnation was the sin nature with one sin attached. Ok so your unsaved next door neighbor is not lost because he is sinning. Nor even is his condemnation that he fell in Adam. That was our original condemnation. But since Christ came and died and took care of the problem of sin and satisfied the Holiness of God, then man’s sin is no longer the issue with God, His Holiness has been satisfied. What the issue is, is WILL MEN ACCEPT HIS INFINITLY GENEROUS OFFER OF SALVATION PAID FOR BY THE SON OF GOD UPON THE CROSS OF CALVARY.

    2Co 5:19 It was God [personally present] in Christ, reconciling and restoring the world to favor with Himself, not counting up and holding against [men] their trespasses [but cancelling them], and committing to us the message of reconciliation (of the restoration to favor).

    Even more literal would be...

    "But the aforementioned all things are from God as a source, the One who reconciled us to himself through the intermediate agency of Christ and gave to us the ministry whose work is that of proclaimig the message of this reconciliation, namely, that absolute deity in Christ was reconciling the world [of sinners] to himself, not putting down on the liability side of their ledger their trespasses, and lodged in us the sotry of the reconcilation." 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (Kenneth S. Wuest Expanded Translation)

    God isn't even writing down the unsaved people's sins. Do
    you believe that? That’s what God believes about the death of His Son upon the cross of Calvary. Remember grace is all God is free to do for the sinner because the death of His Son upon the cross. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, NOT CREDITING THEIR OFFENCES TO THEM. Don’t you see this? God is not crediting sin even to the unsaved today! But the unsaved may remain in their sins, die, and go to hell because they refused the offer of salvation full and free. (John 16:7-9)


    Religion is all about keeping a dead Christ on the cross. He’s not on the cross. He was taken down from the cross, was buried in a tomb, and rose victor over the reign of death. Romans talks about the reign of death and Christ broke the reign of death. And the evidence of Him having broken the reign of death is right in the believer in the fact that the holy spirit indwells you and you have a new spirit (small “s”). That which is born of the Spirit (capital “S”) is spirit (small “s”) John 3:6.

    Peter says you have become partaker of the divine nature. So in your new birth you received a new and different nature. This is far different then being put on probation dear friend. This isn’t Christ dying to be your probation officer. This is Christ dying to remove the problem of sin which stood between an INFINITE HOLY GOD and man in total ruin, and now the issue even for the unsaved, not only for you to stay saved, but for the unsaved to get saved, the issue is the same; FAITH. And when you exercise faith, you were saved in salvation as eternity in view. Everywhere that God connects salvation with his purpose, we see that salvation is not only for time, or a part of it, but for eternity, all of it.


    Rom 8:1 THEREFORE, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.
     
  18. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Why? Well “THEREFORE” causes us to go back to what God and Paul have been saying. And God and Paul have said that we have died to sin. Did you die to sin??? That has nothing to do with sinless perfection, because the Roman believers that had died all to sin according to Romans chapter 6, were then told in that same chapter not to let sin reign as king in their mortal bodies. So it had nothing to do with sinless perfection. It has everything to do with the fact that God has removed past, present, and future condemnation and that’s why there is no condemnation in Christ. And that’s why in John 5:24;

    Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Has eternal, not temporal life and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION because already passed from death unto life. When you trusted Christ, when you came “hat in hand” to the cross of Calvary, where God does all the saving, and we do the only thing we can do without doing anything at all, that is to simply trust in what another has done for you; then you passed from death to life. It’s not something you’re going to do when you die physically or when you immerge from some imaginary lake of fire called purgatory; it’s something that already happened to the believer, and we have this on the authority of God.
     
  19. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Precept are you saying that since you are now saved, that you can not sin anymore? The new beliver in Christ is incapable of sinning? If that's true then aren't you eternally secure then anyway by default, because if now you are unable to sin against God, then there's no way for you to lose your salvation. So what are we then arguing about?
     
  20. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    precept, you made reference to "man's sinful nature." Where did man get this sinful nature from?
    Prosecutor
     
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