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Christian - Once Saved Always Saved?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by chris9178, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    RMarchy... start another thread with this. This is not about Paul... it's about once saved always saved.
     
  2. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    yah sorry, about that. Just needed to get that in the open when i read precept's response of the kingdom...
     
  3. precept

    precept Member

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    A Christian who is SAVED ETERTNALLY DOES NOT LIE!.

    Go to any bookstore and purchase an elementary school dictionary. If you find one that defines "repent" as "re-think"....call in the educators and shut the bookstore down...you would have doing the elementary school kids a favor, ito close a place diseminating ignorance.


    precept
     
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  4. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

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    Wow, a ton of reading and some very good comments here! Ye shall all inheritith of my frubalness.

    I am never quite sure of this myself. I'd like to believe that once saved always saved applies because in some cases people went through a long and painful death and were anything but "loving" and patient during the illness, but they were still believers, just going through a really rough time and not fairing out too well.

    But in order to believe this you would have to ignore a lot of scripture about good works, possibly even entire chapters of the new testament and most of the old testament as well.

    I'm not sure it really matters except to say that being saved certainly doesn't give you a license to go out and sin as much as you can just because you're "forgiven". It also isn't any excuse not to do good works. I find I fit in much better with people who don't buy the OSAS notion, because they are out there actually doing good in the world instead of sitting on thier butts saying how great God is but not doing anything for him.
     
  5. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    The ark which was built by Noah according to divine directions, in which he and his house, together with representatives from the lower creation, found shelter from the storm of God’s wrath, is one of the clearest and most comprehensive types of the believer’s salvation in Christ which is to be found in all the Scriptures. People who don’t believe in eternal security, don’t even study the simple shadows of the old testament.

    1. The ark was a Divine provision.Genesis 6:13, 14—"And God said unto Noah, the end of all flesh is come before Me…make thee an ark." Before the flood came and before the ark was made, a means of escape for His own people existed in the mind of God. Noah was commanded to construct the ark before a drop of rain had fallen. So, too, the Saviourship of Christ was no afterthought of God when sin had come in and blighted His creation; from all eternity He had purposed to redeem a people unto Himself, and in consequence, Christ, in the counsels of the Godhead, was "a lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8). The ark was God’s provision for Noah as Christ is God’s provision for sinners.

    2. Observe now that God revealed to Noah His own designs and ordered him to build a place of refuge into which he could flee from the impending storm of judgment. The ark was no invention of Noah’s; had not God revealed His thoughts to him, he would have perished along with his fellow creatures. In like manner, God has to reveal by His Spirit His thoughts of mercy and grace toward us; otherwise, in our blindness and ignorance we should be eternally lost. "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 4:6).

    3. Next, note that Noah was commanded to make an ark of gopher-wood (Gen. 6:14). The material out of which the ark was built teaches an important lesson. The ark was made of wood.The typical truth which this fact is designed to teach us lies not on the surface, yet is one that is brought before us again and again both in the Word and in Nature; the truth, that life comes out of death, that life can be secured only by sacrifice. Before the ark could be made, trees must be cut down.That which secured the life of Noah and his house was obtained by the death of the trees. We have a hint here, too, of our Lord’s humanity.The trees from which the wood of the ark was taken were a thing of the earth, reminding us of Isaiah’s description of Christ—"a root out of a dry ground" (Isa. 53:2). So Christ, who was the eternal Son of God must become the Son of man—part of that which, originally, was made out of the dust of the earth—and as such be cut down, or, in the language of prophecy, be "cut off" (Daniel 9:26), before a refuge could be provided for us.

    4. The ark was a refuge from Divine judgment.There are three arks mentioned in Scripture and each of them was a shelter and place of safety. The ark of Noah secured those within it from the outpoured wrath of God. The ark of bulrushes (Ex. 2:3) protected the young child Moses from the murderous designs of Pharaoh, who was a type of Satan. The ark of the covenant sheltered the two tables of stone on which were inscribed the holy law of God. Each ark speaks of Christ, and putting the three together, we learn that the believer is sheltered from God’s wrath, Satan’s assaults and the condemnation of the law—the only three things in all the universe which can threaten or harm us. The ark of Noah was a place of safety. It was provided by God when death threatened all.It was the only place of deliverance from the wrath to come, and as such it speaks of our Lord Jesus Christ, the only Savior of lost sinners—"Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

    5. Into this ark man was invited to come.He was invited by God Himself, "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark" (Gen. 7:1). In order for God to say that, where must God be; in the ark. This is the first time the word "come"is found in the Scriptures, and it recurs over five hundred times in the remainder of the Bible. Observe that the Lord does not say "Go into the ark," but "Come." "Go" would have been a command, "Come" was a gracious invitation; "Go"would have implied that the Lord was bidding Noah depart from Him, "Come" intimated that in the ark the Lord would be present with him. Is it not the same thought as we have in the Gospel—"Come unto Me and I will give you rest!" (Another incredible type to study is Noah himself as a type of Christ because his name literally means “rest” or “comfort”, but that’s a whole other wonderful rabbit hole to travel down). Observe further that the invitation was a personal one—"Come thou";God always addresses Himself to the heart and conscience of the individual. Yet, the invitation went further—"Come thou and all thy house into the ark," and again we find a parallel in the Gospel of grace in our day: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:31). The battle for the unbeliever is never the intellect, or lack of proof, but of the will.

    6. The ark was a place of absolute security.This truth is seen from several particulars. First, the ark itself was pitched "within and without with pitch" (Gen. 6:14), hence it would be thoroughly watertight, and as such, a perfect shelter. No matter how hard it rained or how high the waters rose, all inside the ark were secure. The ark was in this respect also, a type of our salvation in Christ. Speaking to the saints, the apostle said, "Your life is hid (like Noah in the ark) with Christ in God" (Col. 3:3). In the next place, we read concerning Noah after he had entered the ark, "And the Lord shut him in"(Gen. 7:16). What a blessed word is this! Noah did not have to take care of himself; having entered the ark, God was then responsible for his preservation. So it is with those who have fled to Christ for refuge, they are "kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Pet. 1:5). Finally, the security of all in the ark is seen in the issuing of them forth one year later on to the destruction-swept earth—"And Noah went forth, and his sons and his wife and his sons’ wives with him: every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark" (Gen. 8:18, 19). All who had entered that ark had been preserved, none had perished by the flood, and none had died a natural death, so perfect is the type. How this reminds us of our Lord’s words, "Ofthem which thou gavest Me have I lost none"(John 18:9).

    7. What has often been pointed out by others, that the ark had only one door to it. There was not one entrance for Noah and his family, another for the animals, and yet another for the birds. One door was all it had. The same was true later of the tabernacle; it, too, had but a single entrance. The spiritual application is apparent. There is only one way of escape from eternal death. There is only one way of deliverance from the wrath to come. There is only one Savior from the Lake of Fire, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ—"I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me"(John 14:6). The language of our type is directly employed by Christ in John 10:9, where we hear Him say, "I am the door."It is also worthy of attention to note that Noah was ordered by God to set the door "in the side"of the ark (Gen. 6:16). Surely this pointed forward to the piercing of our Lord’s "side" (John 19:34) which was the intimation that the way to the heart of God is now open to guilty and ruined sinners.

    8. The ark had three stories in it, "with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it" (Gen. 6:16). Why are we told this? What difference does it make to God’s saints living four thousand years afterwards how many stories the ark had, whether it had one or a dozen? Every devout student of the Word has learned that everything in the Holy Scriptures has some significance and spiritual value. Necessarily so, for every word of God is pure. When the Holy Spirit "moved" Moses to write the book of Genesis, He knew that a book was being written which should be read by the Lord’s people thousands of years later, therefore, what He caused to be written must have in every instance, something more than a merely local application. "Whatsoever was written aforetime was written for our learning." What then are we to "learn" from the fact that in the ark there were three stories, no less and no more?
     
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  6. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    We have already seen that the ark itself unmistakably foreshadowed the Lord Jesus. Passing through the waters of judgment, being itself submerged by them; grounding on the seventeenth day of the month—the day of our Lord’s Resurrection; and affording a shelter to all who were within it, the ark was a very clear type of Christ. Therefore the inside of the ark must speak to us of what we have in Christ.Is it not clear then that the ark divided into three stories more than hints at our threefold salvation in Christ?The salvation which we have in Christ is a threefold one, and that in a double sense. It is a salvation which embraces each part of our threefold constitution, making provision for the redemption of our spirit, and soul, and body (1 Thess. 5:23); and further, our salvation is a three tense salvation. Phase 1, We have been saved from the penalty of sin (God’s justice has been satisfied in His Son who died our death. You no longer have to answer for sin. You are dead to sin. You have been crucified in the person of Christ. Your debt has been paid. Phase 2, you are being saved from the power of sin (the Bible calls it confirmation, not in the Roman Catholic sense, but as spiritual life. Just like the motto of Phase 1 of salvation is “Whosoever will, may come!” which is open to all, but chosen by few, the motto of phase 2 confirmation is “whosoever will, may triumph!” All are saved in phase 2, all are children of God, but some will reach spiritual maturity and others don’t. Others stay in carnality, other’s progress in their spiritual life. But don’t confuse this with your standing and your state of salvation. Your standing in God doesn’t depend on you at all, it depends on Christ and what he did for you, it’s your position from your moment of salvation. Your state or your calling in time is that you be more conformed or in your state or experience to what you already possess (your salvation) in your standing or inheritance. Your state is dependent on your will. Gal.5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. You see, you have a choice. You can please God, please the spirit by walking in the spirit, or you can grieve the spirit. Unbelievers don’t grieve the spirit, only believers can. Gal. 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. So is it possible to live in the spirit and not walk in the spirit; YES! It’s called carnality. There’s that heresy going around, Lordship salvation that claims that professing Christians who are living sinful lives aren’t truly Christians, and they base this on their behavior or whatever. That is anti scriptural. Phase 2 in salvation is progressive in that the believer should move from carnality to maturity. It’s based on our decisions, the decisions we make determine the life we lead. It’s based on submitting our wills to the Father’s. See we are sanctified (saint-ifed, set apart) in our position immediately. That’s why people get confused. They read scripture that talks about our sanctification being complete already, then they read that we are being sanctified, then they read that they will be sanctified in eternity. Once you believe, you are a saint! I don’t need to express 3 miracles, die, and have an earthly pope make me a saint. God made me a saint when I trusted in what his Son has done. Paul wrote the saints in Philippi. THEY WERE ALL SAINTS and they were all alive. No pope made them saints. No man can make somebody a saint. So what is sanctification in time speaking of. Well in salvation we HAVE BEEN SAVED (past tense) from the penalty in sin. In conformation we are BEING SAVED from the power of sin. The Holy Spirit and the spiritual gifts we are given upon our spiritual birth aid us in the warfare against the three-fold conflict, the world, the flesh, and the devil. The believer is dead to sin judicially but it is very alive in experience in time. We have the sin nature, we live among people (EVERYONE) with sin natures, and we live in a sin cursed world under the dominion of the prince of the power of the air. Sin is very much real in the believer’s experience, but not in our position in Christ. Phase 3, consummation, we shall yet be saved from the presence of sin. It is ultimate completion in the future. It is the believer’s destiny realized. 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. NOW is present tense, the believer doesn’t have to wait to see if he/she will be a son of God. He also says Beloved, he can only say that to a believer. 2 Cor. 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Glory 1 is our salvation, our new spiritual birth and glory 2 is our future glory, our completion in the eternal state. And that is happening to the believer NOW!!! See also Philippians 3:21. We are saved from the penalty in the past, at our spiritual birth when we were saved. We are saved from the power of sin in time, and saved from the presence of sin in the eternal state where we will have no sin nature. It has been crucified with Christ judicially, it will be permanently thrown into the lake of fire.

    9. Observe that the ark was furnished with a window and this was placed "above"—"A window shalt thou make to the ark and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above"(Gen. 6:16). The spiritual application is patent. Noah and his companions were not to be looking down on the scene of destruction beneath and around them, but up toward the living God. The same lesson was taught to Jehovah’s people in the Wilderness. The pillar of cloud to guide them by day and the pillar of fire to protect them by night was provided not only for their guidance, but was furnished for their instruction as well. Israel must look up to the great Jehovah and not be occupied with the difficulties and dangers of the wilderness. So, we, called upon to walk by faith, are to journey with our eyes turned heavenward. Our affection must be set upon" things above,not on things on the earth" (Col. 3:2).

    10. The ark was furnished with "rooms"or "nests"—"Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms (margin "nests") shalt thou make in the ark" (Gen. 6:14). In every other passage in the Old Testament where the Hebrew word "gen" occurs, it is translated "nest."We hesitate to press the spiritual signification here; yet, we have seen that the ark is such a striking and comprehensive type of our salvation in Christ we must believe that this detail in the picture has some meaning, whether we are able to discern it or no. The thought which is suggested to us is, that in Christ we have something more than a refuge, we have a resting place;we are like birds in their nests, the objects of Another’s loving care. Oh, is it that the "nests" in the ark look forward to the "many mansions" in the Father’s House? which our Lord has gone to prepare for us. It is rather curious that there is some uncertainty about the precise meaning of the Greek word here translated "mansions.’’ Weymouth renders it, "InMy Father’s house are many resting places!"

    11. In connection with the ark the great truth of Atonement is typically presented. This comes out in several particulars: "Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch" (Gen. 6:14). The Hebrew word here is not the common one for "pitch" which is "zetteth," but is "kapher," which is translated seventy times in the Old Testament "to make atonement." The simple meaning of "kapher" is "to cover"and nowhere else is it rendered "pitch." Atonement was made by the blood which provided a covering for sin. Our readers being familiar with this thought, there is no need for us to develop it. God is holy, and as such He is "of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity" (Habakkuk 1:13), hence sin must be covered—coveredby blood. It is therefore remarkable that this word "kapher" should be employed (for the first time in Scripture) in connection with the ark, as though to teach us that a shelter from God’s wrath can be found only beneath the atoning blood! Again we notice that the storm fell upon the ark which provided shelter for Noah and those that were with him. So, too, the clouds of Divine judgment burst upon our adorable Redeemer as He suffered in our stead: "All Thy waves and thy billows are gone over Me" (Ps. 42:7) was His cry; and may not His words here be language pointing back to the very type we are now considering?
     
  7. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    12. The typical teaching of the ark reaches beyond the truth of atonement to resurrection itself. The day the ark rested on the mountains of Ararat is the same day which the Lord rose from the dead. It rested "on the seventeenth day of the seventh month." But by the commandment of the Lord, given at the time of the institution of the feast of the Passover, the seventh month was changed into the first month. Then three days after the Passover, which was on the fourteenth day of the month, the Lord, having passed quite through the waters of judgment, stood in resurrection in the midst of His disciples, saying, "Peace be unto you." They, as well as Himself, had reached the haven of everlasting rest." But not only does our type prefigure our Lord’s resurrection from the dead, it also suggests the truth of His ascension,for we read "And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month upon the mountains of Ararat"(Gen. 8:4). The final resting place of the ark was upon the mountain top, speaking of the place "on high" where our Savior is now seated at the right hand of God. Study the Book of Hebrews on that verse, like Romans is the handbook of salvation, Hebrews in the handbook of eternal security.

    The Bible is no mere "cunningly devised fable," but it is indeed the inspired Word of the living God.

    Study the different types, or shadows in the Old Testament. The all foreshadow Christ, and the book of Hebrews will unlock most of those shadows.
     
  8. precept

    precept Member

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    In the above you say that the 'salvation of humanity was "not an after thought": that Jesus was "a lamb slain from the foundation of the world". If you are in complete understanding of your own surmiseings; then you are also saying that at the time when God created the earth["at the foundations of the world"] Jesus was already prepared to be slain as a "lamb sacrifice".

    But you now say something quoite different below:

    QUOTE]2. Observe now that God revealed to Noah His own designs and ordered him to build a place of refuge into which he could flee from the impending storm of judgment. The ark was no invention of Noah’s; had not God revealed His thoughts to him, HE WOULD HAVE PERISHED WITH HIS FELLOW CREATURES; IN LIKE MANNER."[/QUOTE]

    Since God had already prepared Jesus as a sacrifice before he even created man;["at the foundations of the world"] And since God is all knowing; who would be in the world to sin if all humans, including Noah and his family were all killed by God? If God's plans did not include keeping humans alive SO THAT HE HAS JUSTIFICATION IN OFFERING HIS SON AS A SACRIFICE then you are right in your unblibical surmiseing. But since God's plans did state that His Son would be a sacrifice for the sins of humanity; and that; even before creating the world; than his plans also automatically included keeping humans alive in order to sucessfully fulfill His plan.

    In other words whether Noah and his family wanted to or not; and whether it was Noah and His family or some other human or humans; yet some of humanity in both sexes would have had to be kept alive for God's plans to succeed. Thus the godly as determined by God would have been saved in the Ark, no matter what! Humans had to be around or Christ's coming to earth would have had no meaning!

    So no! THIS IS FALSE THEOLOGYRmarchy"had not God revealed His thoughts to him, HE WOULD HAVE PERISHED WITH HIS FELLOW CREATURES; IN LIKE MANNER."


    If the foundation is condemned..the house built on the condemned foundation is condemned as well.


    precept
     
  9. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Read what i said...

    Observe now that God revealed to Noah His own designs and ordered him to build a place of refuge into which he could flee from the impending storm of judgment. The ark was no invention of Noah’s; had not God revealed His thoughts to him, he would have perished along with his fellow creatures. In like manner, God has to reveal by His Spirit His thoughts of mercy and grace toward us; otherwise, in our blindness and ignorance we should be eternally lost.

    Of course the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, and of course humans had to be around. i'm just comparing the revealed Word of God to Noah how He reveals his Word to us in the Bible. If we theorectically didn't have a Bible around, we wouldn't know anything about our Lord and Savior. But of course that wouldn't happen to us, for God has revealed His will to us in his Word!
     
  10. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    Precept, the Bible wasn't written in English. The New Testament was written in coine Greek "Alexander's Common Greek."

    REPENT: First of all let’s understand what it does not mean so that we can grasp the true meaning.
    1. It does not mean to turn away from sin.
    2. It does not mean to quit sinning.
    3. It does not mean to feel sorry for sin.
    4. It does not mean to change your sinful ways before you can be saved.
    5. It does not imply salvation.
    6. It is not the means of forgiveness of sin.
    7. It is not salvation nor does it imply that we should live a sinless life.
    8. It does not imply sin.


    After Alexander had conquered the known world around 300 BC he had a problem communicating with the many Greeks under his rule. Rather than learn all of the different types of Greek himself Alexander invented a Greek language called “coine” or common Greek. It was common in that all of the Greek speaking world would be required to learn it in order to resolve the communication problem.

    This new Greek language was very precise and mathematical in its precision. Every word had a four fold navigational fix. A word could have only one meaning. It could have several applications but only one interpretation. In English, words can have several meanings but not in the coine Greek. It was one word, one meaning. In other words, there was no doubt about what was being said in this language. Eventually, this language became the dominant language of the New Testament.


    If you have looked up “repent” in your handy Bible dictionary you will likely discover that it gives a definition of everything that I said repent is not. Why is this? Dictionaries get their definitions of words from its common usage. Religions and denominations have distorted the gospel for many years and therefore the word repent as well. In other words the writers of a dictionary get the meaning from different religious organizations and give several different meanings of the word in their publication without regards to the original language that it was translated from. Compound words were very common in the coine Greek.

    In the New Testament there are two different Greek words which have been translated repent. The word repent is an English word. It is an obsolete old English word and means nothing to us today. It was not even used in the Bible until the King James Bible came along in 1611. It was translated from the compound Greek words Metanoeo and Metamellamai. These two words have completely different meanings and remember in the coine Greek a word can have only one meaning so how can anyone give one definition or numerous definitions to the word repent? There must be two and only two definitions for repent.

    1. Metanoeo. This is a compound word. “Meta” means change “noeo” means thinking. This word is derived from “nous” which means mind. So, metanoeo means to “change your mind”

    2. Metamellamai. This is also a compound word. “Meta” means change
    “mellamai” means emotions. It means to have a “change of emotions”.

    Some brilliant mind somewhere along the way added “of sin” to repent and came up with the moronic phrase “repent of your sins” and someone else added “and be saved” and came up with “repent of your sins and be saved.” This is a false gospel because it leaves out two things. Faith and Jesus Christ. People who use the phrase “repent of your sins as a condition preceding salvation or as forgiveness of sin are either ignorant or are intentionally teaching a false gospel. Anywhere metanoeo is translated repent you can substitute “change your mind” and the verse will make sense. If you are thinking “of sins” after you see repent the whole gospel message shifts from accepting the free gift of God to something you have to do as a condition of salvation.

    Of course no one can turn away from sin completely. You can minimize sin in your life and you should but to turn away from sin in total is impossible. The Apostle Paul tells us:

    “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lust thereof” (Romans 6:12) Paul is not telling us here that we must quit sinning completely; he is saying that we should not let it rule our lives.

    “If we say that we (Christians) have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8) John here was speaking to Christians and included himself as having sin.

    In the Bible there are verses which do say to repent or change your mind about sin but in every case this is speaking to Christians who are sinning. It is simply saying to us to quit letting sin rule our lives and turn our attention back to the things of God and to worship him.

    In 2 Corinthians 7 the word metanoeo is used in verse 9 and 10. Read verse 10 carefully. "For Godly sorrow WORKETH repentance (metanoeo a change of mind) to salvation"...

    Notice that "Godly sorrow" is not repentance but rather it works to repentance. In other words a person can become sorrowful of his sinful ways and then repent (change his mind about Christ.) Jesus Christ is always the object of salvation not turning away, refraining, quitting or whatever of sin. In Mark 1:15 Jesus said speaking to unbelievers in Galilee "Repent (metanoeo change your mind) and believe the Gospel" (Sorry Precept, i misquoted you earlier, i changed that part). It tells us right here what we are to change our mind about. The Gospel, not our sins. He was speaking to unbelievers who did not believe the gospel. We are condemned because of unbelief not because of our sins:

    John 3:18 “He that believeth on him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already BECAUSE he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    Since we are condemned because of unbelief does it not follow that we should turn from our unbelieving mind and not our sins? We are not condemned because of sin. Sins are forgiven already. Sin is not the issue! "REPENTING" (Changing your mind) to trust in the gospel of the grace of God alone for you to be saved and NOTHING ELSE, not even religion of any sort or denomination or of any of your own works, is the issue. How do you do that? It's marvolously simple yet infinitely profound... When you say in the privacy of your own mind, you don't even have to pray... but the moment you say in the privacy of your own mind, Father i am trusting in what your Son has accomplished for me on that cross. I realize that He came to Earth as Your lamb, the lamb of God, an unblemished offering, to take away my sins. I know He has died my death and paid my penalty and I am TRUSTING IN HIS BLOOD, for my salvation.
    The moment we believe that, we are transformed from a child of disobedience to a son of God, and you HAVE salvation, it's ours to keep for eternity, and no one and nothing can take it away from you. Not even God.
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Guys... you are WAY off topic.

    Please discuss Moses VS Salvation elsewhere!

    This is about "Once Saved, Always Saved"
     
  12. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    In a way it's very much on topic and confirms "OSAS" with richer meaning imo that traces back to times of old especially for those interested in biblical studies.
     
  13. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    precept, sorry I have not be able to resspon to your "intelligent" comment about babies being born sinners. Let's go with your logic of these "totally corrupt little sinners." Jesus said to his disciples,"Truly I say unto you, unless you turn and become like 'totally corrupt little sinners', you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3) Again, "Let the 'totally corrupt little sinners' come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belong the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 19:14) If this does not show the absurdity of your position, nothing else will. One other point. If I get may "sinful nature" originally from Adam, where did he get his sinful nature from? I'll let those who read this thread determine who here is the real "fool".
    Prosecutor
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    No need to flame each other. It only detracts from what you are saying and polarizes the discussion. Let's practice love instead:

    I Corinthians 8:1 Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know.

    Peter has answered any questions I might have had about this:

    II Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

    If he says they are "worse off", then I believe him! They were lost before, and so now they are "worse off". They must be REALLY lost then.

    Then there is what Paul had to say about it:

    Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

    You know that Paul guy, doesn't EVER seem to mince his words, does he?
     
  15. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    I will make it a mod post warning
    This forum and all it's threads are subject to be checked by moderators for compliance with Religious Forum rules http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/faq.php?
     
  16. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin [in the spirit]; for God's seed [Christ] remaineth in him [the man]: and he cannot sin [in that of which he is born, the seed of God, Christ in him], because he is born of God. So bascily in this seed of which a man or woman is born again, he/she cannot sin. It is a perfect spiritual seed.
     
  17. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    true blood, your comments on I John 3:9 is not even close. The same writer said, "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us" (I John 1:8) What you advocating is nothing more than a form of the old gnostic concept that man can sin all he wants because his spirit cannot be corrupted once he had been converted. The verb tenses are key in these passages. The idea is when converted we no longer live to sin, though we do sin on occasions. To say this passage teaches that one born of God can never so sin as to be lost eternally is not in harmony with the immediate context or the remote context.

    Prosecutor
     
  18. Economist

    Economist Member

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    To presume on God's mercy is a sin against the Holy Spirit. Sin is the act of casting God out of your life. It doesn't matter if you believe in him or not, if you choose to live without Him on Earth, you will live without him in the next life. If you honestly try your best to do right by him on Earth, then he will welcome you into his kingdom.
     
  19. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    IF GOD DOES SOMETHING BY GRACE, HE DOES IT PURELY BY GRACE. This will always be the most difficult truth for man to grasp. Man could not possibly have invented grace. If he could have, it would be present in one or more of the world’s religions, but it is not. It is remarkable by its absence. It had to come from the drawing board of Heaven.

    Rom 11:6
    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    Paul is telling the Romans, and God is telling us that grace and works are mututally exclusive as means of approach to God. In other words, we must either approach God on the basis of His grace alone or on the basis of our works alone. This verse controverts Galatianism, the attempt to mix law and grace. Galatians 5:1-4 makes plain that to step on to law-ground is to remove oneself from Grace-ground and to lose all benefit from Christ.

    The root meaning of grace is "gift." It is the grace of God alone that makes it possible for God to give us eternal life freely--without cost. A gift is always something absolutely free to one party because fully paid for by another. The carnal mind will inevitably seek to temporize this truth. All of the world and most of the church will throw up its hands in horror at the thought that all that God requires in order that the sinner be saved is that the sinner trust what God has done at Calvary. Man will object that there is no merit in simply believing. Exactly! That is just the point! The moment faith is made meritorious it becomes a work and actually precludes grace. Man insists on doing something good to offset what he has done that is bad. But doing what we are supposed to do can never undo what we weren’t supposed to do. That is what religion is all about, hiding from God. God HATES religion. That’s why Christ died for us sinners.
    Universally, man insists that he isn’t so totally lost that he cannot do something to help make amends. If he must go to Calvary to be saved, thinks man, then at least he can bring his merit, performance, and production with him. So he attempts to bring with him his little red wagon full of goodies. Surely God will recognize all the good things that he has done, he thinks; of course God will not overlook the bad things that he has refrained from doing. He brings his baptism, his confirmation, his church...certainly God will be impressed by his church! At Calvary, however, all the best things that could ever be said of us were not only ignored but rejected. God is no man's debtor (Romans 4:4,5). At Calvary, forsaken by God and man, Christ died for sinners, paying the wages of our sin in their entirety. At Calvary, "He...by Himself purged our sins" (Hebrews 1:3). At Calvary, nothing is said of Mary mediating, martyrs dying, saints praying, or taking communion. There were no Protestant evangelists there with aisles for the sinner to walk...no priests to grant absolution...no candles to light, no sacraments to observe. There was Christ. Christ was there dying for sinners...offering the only sacrifice that the Father could ever accept.

    When man stands before his Creator, he stands there fully redeemed by the cross-work of God’s Son or not redeemed at all. One cannot be a little bit pregnant, a little bit dead, or a little bit lost. Nor can one be a little bit saved. Every person who reads this is either 100% saved or 100% lost. To be 99% saved would be to be 100% lost. Think of the seriousness of this fact. It would be far better never to have lived at all than to live and die unsaved. Our Lord asked what the profit would be if a person gained the whole world and lost his soul. This is the real crossroads of life, the point where we accept or reject his offer of salvation full and free.

    One of the several reasons why Christians are virtually silent about the One Who paid the highest price for them that will ever be paid for anything or anyone in all of Eternity is ignorance of the nature of salvation. Salvation is totally free to the sinner...no strings attached. It is the FREE GIFT OF GOD to the UNGODLY (which everyone is in the eyes of God). This is because it has been fully paid for by God’s Son. It should be no more difficult to inform one’s neighbor that Christ purchased eternal life for him than to tell him that he has won a lottery. God has made it simple-- Christ died for our sins, all of them. Sin is no longer the issue; it can no longer be. Sin has been dealt with fully and finally. The only issue now is faith.
    Will we sinners believe what the Father believes about the work of His Son on the cross? This is the issue! And the only one! Someone described faith as "the hand of the heart," and so it is. Faith is a non-meritorious activity.

    When we have trusted God, we have done the only thing that man can do without doing anything. As a matter of fact, when we trust God we are turning to Him from every other possible object of trust. We are ceasing to "do" anything and counting fully on what He has done for us.

    Ephesians 2:8 tells us that we have been saved "by grace through faith." Notice that faith is not the savior here; it is simply the channel of salvation. Grace is the savior--grace alone. Grace is God doing all the hard part in our salvation. Faith is our part, the "easy" part, if casting aside all other hopes can be called easy! Faith is the simple acceptance on the part of the sinner of the cross-work of Christ as his only hope of Heaven. Some will object that this is "cheap grace" and "easy believism." How can Grace be easy believism when most people and certainly religion DON'T BELIEVE IT! It can be the hardest thing to come to the cross of God empty-handed, and trusting that He did it all for you. Grace could never be "cheap;" it cost God the Father the life of His Son. Clinging to Christ alone while turning one’s back on one’s good works can never be easy--it is completely foreign to the mind of the flesh. Whenever I hear these objections--"cheap grace," "easy believism," I realize that the one objecting has never truly grasped the awful extent of his lostness and so, cannot appreciate the magnitude of God’s generosity.

    Works, as a means of approach to God, rule out grace; grace rules out works. After the sinner is saved, his works as a believer are precious to God (Ephesians 2:8-10). Works that were a stench in the nostrils of God when presented to Him by the sinner as an alternative for, or an addition to the cross, when performed by the believer take on a fragrance in which God delights. Good works never issue IN our salvation, they always issue FROM our salvation.

    If Christ’s death only "threw the door of Heaven open" but didn’t guarantee a place in Heaven for us, how can we be said to have died with him? If I died to all that I was in Adam, when Christ died, and rose to all that I am in Christ when Christ rose (Romans 6:1-4), then I am through forever with sin and death, and hell and judgment! I clothed in the filthy rags of my own "righteousness" (Isaiah 64:6) is history. I clothed in the righteousness of God is the only reality now (1 Corinthians 1:30).
     
  20. rmarchy

    rmarchy Member

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    In the tenth chapter of Hebrews God and Paul tell us that the Law with its many sacrifices offered on Jewish altars could not "take away sins" and therefore could not make the Jewish worshipper perfect (Hebrews 10:1-4). Then in the tenth verse comes the great contrast, "we have been sanctified (saint-ifed; we don't have to wait while we're dead for some council to declares us saints) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." In some of our English versions we find simply the word "once," but the meaning of the original Greek word is "once with finality," "once in perpetuity," "once for ever," or "once for all." In the eleventh and twelfth verses we find the contrast again. This time it is between the Jewish priest offering repeated sacrifices and "this Man," Christ, offering "one sacrifice for ever" and then sitting down--something the Jewish priest never did because his work was never completed. Christ offered only one sacrifice with finality, and sat down because His work was completed, and He sat down at the right hand of God! His finished work completely satisfied the holy nature and the righteous demands of the Father, and so He sat, perfectly accepted, at the Father’s right hand (1 John 2:2). His death on Calvary paid the wages of sin for us (1 Corinthians 15:3; Romans 6:23). He had no sins of His own (2 Corinthians 5:21). His acceptance at the right hand of the Father was our acceptance since He did not need to die to have acceptance with the Father for Himself.

    It is vitally important to notice that the great contrast here is a contrast between many sacrifices made by an earthly priesthood and one sacrifice made by the Heavenly High Priest. It is not a contrast between the many sacrifices of Old Testament times and many "unbloody sacrifices of the blood" now-a-days. It is many sacrifices that could not take away sin, versus the one sacrifice that did! Christ had to be both Priest and Lamb; He was, and with that God is satisfied for all Eternity..."one sacrifice forever" (Hebrews 10:14). According to God Himself, it is not the offering of the "Host," nor thousands of such offerings, nor countless millions of such offerings, but the once-for-ever offering of the Son of God upon the cross of Calvary that pleased the Father, fulfilled His desires, and answered eternally to His will (Hebrews 10:5-10). His blood is the key to our redemption (Romans 3:25).

    Thousands of priests offering millions of animals for fifteen hundred years did not judge and put away one single Jewish sin, or any of our sins today. These sacrifices, like the many Gentile sacrifices before them, were ordained of God as a type, or foreshadowing, of the then future sacrifice of Christ. Christ the Anti-type, the Fulfillment, came, died on the cross and rose again, leaving no more need of the type. Substance took the place of shadow! Now, thousands of priests offering millions of wafers can accomplish nothing except to deny what God so clearly has said about the crosswork of His Son.
    The issue is not Protestantism vs Catholicism. It is not one church versus another. It is God’s truth versus man's tradition, the Holy Bible speaking clearly versus the reasoning of man.

    Trust Christ, say in the privacy of your own mind, you don't even have to pray... you DON'T make Jesus Lord of your life (He IS LORD ALREADY, you didn't make Him Lord), and you DON'T ask Jesus to come into your heart, that is NO WHERE in scripture! But the moment you say in the privacy of your own mind, Father i am trusting in what your Son has accomplished for me on that cross. I realize that He came to Earth as Your lamb, the lamb of God, an unblemished offering, to take away my sins. I know He has died my death and paid my penalty and I am TRUSTING IN HIS BLOOD, for the full payment of my sins, for my salvation.

    The moment you believe that, you are transformed from a child of disobedience to a son of God, and you HAVE salvation, it's yours to keep for eternity, and no one and nothing can take it away from you. Not even God.

    On Calvary, Christ did not merely "throw the door of Heaven open," leaving the work of our salvation unfinished...leaving something more to be done. On Calvary, Christ did everything necessary to bridge that otherwise unbridgeable chasm that, of necessity, existed between an infinitely holy God and sinners in abject ruin (Romans 5:9-10). God believes His Son’s work to be perfect, and we are saved when we believe it too (Acts 16:31). That's Grace, and that's Eternal Security. God saves to the UTTERMOST! (Heb. 7:25) The best part is, don't take my word for it at all! Check it out for yourselves. Let God be true and every man a liar!
     
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