"Christian Nationalism is Not Christianity"

[Windwalker]

This is a quote from Amanda Tyler, the executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty and the lead organizer of the Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign, in the video below. In the interview she articulates,

"Christian Nationalism is not Christianity. Christian Nationalism is a political ideology and a cultural framework that tries to merge our identity as Americans and as Christians. And in the process it threatens American democracy. It distorts America's promise of religious freedom for all. And importantly to me and thousands of other Christians, it distorts Christianity, sometimes beyond recognition. That's because it takes Christianity's central message, which is a gospel of love, and turns it into a false idol of power. It confuses our allegiances to God, and replaces it with an ultimate allegiance to Country."​

I have found recently this defining of what Christianity Nationalism is, as something different than Christianity to be helpful to me in sorting out my own feelings about the Christian religion. I sought out the Christian religion to help me with spiritual questions earlier in my life. And while I found some nourishment in some of the practices and teachings, the religion itself I was part of became polluted with what I now understand recently is, this Christian Nationalist view. At the time, it conflicted with the spiritual heart of my faith, which was about seeking the unconditional love of God.

Instead, this Christian Nationalism was being superimposed on the Christianity of faith I was searching, as it was the taking of Christian truths and symbols and using them for political power and advantage. It became all about us vs. them, the right vs. the wrong, and so forth. On a spiritual level, while a student in one of their Bible colleges hearing all this rhetoric from the Christian Right in the early 80's, I kept hearing in my head "By their fruits you shall know them". Eventually, I broke free from that as, even though I didn't know where to go afterward, as I knew this was not the Spirit of Love that I felt in my heart spiritually, nor what I could read from scriptures as a theology major, and I felt spiritually compelled to make a break from them.

Yesterday, I found this article from the magazine Christianity Today, while talking with @KenS in another thread. It perfectly articulates the same things the woman in the video says, and what I myself experienced and think about it now today. This is a good article I recommend reading:

What Is Christian Nationalism?​

While I will acknowledge you may have those who are sincere in their desires for Christian faith, like I was when it was attempting to suck me in back in the 80's, they are getting culled out into this Nationalist Identity stuff under the name of Christianity. Christian Nationalism itself is at its heart to me, and many others who identify with Christianity in some way or another, as the very opposite of the teachings of Jesus. The two are not really compatible with each other, as Christianity operates from Love, which is invitational, and Nationalism operates by Force, which is violent and oppressive. It seeks to impose, not to transform. It seeks to dominate politically, and through physical violence as necessary. What you saw on Jan. 6, with violent insurrectionists praying in Jesus' name in the Senate chambers, was not Christianity. It was Christian Nationalism. I would go so far as to identify it as "wolves in sheep's clothing", for that very reason.

What are your thoughts? Is there a difference for you between Christianity and Christian Nationalism? Is Christian Nationalism not Christianity at all, as many Christians claim? I would have to say I don't believe it is either. "By their fruits you shall know them Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?".

@Orbit

 

[Twilight Hue]

This is a quote from Amanda Tyler, the executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty and the lead organizer of the Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign, in the video below. In the interview she articulates,

"Christian Nationalism is not Christianity. Christian Nationalism is a political ideology and a cultural framework that tries to merge our identity as Americans and as Christians. And in the process it threatens American democracy. It distorts America's promise of religious freedom for all. And importantly to me and thousands of other Christians, it distorts Christianity, sometimes beyond recognition. That's because it takes Christianity's central message, which is a gospel of love, and turns it into a false idol of power. It confuses our allegiances to God, and replaces it with an ultimate allegiance to Country."​

I have found recently this defining of what Christianity Nationalism is, as something different than Christianity to be helpful to me in sorting out my own feelings about the Christian religion. I sought out the Christian religion to help me with spiritual questions earlier in my life. And while I found some nourishment in some of the practices and teachings, the religion itself I was part of became polluted with what I now understand recently is, this Christian Nationalist view. At the time, it conflicted with the spiritual heart of my faith, which was about seeing unconditional love of God.

Instead, this Christian Nationalism was being superimposed on the Christianity of faith I was seeking, as it was the taking of Christian truths and symbols and using them for political power and advantage. It became all about us vs. them, the right vs. the wrong, and so forth. On a spiritual level, while a student in one of their Bible colleges hearing all this rhetoric from the Christian Right in the early 80's, I kept hearing in my head "By their fruits you shall know them". Eventually, I broke free from that as, even though I didn't know where to go afterward, as I knew this was not the Spirit of Love that I felt in my heart spiritually, nor what I could read from scriptures as a theology major, and I felt spiritually compelled to make a break from them.

Yesterday, I found this article from the magazine Christianity Today, while talking with @KenS in another thread. It perfectly articulates the same things the woman in the video says, and what I myself experienced and think about it now today. This is a good article I recommend reading:

What Is Christian Nationalism?​

While I will acknowledge you may have those who are sincere in their desires for Christian faith, like what was attempting to suck me in back inthe 80's, they are getting culled out into this Nationalist Identity stuff under the name of Christianity. Christian Nationalism itself is at its heart to me, and many others who identify with Christianity in some way or another, as the very opposite of the teachings of Jesus. The two are not really compatible with each other, as Christianity operates from Love, which is invitational, and Nationalism operates by Force, which is violent and oppressive. It seeks to impose, not to transform. It seeks to dominate politically, and through physical violence as necessary. What you saw on Jan. 6, with violent insurrectionists praying in Jesus' name in the Senate chambers, was not Christianity. It was Christian Nationalism. I would go so far as to identify it as "wolves in sheep's clothing", for that very reason.

What are your thoughts? Is there a difference for you between Christianity and Christian Nationalism? Is Christian Nationalism not Christianity at all, as many Christians claim? I would have to say I don't believe it is either. "By their fruits you shall know them Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?".

@Orbit

It's kind of a grey area to me. There's no denying how Christianity played a significant role in developing this nation, but on the other hand, Christianity dosent own or control this nation either, and thankfully so as per the protections against any dominant religion with an eye for forcing a theocracy and taking everything over.

 

[Windwalker]

It's kind of a grey area to me. There's no denying how Christianity played a significant role in developing this nation, but on the other hand, Christianity dosent own or control this nation either, and thankfully so as per the protections against any dominant religion with an eye for forcing a theocracy and taking everything over.

I'd recommend watching that video for more details, as well as reading that article. It gets into the founding of the nation, and how Christian Nationalism misrepresents the role of Christianity in the founding of this nation. From a theological perspective as well, it's really not that fuzzy a line. They are really opposites. Two different species of animal.

 

[ChristineM]

In the same way islamic terrorism is born of the muslim faith christian nationalism is born of Christianity.

Both are bastardisations of the particular faith which they are [loosely] based on

 

[Estro Felino]

I think that each of us has their own vision of "Christianity".


My vision is:
Being Christian Nationalists is being Christians because being Christian means to be faithful to one's nation, to one's people.
I could also say that those who claim to be Christians and participate to occultist lodges, political sects, or believe in esotericism and in magic, are not real Christians.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Christianity knows no Nation.
It's not that one can't be Christian and love thier nation.
But Christianity could still exist if Nations didn't exist.
It's not my call to say who is and who isn't a real Christian... But who you vote for does not define whether or not your belief is real.

I believe America was founded as a Christian Nation. But Christianity existed long before America did... And will continue to exist if America no longer does.

 

[Estro Felino]

Christianity knows no Nation.
It's not that one can't be Christian and love thier nation.
But Christianity could still exist if Nations didn't exist.
It's not my call to say who is and who isn't a real Christian... But who you vote for does not define whether or not your belief is real.

I believe America was founded as a Christian Nation. But Christianity existed long before America did... And will continue to exist if America no longer does.

I know several intellectuals here who are atheists and acknowledge that it is the Christian civilization which has inspired the juridical tradition made up of secularism, tolerance and altruism.
Values exist regardless of God's existence, they depend on a civilization.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Christian Nationalism is nearly as old as Christianity, starting with Constantine. Charlmagne, Alfred the Great, Justinian I, it's always basically been there even though the faces and labels have changed.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I know several intellectuals here who are atheists and acknowledge that it is the Christian civilization which has inspired the juridical tradition made up of secularism, tolerance and altruism.

Was that before or after the Inquisition, the 30 Years War, and the Pogroms?

Wikipedia: Age of Enlightenment # Religion is worth perusing ...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I know several intellectuals here who are atheists and acknowledge that it is the Christian civilization which has inspired the juridical tradition made up of secularism, tolerance and altruism.
Values exist regardless of God's existence, they depend on a civilization.

The Bible is a book of extreme intolerance. Even Jesus, in one of his moments of hypocrisy, said it's my way or the highway.
Ultimately the Bible forbids freedom of religion under the penalty of death. Modern secular states, on the other hand, won't penalize people for turning apostate.
Women are another subject where the Bible has clearly influenced nothing of today because the Bible ****s on women throughout. We even had to make laws against domestic rape and abuse due to this nonsense a wife is to be totally submissive to her husband and do as he says, that a woman should not be in a position of authority over a man, she's to shut up and hang her head low while in church, and she's to blame for sin so we can't trust her.
It looks to me people are so attached to the Bible they will overlook and ignore the great evils of it to try to claim our freedoms and tolerances of today are inspired by "thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ***."

 

[Estro Felino]

Was that before or after the Inquisition, the 30 Years War, and the Pogroms?

Wikipedia: Age of Enlightenment # Religion is worth perusing ...

After...of course.
It seems to me that atheists are persecuted in no Christian country, in the 21st century.

 

[Truth in love]

This is a quote from Amanda Tyler, the executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty and the lead organizer of the Christians Against Christian Nationalism campaign, in the video below. In the interview she articulates,

"Christian Nationalism is not Christianity. Christian Nationalism is a political ideology and a cultural framework that tries to merge our identity as Americans and as Christians. And in the process it threatens American democracy. It distorts America's promise of religious freedom for all. And importantly to me and thousands of other Christians, it distorts Christianity, sometimes beyond recognition. That's because it takes Christianity's central message, which is a gospel of love, and turns it into a false idol of power. It confuses our allegiances to God, and replaces it with an ultimate allegiance to Country."​

I have found recently this defining of what Christianity Nationalism is, as something different than Christianity to be helpful to me in sorting out my own feelings about the Christian religion. I sought out the Christian religion to help me with spiritual questions earlier in my life. And while I found some nourishment in some of the practices and teachings, the religion itself I was part of became polluted with what I now understand recently is, this Christian Nationalist view. At the time, it conflicted with the spiritual heart of my faith, which was about seeking the unconditional love of God.

Instead, this Christian Nationalism was being superimposed on the Christianity of faith I was searching, as it was the taking of Christian truths and symbols and using them for political power and advantage. It became all about us vs. them, the right vs. the wrong, and so forth. On a spiritual level, while a student in one of their Bible colleges hearing all this rhetoric from the Christian Right in the early 80's, I kept hearing in my head "By their fruits you shall know them". Eventually, I broke free from that as, even though I didn't know where to go afterward, as I knew this was not the Spirit of Love that I felt in my heart spiritually, nor what I could read from scriptures as a theology major, and I felt spiritually compelled to make a break from them.

Yesterday, I found this article from the magazine Christianity Today, while talking with @KenS in another thread. It perfectly articulates the same things the woman in the video says, and what I myself experienced and think about it now today. This is a good article I recommend reading:

What Is Christian Nationalism?​

While I will acknowledge you may have those who are sincere in their desires for Christian faith, like I was when it was attempting to suck me in back in the 80's, they are getting culled out into this Nationalist Identity stuff under the name of Christianity. Christian Nationalism itself is at its heart to me, and many others who identify with Christianity in some way or another, as the very opposite of the teachings of Jesus. The two are not really compatible with each other, as Christianity operates from Love, which is invitational, and Nationalism operates by Force, which is violent and oppressive. It seeks to impose, not to transform. It seeks to dominate politically, and through physical violence as necessary. What you saw on Jan. 6, with violent insurrectionists praying in Jesus' name in the Senate chambers, was not Christianity. It was Christian Nationalism. I would go so far as to identify it as "wolves in sheep's clothing", for that very reason.

What are your thoughts? Is there a difference for you between Christianity and Christian Nationalism? Is Christian Nationalism not Christianity at all, as many Christians claim? I would have to say I don't believe it is either. "By their fruits you shall know them Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?".

@Orbit

So I have some issues with the movement as I understand it. But most of the flaws are the overreach of government to micro manage our lives. I see people upset by CN while promoting socialism which commits the same core “crimes”.

Am I missing something?

 

[Windwalker]

So I have some issues with the movement as I understand it. But most of the flaws are the overreach of government to micro manage our lives. I see people upset by CN while promoting socialism which commits the same core “crimes”.

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something. I'd suggest reading that article I linked to. What Is Christian Nationalism?

 

[Truth in love]

Yes, you are missing something. I'd suggest reading that article I linked to. What Is Christian Nationalism?

I did.


I found thinks like “
Christian nationalism includes specific policy prescriptions that it claims are biblical but are, at best, extrapolations from biblical principles and, at worst, contradictory to them.”

bit no clear examples of a problem.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Many of our nation founders were Puritans, others leaned towards Deism, and Christianity as a whole was fragmentated even back then. They knew that in order to keep a free and just society in tune in the times they'd have to develop a nation that respected the basic negative liberty of freedom of religion. In no way does the founding of our nation in any shape, way or form advocate for Christian Nationalism, regardless of many founding founders religion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't even believe the word "Christian" or "Christianity" ever appears in the documents that shaped our nation.

 

[Windwalker]

I did.


I found thinks like “
Christian nationalism includes specific policy prescriptions that it claims are biblical but are, at best, extrapolations from biblical principles and, at worst, contradictory to them.”

bit no clear examples of a problem.

This is what stood out to me from that article:

Christianity is political, in the sense that its adherents have always understood their faith to challenge, affect, and transcend their worldly loyalties—but there is no single view on what political implications flow from Christian faith other than that we should “fear God, honor the king” (1 Pet. 2:17, NASB), pay our taxes, love our neighbors, and seek justice.

Christian nationalism is, by contrast, a political ideology focused on the national identity of the United States. It includes a specific understanding of American history and American government that are, obviously, extrabiblical—an understanding that is contested by many historians and political scientists. Most importantly, Christian nationalism includes specific policy prescriptions that it claims are biblical but are, at best, extrapolations from biblical principles and, at worst, contradictory to them.
​

In other words, a Christian can be a conservative, or a liberal. They can see Christianity as more "socialist" in its injunctions, to care for the poor, help the downtrodden, etc. But that's not Christian Nationalism. It's not tying their Christian views with patriotism and American identity as a political movement.

Christian Nationalists define being a Christian and an American, as a specific narrow, political identity. That makes it the opposite of Christianity, IMO. That approach is not compatible with the core philosophy of Christian love, which tolerates, does not boast, does not exclude, and so forth. It breaks down the walls, not "Build the Wall!" as a popular chant has it.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Christian Nationalists define being a Christian and an American, as a specific narrow, political identity. That makes it the opposite of Christianity, IMO.

Exactly. Christianity isn't an American religion, it's a global religion, and perhaps even further one day. Jesus did not spread the love specifically to Americans, but to all Christians. Religion is not identical to nationality. Even in Judaism. You can be a citizen of Israel and not a member of the Jewish faith.

I'd like to hear some people who actually do believe that Americanism is identical to Christian. This forum tends to attract more so the liberals so people on the other side seem not to say as much.

 

[Truth in love]

This is what stood out to me from that article:

Christianity is political, in the sense that its adherents have always understood their faith to challenge, affect, and transcend their worldly loyalties—but there is no single view on what political implications flow from Christian faith other than that we should “fear God, honor the king” (1 Pet. 2:17, NASB), pay our taxes, love our neighbors, and seek justice.

Christian nationalism is, by contrast, a political ideology focused on the national identity of the United States. It includes a specific understanding of American history and American government that are, obviously, extrabiblical—an understanding that is contested by many historians and political scientists. Most importantly, Christian nationalism includes specific policy prescriptions that it claims are biblical but are, at best, extrapolations from biblical principles and, at worst, contradictory to them.
​

In other words, a Christian can be a conservative, or a liberal. They can see Christianity as more "socialist" in its injunctions, to care for the poor, help the downtrodden, etc. But that's not Christian Nationalism. It's not tying their Christian views with patriotism and American identity as a political movement.

Christian Nationalists define being a Christian and an American, as a specific narrow, political identity. That makes it the opposite of Christianity, IMO. That approach is not compatible with the core philosophy of Christian love, which tolerates, does not boast, does not exclude, and so forth. It breaks down the walls, not "Build the Wall!" as a popular chant has it.

They do take some things far, however given the many lectures on gotten on my lack of Christianity for not being a socialist, I’m not seeing anything out of the norm. I see a lot of pot and kettle. Thus my question about it missing something.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Christian Nationalism is nearly as old as Christianity, starting with Constantine. Charlmagne, Alfred the Great, Justinian I, it's always basically been there even though the faces and labels have changed.

But there has been plenty of times in history when Christians were the underdogs, persecuted and killed for their faith and it's still happening in many parts of the world.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But there has been plenty of times in history when Christians were the underdogs, persecuted and killed for their faith and it's still happening in many parts of the world.

The point was Christian Nationalism isn't new amd we've suffered about 2000 years of Christians running the show and making attempts at forcing us all under their banner, typically and often to the detriment of others (especially Jews and other Christians).