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Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by chris9178, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Then some people ask, well wait then if you are saved already, what sense is there for the great white throne judgment? Well if you ever studied the great white throne judgment, you will notice that no one there is ever acquitted. Everyone there is sentenced. Everyone that is before the bar is condemned and cast into the lake of fire. Those of us who are saved, our judgment has already taken place.



    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed [already] from death unto life.



    Hath means has, HAS eternal life, present possession. Has it right now, not later. Our judgment took place upon the cross on Calvary. The fact that we are eternally secure depends not upon our faithfulness, or faith, or abstinence from sinning, or performing moral works.



    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



    God does all the saving, we do all the being saved. We do the only thing we can do without doing anything and that is to trust in what another has done for us.

    Can a saved person ever be lost? If we recognize what salvation is, that it includes many things, then we recognize that a saved person can never be lost. If those 36 values of the cross became mine the moment I did nothing except trust in what another has done, then how could I lose my salvation. No one can undo the work of God the Son upon His cross! ! ! If you can lose what you have by being bad, you must of gotten it by being good, but Romans says God justifies the ungodly.



    Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    We were without strength and we were ungodly. Then Romans says God commended his love



    Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

    [in the Greek, it's God is presently demonstrating his love] in while we were yet still sinners, Christ died for us. It was his cross, but our death. He had no death of his own to die for. He had no sins of his own, no sinful nature. So he died our death, for our sins, for our sinful nature. The problem in Christendom is that Christians and non Christians have viewed salvation as simply the forgiveness of sins, and sadly there, just the forgiveness of past sins.



    If we look at just the doctrine of forgiveness in scripture, just the doctrine of forgiveness, we find that the believer has not only been forgiven for past sins, but for present and future sins. In Colossians we read, haven forgiven all offences,



    Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    All offences must include past present and future, and remember when Christ died for your sins and mine, all of them were still future. Forgiveness is also only 1 of the 36 values of the cross. So it's wrong to conceive of salvation simply as forgiveness. We must recognize salvation is 35 other things as well. And then again its doubly wrong to conceive that salvation is simply just forgiveness of past sins because its forgiveness of future sins as well.



    So while we are individuals, we still all came from Adam. Christ went to the cross not only to die for that original sin that was credited to our accounts as lost sinners in Adam, but he also died while there upon the cross for every sin you and I have ever committed. He died for every last sin, even those we don't like to remember, or don't remember or don't think of as sins.



    Just like Lord of the Flies, given enough time we can sin. The bible teaches that we cannot make a Christian out of our old nature, our flesh. It's not only spoken of in the Bible as corrupt, but in Ephesians it says it is also corrupting. How can something that is totally corrupt get worse? Well does garbage get worse as it stays out. The old sin nature gets craftier and bolder. So after I have been a Christian for say 40 or 50 years, my old sin nature is not only not any better, but it's much worse. Christ died onto our old sin nature.



    Did you ever stop to think how terrible it would be if Christ left one of my sins or one of your sins unpaid for. How much sin did it take for Adam to lose his ball game? For God said to him, Adam for the day you eat of the fruit thou shalt surely die. So on that day he ate of the fruit he died spiritually. One of the consequences of that spiritual death is that he would die physically as well. These are the things we have to consider when considering eternal security.


    One thing to look at and distinguish is the concept of salvation and probation. They could both never be the same thing. Probation is being given a chance, being given an opportunity to prove oneself, an opportunity to succeed. But the Bible already wrote us off as bad investments as total losses, as absolutely ruined human beings. What good would a second chance do to a dead man. Adam was in a state of perfection having never sinned and without a sinful nature. He was given free will, he wasn't a robot that had to do something. He was given the opportunity to lock himself into holiness by obeying God or to reject holiness by rebelling against God. Adam in a state of perfection made a wrong choice, sinned one sin and not only lost his ball game, but the ball game for you and me. He lost the ball game for the whole human race, as Romans teaches he did:




    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    And so death passed upon all for that all sinned because all sinned in Adam because he was the whole human race at the time. When he fell you and I fell, when he sinned, you and I sinned, when he rebelled, you and I rebelled, when he became lost you and I became lost, when he died spiritually, you and I died spiritually. That's the teaching of Romans. Adam became a sinner by sinning, but you and I sin because we are born sinners. Some may think that's unfair but let's first recognize that God didn't accomplish that, Adam did. Adam was made in the image of God but now Adam could only produce children unto his own image.


    Before man's creation, God said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness," but after the fall we read that Adam "begat a son in his own likeness, after his image" (Gen. 1:26, cf. 5:3).
     
  2. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    "If we can’t lose our salvation, why does the Bible warn us about falling from grace?"



    Once again, people fail to rightly divide. There is only one place in the Bible that mentions "fallen from grace".



    Galatians 5:4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    It isn't the person who sins who falls from grace, in Galatians it's the person who is fastidiously attempting to approach God on the basis of his own achievement and merit. It is someone who tries to keep the law who has fallen from grace. It wasn't people who were living carelessly or whatever that Paul accused of falling from grace, it was people who were seeking to save themselves and to introduce merit into God's plan of pure grace. It was those trying to get to heaven by good works who had removed themselves from a foundation, the platform of grace.



    What do the scriptures say.



    John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


    Notice that he doesn't say "If my sheep follow me I will give unto them eternal life". In Romans we read:



    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    and we find that Heaven isn't a reward for good people, it's a gift for bad people. Wages is something we've worked for, something we have earned, something we have coming to us. Our wages is death! A gift is always free to the recipient because it's been fully paid for by the giver. You'll notice it's through Jesus Christ, not in us, not in our religion, moral code, or good works that we get the gift of eternal life. Notice that He gives eternal life, then He says "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no one is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand".



    Now there are 5 statements here concerning Christ's sheep. 1. My sheep hear my voice!



    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Some people have thought that this means that some people can't be saved, but that's not the teaching here at all. If we look down at the next verse it says:



    John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    So we see that it's when we hear the Word of God, and when we learn (receive, believe) that we come to Christ, we receive eternal life. So we have:



    1. My sheep hear my voice, and



    2. I know them, and



    3. they follow me And



    4. I give unto them eternal life; and



    5. they shall never perish



    Notice it doesn't say some, or half, or 95%... of them won't perish, it says THEY referring to all his sheep shall NEVER perish. It also doesn't say something like "not for a long time".



    These are the 5 distinct things it says about those who are God's sheep, and not one of them if you'll notice, is conditional on any other.



    Then there are some who say that you could jump out of the hand of the Lord? Satan or anyone else can not plucks us out of HIS hand because God is greater then all.



    But what if we jump, if God's hand were open enough for us to jump, wouldn't it be open enough for Satan to pluck us out of His hand or someone else?



    But you see we're not talking in this passage about an open hand, were talking about a closed hand. A hand that is closed for the believers protection. You may believe that you are holding on to God, but in actually when your are saved, God is holding on to you. Once we recognize what salvation is, it is a lot easier to recognize why you can't lose it.



    "If you stop believing, would you be back under the wrath of God?"



    People take scriptures like Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 and they seem to think that this means that a believer can lose his salvation.



    Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


    You have to look at the fact that the book of Hebrews was addressed to Hebrews, Many of the ancient manuscripts say at the top TO HEBREWS!!! It was written to people who were tempted to go back from faith in Christ to the animal sacrificial system. They had been exposed to the teaching that Christ died for their sins and now they were leaving that to go back to the sacrificial system to the temple that was still standing about to be destroyed in 70 AD. Paul in Hebrews says "having tasted of the powers of the coming age" (that is the millennial age) now they cant go back. There is no more sacrifice for sins. They can go back and offer the animals but it won't make a dent in anything. God isn't accepting animal sacrifice now that He has presented his Son as a savior for sinners. It says it's impossible to renew them under repentance seeing they crucified themselves the Son of God afresh. The people that teach from those passages that you can lose your salvation, never teach that you could regain it. That's interesting! The churches that teach that you can lose your salvation are always appealing to you getting it back. They're always calling sliders back to God. Well do you find anyone in the Bible that was saved twice? Does it say in the scripture that you must be born again again? Is there any offer in scripture to be reconciled a second or third time? No it's not in there simply because its impossible, having been saved only to become lost again. Those who were rejecting the finished work of Christ were committing the unpardonable sin, something only a first century Jew could do! They were trampling Him underfoot, counting His shed blood unholy, and preferring the blood of animals. In the tenth chapter Paul tells them that though they take lambs to the Temple, they will not find God there..."there remains no more sacrifice for sins." When Bible teachers take a passage that refers to Israel’s setting aside, tear it from its context, and attempt to apply it to individual members of the Body of Christ they dishonor God and do us a disservice. Saved people are saved from all possibility of ever again being condemned (Romans 8:33-34). Christ died to become our Savior...not our probation officer!
     
  3. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Well what if we sin?



    Then the question you should ask is How much sin would it take?

    Adam lost the universal ball game by one sin, and that sin was not even a large one by man's standards. I mean he didn't commit adultery, or murder or steal. He didn't beat his wife or get drunk or anything like that. He disobeyed a single command.



    Now when Christ was asked what is the greatest commandment, He said to love God with all of your mind soul strength and heart and He said the second is similar, love your neighbor as you love yourself. If this is the greatest commandment then the greatest sin must me the disobedience of the greatest commandment. Yet have you or me or anyone else for that matter have ever for one day, for one hour, for even one minute loved God with every fiber of our being and loved our neighbor as ourselves? I don't think so! You and I and everyone else have been guilty on a daily, hourly, momentary basis of transgressing the greatest commands of all. It took Christ to die for us. It took GOD no one else, not a super human, or a human, a sinner, or an angel or anything or anyone else, it took GOD HIMSELF to die for us.



    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


    So it was GOD who had to go to the cross and die a human spiritual death in payment for the wages of sin for you and for me.



    That means then that nothing less then God himself dieing for us on the cross could get us into heaven. Paul put it this way, he said:



    Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    Obviously no law, not even the perfect law that came from the drawing board of heaven, the law of the Lord, could save us. 2 Corinthians 3 says that that law can only condemn and slay sinners. You see sinful man can't keep a perfect and just law. The law was given to us not to show us that we are basically good, but to show us that we are basically bad. Unholy people can't keep a holy law.



    Some people will say that "I'm not bad!" Yes that's by your standards, or maybe by my standards, because we can look down the street and find someone else that's worse then we are. If we think God marks on a curve, then we come out smelling like a rose, but God puts us under his own cat scanner and his cat scanner proves differently. Christ said to the most religious people in the world:



    Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?


    Ah hah… see! He said:




    Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

    These things come from the heart of man, they don't come from, as some suggest, from our environment. They come from with in us. The Bible says:



    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Proverbs 17:3 The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.
    Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.


    Everyone has the same fallen nature as everyone else. You have the same fallen nature as Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, and even the same fallen nature as your grandma who wouldn't hurt a fly. Just like The Lord of the Flies you have the capacity, given the right amount of time and circumstances, to commit any kind of evil.



    One of the things you should learn when studying the doctrine of salvation is understanding what it means to be lost. We are so completely lost without Christ that the only way that God could find a way to save us was for God Himself to become flesh (human, Christ) and go to the cross and there dieing the death of a criminal for you and for me. All the churches, all the good deeds, and everything else could not do it.



    Did you know if you wanted to be saved and go to heaven by doing good works, you would have to keep God's law. Romans chapter 2 says if you were going to be saved by the law, then you would have to keep it perfectly.



    Let me side track for one second. People like to read into Romans chapter 2



    Romans 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

    and say "See, we are saved by good works!" or "See there is a contradiction!". Consistently in the Epistles of Paul we are taught salvation by grace, through faith, apart from works. Is this one passage inconsistent? No, for before explaining God's plan of salvation by grace, he must first show the basic principles of divine justice, for God does only that which is right. God will reward the good with eternal life, if there are any who are truly good. That there are none to claim this reward does not alter the basic principle. Let the Apostle teach one lesson at a time. Here he says simply: "God is just; He will reward the good and punish the evil." Then, later he goes on to say: "There is none righteous... there is none that doeth good..." (Rom. 3:10-12).
     
  4. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Anyway James says this too, he says:



    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

    If you were to keep the whole law hypothetically, and yet offended in one point, you would be guilty of all. There are 613 commandments in the law of the Lord. The minute you or I put myself onto the law of the Lord, as a means of salvation, the minute we do that, we must keep the law perfectly. Never even break the least commandment. If you were hanging over a cliff by a chain with 613 links, how many links need to break for you to be painted on the canyon floor? Obviously only one. That's what James is saying. and yet only one person has ever done that and that person is Christ. He kept the whole law perfectly, he's the only one that could say to the prince, the ruler of this world, that he has nothing on me.



    John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

    You and I can't say that. He is the only one that the law can point to and say NOT GUILTY. To break one commandment is to break all because its like thrusting your fist up to God rebelling against him, just like Adam.



    So the one side of the coin is that nothing less then God himself dieing our death on the cross could ever save us, the other side of the coin is that nothing else is needed. Christ's death satisfied the Father. He's the satisfaction for our sins, and for the sins of the whole world. It is His death that saves, so we come to Him and do the only thing that we can do without doing anything and that is to believe in what He has done for us, and we are thus saved for eternity.



    You who are reading this will never cease to be the son or daughter of your parents. You could have maybe been disowned, maybe not, but that would not change that fact that you were born of them and derived their nature mediately, and immediately the nature of Adam and Eve. Nothing could change that. There's no eraser big enough. Nothing could ever change that fact that your father is your father and your mother is your mother. You will always into eternity future be their son or daughter. Nothing can change that. Then when you are born again, anew, born spiritually when you are saved, born of God... nothing could change that, you can't cease to be God's child by regeneration because you sin or you cease to believe. These are inventions of man because of one simple thing: man has the greatest difficulty in believing grace. See grace is not the product of human genius. If you took the 100 most brilliant men in all of history and put them together in a room for a million years, they would not invent salvation by grace through faith.



    Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

    The way that seems universally right to man is human merit, achievement, works, good works, religion, ah yes but God says



    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
     
  5. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Well what about the passages that seem to teach that the believer could be lost?



    Ezekiel 3:20 When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.



    Well this was true under law but,



    Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.



    The law can only pronounce a man's doom. Every transgression receives a recompense it says in scripture. But now we are not under the law, but under grace. Then people quote other passages like



    Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.




    The soul that sinneth it shall die. Don't they understand that it doesn't say that the soul that sins willfully or continually or overetly, it simply says the soul that sins. The least infraction could cause death. People say if you commit murder or adultery today you will lose your salvation. Well first of all Christ died for those sins already, if I were to commit them, even though I don't have any plans on doing so. Since he died for those sins, that makes me not want to commit them. He already died for future sins. I don't have any plans to go out because God has erased my blackboard and thrown it away. That's an inducement to me, not to sin.



    See there are those people that say if you teach people that they are not under law that they are saved by grace and that God isn't crediting their accounts anymore, they will go out and life carelessly. Well dear friend... what is it that you want to do? This is really a sad commentary on people then. When Crusoe saved Friday from certain death, Friday didn't spit in his face, he knelt before Crusoe and placed Crusoe's foot on his head symbolizing not that Crusoe has saved him, he now loved Crusoe and wanted to serve him for the rest of his life. Robinson Crusoe was written by a believer to demonstrate the gospel. This is the attitude a believer should have not, "well now I'm free I can do anything". It should be now I'm free I can do what I should. Then there's


    Matthew 24:13
    But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.



    Well what is the end in view in Matt 24:13... the word "end" appears four times in that chapter. Never in reference to the end of a man's life but in reference to the end of the tribulation period. "He that shall endure [survive] unto the end [of the tribulation period] the same shall be saved [ delivered] the Greek word simply means deliverance and its context must determine whether it's deliverance from the wrath of the tribulation period or deliverance from the penalty condemnation of sin. Context must indicate that. Paul says that the prayers of believers will turn to his salvation. The Greek word there is deliverance. Paul was already saved. He wasn't asking for people to pray for him that he might be saved. He was talking about his deliverance and his political and physical situation. He said to the believers:



    Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.



    He didn't say "work for your salvation", he said work OUT your salvation (that which you already possess) with fear and trembling. Then he went on saying:



    Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.



    How does he do that? Well Philippians 2:13 should always be joined with 1 Thessalonians 2:13



    Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
    1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.




    That the word of God works in the believer effectively. That's how God works in us both the desire His will and to realize His will in our lives. Then there's:



    1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    1 Corinthians 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    1 Corinthians 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.




    He doesn't want to preach to you, Paul runs to win the race because he buffets his body and keeps it under lest having preached to others he himself should be a castaway. The people that like to think you can lose your salvation, like to go to that passage and say "see if you don't buffet your body, you could become a castaway". They always want to read into these words the loss of salvation. It doesn't say anything about losing salvation. The Greek athlete trained for 10 months, 7 days a week for the Greek games. He could be disqualified on the eve of the games for being caught eating what we could consider today a donut or going home to sleep with his wife or drinking and alcoholic beverage. The rules were very strict. If he were caught 15 min before the games he would be disqualified, he was a castaway, he was rejected. They didn't kill him, or it didn't have any to do with his loss of life or salvation, Paul is not talking about loss of salvation and life, he's talking about Christian ministry and service. He said in my life and in my ministry I run in order to win. I'm like the Greek athlete, I don't want to come in second or third. I bend every effort I invest my body and soul into the service of Christ lest having preached to others I should be rejected from this ministry, from this service, certainly not from heaven. We have to recognize that salvation is eternal. If I have eternal life, how long will my life last? If I have life for a year, then I have a year of life, if I have eternal life, then I have life for eternity.



    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.




    Grace and works are mutually exclusive...
     
  6. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.




    See God in eternity past intended for you and I as believers to be rich in good works, instant in good works, consistent in good works. He wants our lives to be characterized by good works on a daily basis. The believer is told in scripture to be careful to maintain good works but my friend, those good works must issue from our salvation, they do not issue in our salvation for then we could boast. Then scripture could not say accurately that salvation is not of ourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest anyone should boast.



    Now this whole answer couldn't do justice to the topic of eternal salvation but I trust that it has helped you and has made you think. I just want you to have the assurance, the comfortableness, the blessing, the effort, the strength and encouragement that come from knowing that God does all the saving, we do all the being saved.



    Thanks for reading...

    Ray



    P.S.

    If salvation is "by grace through faith, plus nothing," why does James say that faith without works is dead? (James 2:20)

    James, writes to saved Jews about how to treat each other in and out of the synagogue, and with the coming Tribulation Period in mind. (James 1:1. This verse is completely ignored by most readers. Is it not as much the Word of God as the rest of the book? It states plainly that this message is to, for, and about Jews of the dispersion! In James 2:2, the word translated assembly is actually synagogue in the original Greek.) He does not write about personal salvation from sin, nor does he address the Body of Christ - God reserves that task for the Apostle Paul alone (Romans 11:13. The "I’ is emphatic. "I, in contradistinction to others."). James is "for" us but not "to" us or "about" us. These Jewish believers were saved people with a "dead" faith (i.e. "unproductive"). Abraham’s body is said to have been "dead" by Paul in Romans (Romans 4:19). This is a figure of speech and not to be taken literally. Abraham’s body was very much alive, literally. It was dead sexually. He walked and talked, and ate and drank, and did all the things that an old man can do, proving that he was as alive as ever. But he couldn’t make love to Sarah and produce an heir. Though once virile, he had become impotent.



    These "Messianic Jews" of James’ day had been saved by a living faith in Christ through the Kingdom Gospel (James 1:18). They were obviously not acting toward each other as saved people, in any dispensation, should act! (James 2:1-4,15-16). They were living people with dead ministries, like many believers today. Their dead faith had not cost them their salvation - it could not. Nothing can reverse the crosswork of God’s Son! (Hebrews 7:25; Philippians 1:6). It had cost them their ministries, however, just as your faith and mine when it is "dead" costs us our ministries, but not our salvation.



    Many people ask honestly about this verse, or raising it as an issue. It should help us to remember that the works that James, as a devout Jew, demanded from the Jews that he addressed were the works of the Law. But "...You (the Body of Christ) are NOT under law, but UNDER GRACE" (Romans 6:14).



    Works, that is Law works, were a required demonstration of faith in the Jewish Dispensation. They did not save then, nor do they now (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:19-24). James asks, 2:14, if a man say he has faith, but has not works, "Can faith save (‘deliver’) him?" Since the people to whom he was writing were already saved (‘delivered’) from condemnation, they did not need to be saved in that sense again. These eternally secure believers did need to be saved, or delivered from the spiritual deadness that had settled on their lives and ministries.

    You might want to try to read through this book... "Things That Differ" by C. R. Stam
    This book I promise will dispell all of the confusion... you can buy it or read the whole book here...
    http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm
    Enjoy... I hope it clears a lot of things up for you!
    Remember.... you need to

    [size=+1]"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth."[/size]

    [size=+1]--II Tim. 2:15.[/size]​
     
  7. Tzeitel

    Tzeitel Member

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    you said it rmarchy
     
  8. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    rmarchy, I can produce as many scriptures as you did to show that a child of God can so sin as to be lost eternally. I will return to the first comments I made on this subject. If it is the case that a child of God can so sin as to be lost eternally, why are there so many scriptures warning him or her about falling away? I have a tract written by a preacher who holds your position. In it he says that a child of God can murder, rape, steal, ect. and yet his or her soul will be saved eternally. Such makes a mockey of the holiness of God and the holiness He expects of His people. Also I have tried for the last thirty years to get one of you fellows in a public debate on this issue and as of this day not one has accepted my challenge. I say "put up or shut up."

    Prosecutor
     
  9. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    2Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. [Prov 26:11]


    People always object to eternal security, that precious doctrine, which when properly grasped is the greatest motivation for godliness, for holiness, for service that the world will ever see. Grace is never a loophole to sin, but as an incentive to serve. It’s never a ticket to licentiousness; it’s always an invitation to holiness.

    Just stop and think about it. I realize that I was hell bound and hell-deserving, when my sin was as bad as it could ever be, when I was as lost as lost could be, and spiritually dead, alienated, without God, without Christ, without hope in the world. God Almighty came all the way down from heaven’s thrown to earth’s cross to die not His own death, for He had none to die, not for His own sins for He never thought or committed one sinful act, but for yours and mine. And on that cross forsaken by God and man, He saved you and me, not in part but in whole. He died for every one of my sins, past, present, and future, perfectly addressing them and thoroughly satisfying the righteousness of God in His death on that cruel and criminal cross. Now would I not want to serve Him? I didn't say, will I serve Him perfectly in this life, I said will I not WANT to serve Him perfectly in this life. Won’t that fact encourage me to bend every effort to do what He wants me to do as He outlines it for me in His word. Have you ever heard of a fireman, having rescued someone from a burning building, changing his mind because of failures on the part of the one rescued, lifting the person back on his shoulder, climbing back up the ladder and throwing the ingrate back into the flames? No! Nor will God spurn the substitutionary sacrifice of His Son because of your failures or mine! Truly knowing that we are eternally secure does not lead to sinful practices, but to an ever-increasing desire to serve Him Who so generously forgives.


    Ok so now it says “But it has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog turns back upon his own vomit,”

    Notice that the dog in Peter's illustration never ceased to be a dog. He was a dog when he wandered away from his vomit and he was still a dog when he returned. The sow was washed but never became a sheep. A bath didn't change her inner nature, only her outward appearance.

    Ok so now read carefully… it says “But it has happened to THEM according to the true proverb…”

    Many people skip right over the emphasis here. Who is the THEM? You see a text without a context is a pretext. Who is Peter comparing to a dog that has just vomited and a sow that has just had a bath? Well we only need to go back to the beginning of the second chapter. I won’t go through all of it here, but it compares Lot to the unrighteous around him and says God delivered Lot and consumed the unrighteous. Now the 9th verse says…

    2Pe 2:9 the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trial, and to keep the unjust to the day of judgment to be punished;

    That’s the context in which we find the dog that vomited and the sow that took a bath.

    The THEM is the unjust, which is Peter’s way of referring to the unsaved and he refers to the saved as the godly, or pious is more accurate.

    2Pe 2:9 the Lord knows how to deliver the godly (pious, the saved) out of trial, and to keep the unjust (unrighteous, unsaved) to the day of judgment to be punished;

    There you have the two groups, the saved and the lost. Lot was said to be a saved man, a just man. It doesn’t mean he was upright in his conduct. He got drunk, and got both of his daughters pregnant. He was out to swindle Abraham earlier on. He chose to live in the city where sin was abundant, and yet it vexed his soul because he was a saved man. He was a just man, not just in his conduct all the time, but just in his position, his standing, not his state.

    We must always know the difference between standing and state. Standing is what God has made you to be in Christ. State is what you are currently doing with what God has done for you. Standing is your position in Christ which is undeminishable, unalterable, and unforfeitable. State is where you are right now, today, in your life as a believer. [size=+1]


    [/size]
     
  10. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    For the Corinthians, their standing was as perfect as any believers, as perfect as Paul’s, as perfect as Peter’s, but their state was deplorable. Some of them were getting drunk at the Seder meal. They were fighting with each other, splitting the body of Christ into factions. Some of them were stopping off at pagan temples and fornicating with the priestesses there. And yet they are called saints, they are said to be sanctified in Christ and they are promised that they are being preserved blameless until the day of Christ.

    They are NOT told that they were never saved or they wouldn’t be doing such things. They are NOT told that they were saved but the fact that they are doing such things indicates that they have become lost again. They are told that their bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit therefore they ought to glorify God in their bodies and in their spirits which are God’s.


    You got to look at and study what God says in His word and not what man and his traditions thinks that God says. The Lord knows how to deliver the pious, the saved, out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust, the unsaved, for the day of judgment to be punished. These are the people that Peter is talking about. This is a picture of the unsaved person who reformed and went back to their old ways. Morality is not Christianity and reformation is not salvation! Every year millions of people profess Christian faith and their lifestyles change dramatically. Some are truly saved, but many are merely "washed." The dog returns to his vomit because it is his nature to do so. The sow may be bathed a thousand times but the hog-wallow remains her natural habitat, but these people never come to trust in Christ and his finished work on the cross solely for their salvation. The sow takes a bath; the dog walks away from his vomit. And then they go back to their vomit, to their mud hole, and we wonder why? They have come out, they have heard about Christ, they may have given up drinking or fornicating or swearing, and then the next thing we know they’re right back off where they started and they’re worse off then before; not to say that saved person can’t do these things, Corinthians proves that, but that is not what the circumcision Apostle Peter is talking about in his second letter to Jews of the Diaspora. He is talking about people whom he called "false teachers" (2 Peter 2: 1). That they are unsaved is clear from their description in the chapter, especially the references to them as "unrighteous" (unsaved), "irrational beasts by nature," (lit.), and "waterless fountains" (v. 17), which could never be said of believers as we have the Holy Spirit who never leaves us and is our guarantee of Heaven.

    The passage says that they deny the Lord who bought them (v. 1), and some think this proves that they had once been saved. But the word "bought" is the word "paid for" in the Greek, and not the intensified form of the verb that would mean "purchased them out of the market place." Christ died for all, but not all will be saved because not all accept His paying the price for them. Peter compares their case to the "Angels who sinned," to the "ancient world" of Noah's day, and to the "cities of Sodom and Gomorra," none of whom had salvation and then lost it.

    They are said to have forsaken the right way and gone astray (v. 15), but not said ever to have embraced the right way. They temporarily escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of Christ as the sow temporarily escaped the muck of the wallow, but the sow remained a sow despite her bath and these remained unsaved despite their moral reforms.

    The dog left his vomit temporarily to pursue other interests but never became a sheep, though he may have spent some time in a pasture. Wolves wear sheep's clothing in Scripture in order to fool the sheep, but a wolf is not a sheep nor a sheep a wolf. They have radically differing natures!

    Salvation that cannot keep one safe from any possibility of future condemnation would not be salvation at all! It would merely be probation. It would be a fresh start, a clean page, a second chance, but it would not be salvation. No one has ever been saved and then lost, because salvation cannot be lost! "He that hears my words and trusts in Him that sent me, has everlasting life, and does not come into condemnation, but is passed from death to life" (John 5:24).

    "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth." II Tim. 2:15. [size=+1]

    http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm
    [/size]
     
  11. precept

    precept Member

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    Not so! Read Isaiah 14:12-16 Lucifer Once believed in God; he was created by God just as us sinners were; he believed in God and was made a covering Cherub by God... He then stopped believing in God and got thousands of other beings who also onced believe in God to stop believing in Him as they were accustomed to believing.....Lucifer, and the angels.who with him had stopped believing in God as GOD! were all cast out of heaven; and that despite God's Grace that pardoned Rachel, and Mary, former prostitutes. The difference being Rachel and Mary, AND like all True Christians; is that Rachel and Mary repented of their sins, and hated the sins that caused their Saviour's death..Satan and the angels that rebelled with him; did not repent of their sins; neither did they hate the practice of sinning as can be seen from the havoc of sin they have rained on God's earth.

    God Himself referred to His planned destruction of satan and his anfels together with all who persist in a life of sin; and that includes all who accept His son as Saviour; but who also use His Son as an excuse to contioue in sin....in His words! 2 Peter 2:4..."For if God spared not the angels that SINNED, but cast them down to hell, and deliverd them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgement; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly.........verse 14...."having their eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls; an heart they have excercised with coveteous practices; cursed children WHICH HAVE FORSAKEN THE RIGHT WAY,[forsaken implies previously following the right way] AND ARE GONE ASTRAY, following the wau of Balaam the somn of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; These former Christians are condemned by Paul as verse 17..."Wells without water, clouds that are carried with a temptest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever......verse 20..again referring to the former Christians....For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ "THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN, AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE WITH THEM THAN THE BEGINNING!. FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAD KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIVERED UNTO THEM. BUT IS HAPPENED UNTO THEM ACCORDING TO THE TRUE PROVERB, THE DOG IS TURNED TO HIS OWN VOMIT AGAIN;AND THE SOW TGHAT WAS WASHED TO HER WALLOWING IN THE MIRE".

    My exhortation to you! Stop! Do not mis-represent the truth of scripture! Mis-representing the word of the Lord bears an exteme penalty!


    QUOTE]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.[/QUOTE]

    Your above quote highlights your misunderstanding of scripture.
    Paul addressed in the main Gentiles, who had no previous knowledge of law keeping[they were Gentiles, not Jews. Neither had they any previous knowledge of the scriptures in any regard! Paul's other audience was unbelieving Jews, who themselves crucified Jesus as an imposter--The Jews of Judaism did not believe in a heaven; nor did they believe in Jesus; hence they DID NOT BELEIVE IN THE CONCEPT OF SALVATION FROM SIN; OR THE CONCEPT OF GRACE; OR ANY CONCEPT THAT INCLUDED A REWARD IN HEAVEN FOR BELIEVING IN JESUS... It stands therefore to reason that Paul addressed the concept of Law keeping to those who believed in Judaism; and who believed that THE KEEPING OF THE LAWS AS GIVEN BY GOD IN SCRIPTURE AS WELL AS THE OTHER 613 LAWS AS GIVEN BY JUDAISM'S LEADERS WOULD BE EFFICACIOUS IN GUARANTEEING THE BEST AFTERLIFE THAT LAWKEEPING COULD BUY! You see it was the belief in Judaism and still is; that the "good works" done in this life will be rewarded in "kind" in the afterlife. Or the more "good works" done in this life--The more sumptious will be your reward in the afterlife. Judaism, does not believe in a hell or in satan. Judaism believes that if you are really evil; it will be that much less of a reward for you compared to the Jew who excelled in "good works" when both die and cross over into the afterlife.
    Paul's teaching to the "Hebrews" who believed in law keeping for their reward in the afterlife also included Christian Jews who also thought that they must include this attention to lawkeeping together with accepting Christ as Saviour.[see Acts cahpters 15 and 21]. But more importantly no where did Paul indicate that the Christian Jew should stop keeping the laws of Judaism after accepting Christ as Saviour. Even Paul himself kept the ceremonial laws of Judaism[see Acts 21:17-27].


    CONTINUED
     
  12. precept

    precept Member

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    Not even Satan is capable of having ]B] any human do anything that said human would not want to do.[/B] And to infer that Satan would be trying to "pluck" us against our will from God's "closed fist" is not in keeping with what satan is allowed by God. In case you would need to know satan's limitations re his powers over us humans; read again the story of the garden of Eden...His only power was to tempt Eve...Eve voluntarily ate the fruit...Adam voluntarily ate the fruit....IF THEY HAD CHOSE NOT TO EAT...THEY WOULD NOT HAVE SINNED...Satan had no power to force them to eat...AND GOD DID NOT "HOLD THEM WITH A "CLOSED FIST" thus preventing satan from "plucking them out of His hand". Or did He open His fist a little and satan "jumped at the opportunity" and "plucked Adam and Eve from His hand" making them sin! And did God allow satan to "pluck" Cain and not Abel!!? And why did God allow satan to "pluck" Cain and not Abel!!?



    Your implication of God's holding us the sinner against the sinner's wishes, is a misrepresentation of the FREEDOM WE HAVE IN SERVING GOD, BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM SO MUCH. None who loves the Lord would be looking for an opportunity to "jump" because God relaxed his "closed fist". the child of God lives freely in the BOSUM OF HIS FATHER...HE IS FREE TO COME AND GO AT WILL...But if he sins against His Father of Love, he, the sinner is overcome with remorse and on his knees he asks his Father's forgiveness...a forgiveness freely given by His Loving Father...because His Loving father planned it so when He gave all heaven- His Son, just so that he can foreely forgive every REPENTANT SINNER!



    Here you SAY THAT IT IS more important to [GOD THAT HE SAVES US THE SINNER; whether we the sinner DESIRE TO BE SAVED OR NOT! And so because God WANTS US MORE THAN WE WANT HIM; When He grabs unto us["a hand that is closed"] He holds unto us whether WE WANT HIM TO OR NOT! This teaching flies into the face of truth! Jesus Himself, the Author of Salvation; and in HIS scriptures taught that "any who would be saved" MUST forsake a previous life of sin" Luke 14:26-27. "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother and wife, and children, and bretheren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE! The people to whom Jesus addressed thes words , were people who served God! Only "those persons" who served God would want to "bear a cross" for Hiim; but which if they CHOSE NOT TO BEAR! would disqualify them from being a disciple of Christ. Similarly any Christian who puts the intersts of others above that of His Lord; is told by Christ that said Christian IS NOT A DISCIPLE OF CHRIST, NO MATTER HOW MUCH HE THINKS "GOD IS HOLDING HIM WITH A CLOSE FIST"!



    Satan "stopped believing" He is "now under the wrath of God"....the people in the Ante-deluvian world, initially had only the word of God to believe in...they rejected God and belief in God...they also fell "under the wrath of God".....Annanias and Saphira were Christians who believed in Jesus and were baptized Christians as well---only that "belief in Jesus" doesn't come with a a permit to lie and the Lord killed them both right in the eyes of their fellow believers..... The Lord chose the Israelites and referred to them as "His special people"....yet he caused a heathen king Nebuchadnezzar to capture His Holy Temple, plundering its sacred chambers--especially the Holy of Holies into which if a priest would enter without entering on God's wishes, such a priest would die instantly...yet because His "special people" preferred worshipping idols instead of Him, He caused the heathen king to kill and capture His entire kingdom of "His special people". His said "special people" were still offering sacrifices to Him when the same God allowed the Roman General Titus to destroy His Temple, "mingling the blood of the officiating priests with the blood of the sacrifices the priests thought they were offering to Him". [ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE JEWS WHO BELIEVED THEY WERE WORSHIPPING HIM DIED AT THE HANDS OF THE ROMANS] similarly as SATAN AND THE ANGELS WHO WERE ALSO WORSHIPPING HIM but who changed their minds and stopped worshipping Him; they are all 'UNDER THE WRATH OF GOD AWAITING THE FIRES OF HELL".



    Satan was a believer! He lost his!



    Hebrews 6:4
    The above quote describes satan to a "T"




    precept
     
  13. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    salvation does NOT apply to angels.. only to mankind- you can't compare the characteristics of a spirit-being with a human being. Satan was never saved- he was created as a servant. Humans were created to have fellowship with God and they lost that fellowship through sin. But we can gain it back by believing in what Jesus did on the cross. Jesus did NOT die for Satan's sin. He never was and never can be saved.
     
  14. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    precept, you made some good points. However your use of Isaiah 14:12-16 is not a reference to the fall of Satan but the fall of the king of Babylon. (verse 4) When an inspired writer tells us who it is that is being discussed, we have no right to teach otherwise. This concept of the fall of Satan from this text has been around for centuries but is incorrect. The word "Lucifer" as used in the King James Version was rendered "O Day-Star" in the American Standard of 1901. The English Strandard Version that came out in 2002 has the same rendering as the ASV.
    Prosecutor
     
  15. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    rmarchy, you have yet to produce a single Scripture that proves that once you are saved you can never so sin as to be lost eternally. Your attempt of making 2 Peter 2:20-22 as a reference to those who have never been saved places you in the same company of those that Peter in the next chapter charged in respect to Paul's teachings "to twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures" (2 Peter 3:16) Those of us who have dealt with this subject over the years are aware of every Scripture that is used in an attempt to defend this doctrine. Actually we can argue your case as well as you can.
    Prosecutor
     
  16. precept

    precept Member

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    Your above quote makes the assumption that God condemned Satan to the fires of hell without giving satan a chance to repent of his sinning against God. You also by so intimating, say as well that the angels who sinned against God; also were not given the chance to repent, and were condemned as well as soon as they sinned against- condemned to the fires of hell.

    If such is not your assumption then you must assume that had satan and the angels repented of their sinning against God, their sin like ours would have been forgiven. With the only violaters of God's law "sin free"ie. satan and the angels who sinned, there would be none in God's universe with sin, and consequently no need for Jesus to die for the sins of anybody. God would have made humans, as He did-"free of sin"-and since there was no sinners-satan and his angels, now being reconciled to God- there would be no temptation to which Adam and Eve would have been exposed. Thus there would be no sin committed by humans on earth--hence no need for Jesus to die for non-existing sins.

    That Jesus had to die, was solely because of "sins"; And the blame for those "sins" must be charged to the originator of "SINS"-SATAN! And it makes no difference who committed the sins- Satan or us Jesus would still have to die, providing the ultimate reason to once and for all eradicate "SINS" from His universe.

    And yes Jesus 'did die for Satan's sins'....and here's the proof...1 John 3:8..." He that committeth sin[you and me] is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning[satan's originating sin] For this purpose the Son of God was manifested[if there was no sin; there would have been no need for Jesus to die]it is because of Jesus' death that Satan and his work of sin is forever destroyed"
    More proof...Hebrerws 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;[or Jesus became human with one purpose in mind] THAT THROUGH DEATH[His death] HE MIGHT DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS THE DEVIL".
    And more proof is yet available---just ask!


    precept
     
  17. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    How saved is saved? Can a saved person ever be lost or is once saved always saved? The entire Bible is God’s word, but it doesn’t all have the same purpose. Every scripture is God breathed, but the Pauline epistles are addressed to us in this dispensation of grace. It is vitally important for us to study the entire Bible, but to major in the Pauline epistles.

    Now the book of Romans is arguably the handbook of salvation. If a dying man on the road was minutes away from death, and you came along with the Bible, you wouldn’t talk to him about the creation account. You wouldn’t talk to him about Noah’s Ark, and you wouldn’t talk to him about the proclaimed Kingdom at hand while Christ was on earth. What that man needs is the salvation message. Just like you wouldn’t expect to talk to this dying man about perhaps the specifics of the tabernacle, so you wouldn’t expect salvation clearly taught by a bag of proof texts.

    People will come up and challenge salvation and eternal security and say well what do you do about this verse in Matthew, and what do you do about this verse in Ezekiel, or what about these in Revelation and so on… and as soon as you try to answer them, instantly those people are right back in their little bag of proof texts. I know where these people are coming from because I used to be there. Been there and done that. I used to run around with my invisible bag of proof texts and I used to challenge people who believed in eternal security and say, well what do you do with this verse or what do you do with this one. They would tell me and then I wouldn’t listen and I would jump to the next objection I had. My whole understanding of salvation came from a verse in Leviticus, 2 verses in Exodus, 1 in Isaiah, 3 in Ezekiel, 2 in Matthew, 1 in Mark, 2 in James, and 3 in Revelation.

    Look if that was the right way to construct a doctrine of salvation, God would have given a bag of proof texts to Paul and said send this to the church in Rome. BUT HE DID NOT DO THAT.

    If there’s anything that is as plain as the nose on Jimmy Durante’s face :), it’s that God did not send a bag of proof texts off to Rome to straighten them out on salvation and to straighten out all the other assemblies and to straighten us out in our day and age. What He sent was a very logical, legal, consistent, progressive book that’s line upon line and precept upon precept. Now God could have sent a bag full of proof texts if that was the right way to do anything, but it isn’t.


    Do you know when the cultists come to your door 2 by 2 and ring your doorbell, they’re full of proof texts. And if you say I’m saved and I can never be lost, once saved is always saved, I have eternal security, Christ bought heaven for me on the cross, my death has been died, my sins have been paid for, tomorrow’s as well as yesterday’s, they’ll say well what do you do with this verse, and they have a verse from Matthew. Weeeeelllll what do you do with this verse, and they have one from Luke. Then they pop one up from Revelation and 2 from James and 3 from Ezekiel, that they have in their bag of proof texts.

    God doesn’t operate with a bag of proof texts my friend. The cultists do that, denominations do that as well, as well as many other people. Even when you run into the clergy from this church, or that church, that long ago have departed from the Pauline gospel and lost the mystery clearly taught in Ephesians chapter 3, and then lost justification by faith alone, not of works, and lost the distinctiveness and uniqueness of Paul’s message, when you run into these people, what do they have? They have a bag of proof texts.

    You see God knew that that is an exercise in futility. It would be for Him and it certainly is for man. Job asked, can man be just before God? God used Job to ask the question and He used Paul to answer that question, and he used Paul to answer it with the book of Romans, the handbook of salvation. And again, it’s not a collection of proof texts. It’s an argument that begins with a basement, and comes up with the walls, and then puts a roof on it. So if we really want to understand salvation, we don’t need a bag of proof texts. You can prove anything by isolating passages, which Peter forbids us to do.

    2 Peter 1:20:
    knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture comes of private interpretation
    ,

    That is you can’t have a proof text and violate the context in which it’s found and violate the original language in which it’s written. If you take something out of its context and disregard its original language, of course you can prove anything you want.

    Let’s let God decide whether a saved person could ever be lost. Let God be true and every man a liar, (Romans 3:4). People try to find from human logic, they’ll say well God would really be the world’s greatest sucker if He saved you and then let you do anything you want. Well what is it that you want to do when you’re saved? What kind of a person are you? If a fireman saved you at the cost of his life, would you go by and spit on his grave? Only if you’re a fool, you see. If you recognize that Christ took you from the hell you deserve and saved you for a heaven you don’t deserve, are you going to then spit in His face, or kneel at His feet? Are you going to join those that flog Him, scourge Him, disgrace Him, mock Him, punch Him into unconsciousness and slap Him back into consciousness, blind fold Him, strip Him naked, crown Him with a crown of thorns, beat Him over the head with a stick, lead Him out to a garbage dump and spike Him to a cross, are you going to join that crowd? Only if you’re an absolute fool.
     
  18. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    You see grace is not an inducement to sin, it’s an inducement to holiness. When you grasp grace, when you stand before that cross at Calvary and look at your Creator dying your death, when you see your Savior taking all of your sins upon Him, He who knew no sin, taking all of your sins, past, present and future, small and great, nice and nasty, and allowing them to be judged in Him; If you can walk away from there saying “whoopee” now I’m free, and I can live it up, I can fornicate, get drunk, steal, lie, cheat on my wife, and murder, this is fantastic!!! Then there’s something wrong with you that heaven itself can’t fix. Of course you can do those things, but why would you want to?

    Eternal security is not a free pass to sinning, it's the freedom to serve. When I came to the realization that my salvation could never be diminished, let alone forfeited, and that once saved, always saved, and that salvation is eternal security; and if you’re not saved at the moment of trusting Christ from any possibility of ever descending into the lake of fire, then you’re NOT SAVED AT ALL! Probation is not salvation, and salvation is not probation. When I got my mind wrapped around that truth, I wanted to serve God more then ever, and you will too. Eternal security is the best motivation God could ever conceive from the drawing board of heaven to get the believer to serve Him.

    Dear friends, WHAT IS SALVATION??? Well one thing to do would be to start with the Pauline epistles, not ignoring the rest of scripture, but remember God called Paul uniquely, and He set the Kingdom program for the 12 apostles aside and instituted the program for the one apostle. He set aside the prophetic program, and introduced the mystery program (Ephesians 3). He interrupted Israel’s earthly program and began the heavenly program, which will conclude with the miracle of the rapture and Israel’s program will be resumed. God spoke to this apostle from heaven and this apostle now says without one ounce of bragging, I’ve had more personal appearances from Christ from heaven, more divine revelations then the 12. He says that, 1 Corinthians 15. He says he worked harder then the 12. Is that bragging? I think not. He worked harder because of dispensational reasons; because the 12 saw that the Kingdom gospel program was slowing down and being set aside, getting packed in ice and being put away in the freezer for the time being. They were told to go to all the world, yet they never got out of the land of Israel. The book of Acts covers the rest of their lives. They were all dead by the time the book of Acts concludes or shortly there after. So the stories of them going here or there and all over the world are wishful thinking.


    If you look at the book of Acts which covers roughly 38 years or so, you don’t find any mention of the 12 ever getting beyond Caesarea, which is well within the land of Israel. I know it says that they were to go to the entire world, to the Jew first, then to the Samaritans, then to the uttermost parts of the earth. Hey dear friend, they never did it. They never did it. In the book of Acts, if it happened, it would have been recorded in this historical bridge, a transitional book of two programs (Acts is not the book of the birth and growth of the Church, but of the fall of the favored nation, Israel. It explains, step by step, how and why the chosen people had to be set aside and salvation sent to the Gentiles apart from them; how and why the commission to the 12 had to be suspended and another apostle, Paul, raised up to go to the Gentiles with “the gospel of the grace of God.” Peter dominates the scene in the first part of Acts; Paul in the latter portion. The transition from the prophetic program, in which salvation was to go to the Gentiles through Israel, to the new program, under which salvation was to go the Gentiles apart from Israel, ( Acts 22:18, 13:46, 18:6, 28:28, Romans 11:30-33)).

    As a matter of fact, what is recorded is that only one of the 12 (Peter) went to went to one gentile in Caesarea, which is well with in Israel, and it’s not the uttermost parts of the earth at all. God raised up the apostle Paul to offer salvation to the whole world, and for the first time the whole world didn’t have to become Jewish. And He offered the same salvation to Jews and Gentiles now, without any distinction, and that’s the first time in 1500 years that God wasn’t making a distinction between His chosen, covenant people, and the Gentile world, which He had abandoned, given up to a reprobate mind (Romans 1:28).

    So if God were satisfied with a bag of proof texts, He would of said hey Paul, get a couple of verses from Genesis, that’s a pretty good book, and a few from Exodus, and you might find a few in Ezekiel; that’s a fun book. Get some from Matthew, 1 from Mark, 3 from James and 2 from Revelation, and send them off to Rome, BUT GOD DID NOT DO THAT my friend. And yet when people come to your door and say you can lose your salvation, what do they have? They have a bag of proof texts.


    Do they have any understanding of the book of Romans? Do they understand the great positional truths that Paul develops at the beginning of everyone of his epistles? Do they understand that the law was given to Moses, but that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ? Do they understand in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John that Christ was a Jew under Law teaching Jews under law, sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24)? Do they understand that the risen glorified Christ moved Paul to write to the Romans that you’re not under law but under grace? Do they understand the difference between Peter’s good news of an impending miraculous earthly kingdom, which we refer to as the millennial kingdom, which was rejected by Israel, and Paul’s good news of reconciliation of the grace of God?

    Get rid of your bag of proof texts, and get your nose into the Word of God, and learn what God says about salvation. Take some markers and start with Romans 1:1 and go all the way through Philemon 1:25, and you could even add the book of Hebrews, (but remember it’s written to Hebrews, and yet eternal security is rampant throughout that book as well) and highlight everything that became true of you the instant you trusted Christ. Regard the tenses of the verbs and the cases of the nouns, and you’ll see that you not only have been saved, you’ve been saved in time past with present day and on going results, but you’ve been completely saved in time past with permanent results. How can a saved person ever be lost? My spiritual birth was as real if not even more real then my fleshly birth. I can never cease to be who I am in the flesh biologically and now I can never cease to be who I am as a son of god spiritually. The birth from above is even more significant then the birth from below. To lose my salvation I would have to become unborn again, unredeemed, unreconciled, unpropitiated and so forth.
     
  19. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Is there a sin so great that Grace cannot forgive it? Could a person sin so many times that he would undo what had been done for him at Calvary? Is Grace like the flat earth envisioned by yesterday’s scientists, and can one sail off the edge of it? Does the Grace of God have limits or is it as limitless as the God of Grace Himself?

    "Grace" was a commonly used word in the Greco-Roman world of Paul’s day. The common thread of meaning winding through its various uses is "gift." All living languages are in a state of flux. Words lose old meanings or acquire new ones. God, in Scripture, took this old Greek word and, while retaining its essential core meaning of "gift" or "favor," invested it with a wealth of new meaning. The word, as used in the Pauline Epistles, reflects an element in God’s nature and a characteristic of His activity that could not be understood without this word. Grace, in the Epistles of God and Paul, is God’s favor apart from man’s merit. It is God’s favor in spite of man’s demerit. As a matter of fact, it is God’s favor apart from any question of merit or demerit in man. The amazing thing is that, while a Greek, or a Roman, or a Jew might be likely to give a gift to a friend, God gives His Gift to His enemies.


    An infinitely holy God giving salvation freely to a race under just condemnation is a concept foreign to all religion! A supremely powerful God Who becomes a man to die the death of a criminal in full payment of the wages of sin is beyond the ability of man to invent. The one hundred most brilliant humans in history given a million years to solve the problem of man’s sin would not and could not invent Grace. Grace came from Heaven’s drawing board. Grace is the genius of God. It is as infinite as God Himself and therefore incomprehensible to the finite human mind. With God’s help it can be apprehended by man, but never, in Time or Eternity, fully comprehended. Grace flies in the face of human reason!

    "The mind of the flesh is enmity with God." Because the mind of the flesh is unalterably opposed to God, and because the natural (Greek, "soulish") man cannot receive truths that are only spiritually discerned, Grace lies beyond the pale of human thinking. Man can only think in terms of human merit as a means of approach to God. This is not only true of unsaved people, but also of saved people who think like unsaved people. The fleshly mind cannot conceive of the "baddest" man going to Heaven on Grace alone, nor of the "very best" man missing Heaven without it. All religion, including much of what calls itself "Christianity," insists that God cannot be pleased apart from man’s merit and that He cannot but be pleased by man’s merit. That your "righteousness" and mine was not only ignored but rejected at Calvary comes, quite naturally, as a shock to those who have not begun to think as God thinks through believing Scripture. Calvary flies in the face of human reason because Calvary is Grace, and Grace can only be spiritually discerned.

    God and Paul tell us that the primary reason for the indwelling of the Spirit of God in the believer in this Dispensation of Grace is "that we might know the things freely given (Greek, "graced") to us by God." God indwelt believing Israel on the Day of Pentecost that they might "walk in My statutes, and...keep My judgments and do them." In other words, the Holy Spirit indwelt the believing Jew to make him a successful Law-keeper. The Body of Christ is not under an earthly Law, but under an infinitely superior system of government...Grace. The Holy Spirit indwelt them to enable them, for the first time in their history, to live, divinely energized, under Law. The same Holy Spirit indwells us to enable us to live, divinely energized, under Grace.

    Israel’s Program broke down early in Acts with the Nation’s refusal to rethink her crucifixion of her King and to welcome Him back from exile to reign over her and, through her, over the world. Israel’s Prophetic Program, consequently, is being held in abeyance by God and will not be reinstituted until after the present Mystery (unprophesied) Program for the Body of Christ has concluded with the recall of Christ’s ambassadors by the miracle of the Rapture. Even as Christ ascended to the Father in a glorified, but human body (without a rocket), so shall we. When our purpose for being here as "Citizens of Heaven on loan to Planet Earth" has been fulfilled, there will be no need for us to be "away from Home" and we, the Body, will join our new and final Federal Head "at home," in Heaven.

    Law is a system of conditional blessing. The Nation Israel was promised many earthly blessings if she walked in His statutes and kept His judgments, and many earthly curses if she did not. The Old Testament reveals that Israel experienced both the blessing and cursing of God in her fifteen hundred year history under Law.

    Grace is a system of unconditional blessing. The Body of Christ does not "do" in order to be blessed, nor to avoid cursing. We "do" because we have been blessed; because we have already received our blessings in advance. This is Grace, and man unaided, will never understand it. Our spiritual, "in advance" blessings are set forth to us by the Holy Spirit in the Epistles of God and Paul and are only spiritually discerned.

    No sin can be great enough to undo the Grace of God. Not even a lifetime of sinning could end the complete satisfaction that the Father feels over the substitutionary death of His Son on Calvary. The spiritual believer agrees with the Word of God and shares the Father’s complete satisfaction in the death of His Son. The carnal believer will not; he will agree with his unsaved colleague in intruding the foolishness of human merit into the genius of God’s Grace. He will "water down" the crosswork of Christ, but a watered down cross is no cross at all! Either Christ did everything the sinner needed at Calvary, or He did nothing at all. If Grace were limited it would simply be a more generous form of Law. "Limited Grace" would be non-grace and non-grace is anti-grace. It is the very nature of the Grace of God to be as limitless as the God of Grace Himself.

    What glorifies God more, that He saved someone and then He ended up losing that person because GOD can’t hang on to that person? Or that God saves the ungodly to the UTTERMOST?

    Salvation is NOT Probation, and Probation is never Salvation!

    Thanks for listening...

    2Tim 2:15
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm

     
  20. precept

    precept Member

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    Isn't it strange that Peter said the exact words as you claimed of the "fool's" behaviour when he described the backsliding Gentiles who formerly believed in the gospel that had formerly SAVED! THEM! ETERNALLY!.2 Peter :20-22 " For if after[they were saved] through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ ....IS THAT SAVED ENOUGH FOR YOU?...they are again entangled therein...[doesn't this sound like your example of the "fool" who was saved by the death of the "fireman"-Christ- who saved the "fool"from the "sinful pollutions of the world" but the "fool" after being saved "spit" on the "fireman's grave" when he again became "entangled in the very sinful pollutions he had previously been rescued from? In your description of the "fool", don't you see a direct resemblance in "your fool" and the "fool who thinks he is "eternally saved", thus making any sin he commits become instantly forgiven no matter how deliberate he was in committing said sin and no matter how unrepentant he still is after committing said sins? Don't you see "your fool" the same as the "backsliding Gentile Christians" who like "dogs returned to their own sinful vomit, and like "sows" again wallowed in the mire of sin-True carbon copies, if you will, of the "wallowing in sin of any who thinks because he can't be lost and because "we are all sinners", he has a free license to sin at will! You are right! Only a "fool would join that crowd" that believe this heresy.


    precept
     
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