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Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by chris9178, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. precept

    precept Member

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    Quote:precept
    'the law has been fulfilled in me'.....'you need no more to keep God's laws'....'you are now under Grace and God's laws are now unnecessary'...because now that you believe on me; you can never be lost and never do you need to keep God's laws again ever'...
    Quote



    Can you show me in the Bible where Jesus said these? I want understand the full context of each statement.

    This is the doctrine of those who say "Once saved one cannot be lost".








    Quote: "Dead...."
    My point that I must not have been clear on is that God is a God of Love." For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life". By God's love I have salvation, I keep from being separated from God by loving God with all of my soul, and loving my brother as myself. I won't/can't sit back and proclaim Christ as my Savoir and not repent/worship/pray/praise/show mercy. Freely I received, freely I should give.


    On your above conclusion, I agree.



    precept
     
  2. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    I fell away... no, that's wrong. I walked away. Are you saying that He doesn't accept the prodigal child who has returned?

    I "became" a Christian while in college. Then I turned my back on God. I denied Him, blasphemed Him. I even tried to be an atheist, but as a biologist I could not deny the existance of a Creator ~ go figure :canadian:

    After almost 20 years of denying Christ, I now accept Him as my Savior. I choose to believe I am forgiven for the falling away and even for crucifying the Son of God all over again. Not to mention the earthly sins I did, and continue to do, as well. Grace is truly amazing ~ that someone like me can be saved.
     
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  3. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Maybe you didn't completely fall away from Jesus?

    BTW, Welcome to our little slice of heaven, and I am GLAD you found your way back to Jesus. I did the very same thing, mon ami. I would like to ask which college you were converted at. Was it Uof F???
     
  4. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    Nope ~ It was PLU.
    I know now how insincere my "faith" was back then. It's for real this time around. I hope.
     
  5. precept

    precept Member

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    "StupidL..."...you need to put Galatians chapter 1 in context. Peter, Abraham, Jacob, Paul, and Judas Iscariot all "fell away". Jesus said to Paul who had served him sincerely as a Pharisee......"I am Jesus whom you are persecuting". He only had to "look" at Peter. He told Judas that "he was the one" as Judas dipped into the bowl to pick up bread the same time as Jesus did. Abraham lied not once but twice about Sarah, his wife being his sister.....Jacob lied about his true identity and paid in kind for his sins when his own uncle Laban forced him to work fourteen years for the woman he loved, while at the same time deceiving Jacob into marrying another woman, his other daughter.

    All of the above-mentioned transgressors against God; served Him fervently prior to their trangressions; yet they all, ecxept for Judas, confessed their sins and were forgiven and fully reinstated; and will be around the great white Throne praising the Saviour who died on their behalf; and for which sins they were forgiven being forever in the debt of their Saviour, and being forever sorry for the commissions of these sins agaist their God Benefactor Lord God.

    Galatians chapter 1 speaks to those who like Judas, once tasted of the Honey of our Saviour's salvation; but having so tasted, conciously reject the pure hiney of His gift of salvation. Like all the aforementioned transgressors, the door of forgiveness is opening over and over again; even more than "seventy times seven". But for those who refuse to enter, to them it is impossible; because they enjoy crucifying again the Son of God by their returning to the "pleasures of sin".

    There are those of Christianity today who continue to enjoy the "pleasures of sin" while still proclaiming themselves "Saved". These are they who claim as their own the maxim "once they confess their belief that Jesus came to save sinners" they are then "Saved forever"....and there are also those who hide behind the cloak of Christianity, while preying on the gullible Christians who believe in their mockery of sincerety. These engage in the sins of adultery, fornication, homosexuality, pedophilia, and many other sins; they ask for forgiveness as a doctrine; but never ever feeling any guilt for sinning against God. The former and the latter cannot be restored to a full fellowship with the Lord and Saviour....because they both "crucify afresh the Son of God whenever they sin"....and are no better than the wicked who sin wantonly against our God and Saviour.

    The difference between those 'Christians" who sin and are forgiven as against those "Christians" who sin and are not forgiven is; the Christians who sin and are forgiven are those who hate the act of their sins. This hatred for sin is the same hatred that God has for sin....the same hatred that made Him want to anhilate sin from His universe forever....but the cost of which caused Very God to die just to appease His deadly hatred for sin. Those Christians who like him hate to sin; rush to Him for forgiveness whenever they sin;thus showing how sincerely sorry they are for again sinning against their Benefactor, Saviour, Lord God.
    Those Christians who "believed that he came to die for the sins of sinners";believe also that now that they can sin whenever they so choose; because; they theorize that since the debt for sin has already been paid; and since by proxy they have agreed to its being paid on their behalf by accepting the explanation as given in scripture...then it matters not anymore how much they sin, seeing the debt for sin has already been eternally paid. These "Christians" cannot be forgiven, seeing they are not sorry for the sins committed; nor do they hate the act of sinning, and hence they would seek no forgiveness whenever they would sin against God. This then makes it impossible for them to renew the true walk of faith;"seeing that they sin[crucify the Son of God afresh]while still believing a falsehood about how and why our Father forgives our sins.

    "Sin is the transgression of God's law"...1 John 3:4 It is preposterous for "Christians" to believe and teach....that "God died so that we can be free to commit sins without our dying to pay for our own sins. In other words these false Christians believe He died in our place so that we can be free to commit sins without having ourselves to pay the eternal price-Eternal death! Then to "add insult to injury"....These false Christians also teach that on the day of His return they will be marching up to receive rewards for their having demonstrated that they did believe that He died for the sins of humanity; and that they demonstrsted this fact by worshipping Him faithfully Sunday after Sunday.

    Why would Very God die to anhilate the sin He hated; and then reward sinners for sinning against Him because they believed a falsehood?


    precept
     
  6. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    Thank you precept. That context reinforces what I said before ~ I walked out that door to live the life I wanted. There are many reasons, but one of them was the extreme hypocrisy I was seeing in "Christians" and had no desire to be associated with that. I still see it, but know that I don't have to be like that. I'm not perfect by any stretch, but I truly want to do right by God.
     
  7. Tzeitel

    Tzeitel Member

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    Trueblood, I agree with you - do you mean by "renewing your mind to righteousness" that a believer must continually understand that he really DOES have his salvation despite his doubts? I think I understand the way you put it. Here's another verse that's good Hebrews 7:25 "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them".
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Well Snow,

    If your faith was "insincere", then you probably couldn't fall away from a relationship with a Saviour that you never really had. I don't pretend to understand ALL that is written about falling away, but I am convinced that it is possible.
     
  9. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Actually "to be saved" doesn't mean you're going to heaven. It means you will be exempt from God's judgement. You'll probably end up on the new earth. Not in the New Jerusalem. Nobody in the New Jerusalem will say things like "I don't need confidence in Christ", "I don't need charity", "I don't need love" as you have spoken. I'll come remind you of these things when I teleport from New Jerusalem to the new earth and accept your gifts.
     
  10. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    I would agree with you as well. If a person is born again then the truth is in him spiritually. Note it's in him spiritually, not in his mind yet. That believer can say that he knows God and all that, and does not observe the commandment to walk in the light, the truth of The Word is not in that believer's mind. The truth remains in the believer's spiritual being, but that person has not put on the truth in his mind. He's very much born again he's just not living according to His will. We do the keeping of His Word, and in the keeping of it the love of God is perfected in us. This love of God, comes with the spiritual birth but is outwardly manifested when one walks in the light. Thus 1) having the spirit from God in us plus 2) walking in His love makes it possible the perfect fellowship. The born again believer can because of freedom of will choose to live according to this world; but, to be in fellowship a believer must choose to renew his mind and act accordingly to the Word. Word.
     
  11. Tzeitel

    Tzeitel Member

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    hence the "fruits of the spirit."
     
  12. Stormygale

    Stormygale Member

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    This is a belief held by many baptist today, among other religions. The word of God tells that a saved man who backslides is like a dog going back to his vomit. It also states that when a man turns from God, he becomes seven times worse. SO, is he seven times worse, yet, still saved? If Charles Manson, or worse, Hitler, had been saved in their earlier days, and had actually accepted Christ in their live, then committed their offenses against humanity, would they still have been saved in the end. Once saved always saved in an excuse for one who backslides to claim he is saved, and have his cake and eat it too. But then, I am not God, and who am I to weild the axe.
     
  13. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Looking forward to it......... :areyoucra
     
  14. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Agreed. Once saved or "born-again", always saved, no exceptions. Born-again means that eternal life is in us spiritually. But to walk in fellowship one must renew their minds accordinly to the right-dividing of the Word. Basicly knowing the true Words of God, putting it in ones mind and manifesting it in action. Being saved gives one sonship; the renewed mind gives one perfect fellowship with the Father. It's very possible that at an early age a person can become born-again gaining sonship with the Father. Doesn't mean he's automaticly going to walk in perfect fellowship. And he still has the freedom of will to make his own choices on how he will walk. However, no matter what that person does he'll remain spirtually saved and a member of the house-hold of God. However, he/she can not manifest the love and powers of God without walking in the light.
     
  15. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    Guess what boys and girls, if "Onced Saved Always Saved" is true, those of us who teach this doctrine is false to the core, can't lose our souls, can we??????????

    Prosecutor
     
  16. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Not sure what you are talking about. Everyone loses their soul upon their last breath of life, unless of course you(a believer) happen to be alive at the time of the Rapture. The fact is there is no scripture that says one can become unborn. That is what you're saying right? A born again son of God can lose their sonship? Nothing in scripture backs this up.
     
  17. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Without Christian "Fruits" you are not saved.

    Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

    You can think you are, and say you are, but without letting Jesus produce the fruits of righteousness within you, then he will say PLAINLY `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

    The works don't save you... but they give evidence that you ARE saved.

    James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

    Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. 37 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay. 38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.
     
  18. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    true blood, I have a lesson called "The Rupture of the Rapture". As far as your concept of "once a child always a child" such has not been proven nor can be. You "assume" that sonship is eternal.
    Your problem is that you attempt to make earthly relationships and spiritual relationships equal. While there are things about both which are alike there are also things different.
    Prosecutor
     
  19. Tzeitel

    Tzeitel Member

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    not sure what you just said prosecutor, but I stand firm that a person is saved forever once he accepts Jesus Christ into his heart. The Lord says that NO MAN can take a saved person out of his hand. I don't really know how any one can twist that to fit their concept of a lost salvation.
     
  20. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Can I Lose My Salvation?

    This is a huge topic to discuss, so I'm going to try to set it straight. I have written a lot here, but I probably still haven't given this subject enough justice. Oh well, here goes!

    Eternal Security! Is it a doctrine of demons? Or is it one of the most precious truths in all of the Word of God? What does the Bible say? Just remember real quick, if we're going to decide on issues like this, then the Bible must be our soul judge. There's good Christians on both sides of this issue. Someone has to be wrong, and someone has to be right. Being good, sweet, or nice isn't the bottom line here because good, sweet, or nice people are divided on many issues. God must speak if we are to have any authority on this issue and we must decide this from the scriptures.


    Let's start by taking a look at I Corinthians 15:
    1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
    1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    This is a great passage of assurance. Some people point to the second verse and say "if you don't keep in memory what Paul preached then you could believe in vain, that you could be lost. That's careless exegesis because Paul explains in the same chapter down at verse 17 what he means by believing in vain:

    1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins

    and in the 20th verse he goes on saying...

    1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.

    The only way then that the Corinthians could have believed in vain would have been if Paul's preaching was in vain, if Christ really didn't rise, if he was telling a fairy tale. As long as Christ did rise from the dead, then the Corinthians faith could not be vain. We need to understand that in this passage he is not teaching that you could fall, lose your salvation, or believe in vain. He goes onto say:

    1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    So what saved the Corinthians? Were they saved because they asked Jesus into their heart? No, this is nowhere in scripture. We find in Revelation 3:20:

    Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    And this has been taken to mean a salvation verse, but it isn't if we read it in its context. First of all, it concerns a still future church, a church that will exist in the day of the Lord. Secondly it has nothing to do with salvation. Hell will be filled with people that have asked Jesus into their heart. Nowhere are we told in scripture that salvation comes by asking Christ into our heart. As a matter a fact "heart" isn't even mentioned in Rev. 3:20. We are not told that men are saved by asking Christ into their heart, or turning their life over to God, or dedicating, or committing their life to Christ or anything that well meaning evangelists, priests, Sunday school teachers, Christian workers or pastors are telling people today. Men in scripture in this dispensation are saved by believing the one saving message for this age and that is that Christ died for our sins. We now have to do the only thing that we can do without doing anything, and that is trust implicitly in what another has done. We need to trust in the death of Christ for us on the cross of Calvary where He died as our substitute, where He died onto our sinful Adamic nature, where He died for everyone of our personal sins past present and future small and great, the ones you like to brag about to your friends, and the one's you wouldn't want your mother to know about, where He died for that one original sin of Adam's which brought condemnation and death to the human race according to Romans. When we believe that and nothing else, when we don't add anything to that, when we believe simply in the death of Christ, the cross work of Christ for us, then instantly we are saved. This is pure grace.

    So we need to understand first of all how men are saved. It was sufficient at one time to believe the message:

    Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    The Israeli who believed, offered animal sacrifice as he recognized that he broke the law. His righteousness couldn't come through law keeping so he offered animal sacrifices. Then when the messiah was present on earth He said:

    John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    So it became necessary once Christ was being presented by John the Baptist, and by the 12, and by Himself and by others, then it became necessary to believe the additional message, that this was the promised messiah. Those who were on God's wavelength didn't have any trouble believing it.

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Said Christ. Those who weren't on God's wavelength had the greatest difficulty believing it, as a matter of fact totally rejected it. But it became necessary to believe the messianic claims of Christ.

    Now in this era the holy spirit claims in Ephesians Chapter 3, is the dispensation of grace,

    Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

    It is necessary to believe this message that the Corinthians were saved by believing that Christ died for their sins and rose from the dead. So when you and I believe that, Christ enters your heart and life, bidden or unbidden. That's the first thing we need to understand. Then we need to ask, salvation is from what? What are we saved from?

    Well there are 36 values of the cross. 36 things that became true of us the minute we believed in Christ's work on the cross for us. There are 36 things that Christ died to buy for you and for me on the cross of Calvary. Everyone of them is a work of God for man and not one of them is a work of man for God. So all of them wrought in grace are therefore eternal and permanent and irrevocable.

    To go through of few of them, Christ has reconciled you to the Father through His cross work. He redeemed you, His death satisfied the integrity and the righteousness and the holiness of God for us. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world. Then about regeneration, according to scripture when I was saved, I was born again. I was quickened and given life even though I was formerly dead in my offences and sins.
     
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