• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christian Magic

Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The Hammer said:
Is magic immoral? It played a role in the development of early Christianity

Christianity appears to have some historically magical origins. I wonder why it is shunned now?
Click to expand...
Deuteronomy 18: 9-12,
When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
Galatians 5:19-21;
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Leviticus 19:31;
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
the list goes on.
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18
 
King Phenomenon

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
G

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
From a Christian point of view, the distinction between magic and miracle is the same as the distinction between preternatural and supernatural. God alone is capable of supernatural acts and no amount of magical practice will incline God to perform for you. A miracle is by God's will alone. Magic on the other hand is nothing but the (attempted) invocation of the preternatural. (Whether the practitioner accepts that or not). Any attempt to do this violates the first commandment which commands us to trust in God alone. To have recourse to God alone.
 
ChristineM

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Magic in christianity is only bad when an excuse is needed to burn a witch or it appears to disparage chrichristianity in some way.
 
passerby

passerby

Member
The Hammer said:
Is magic immoral? It played a role in the development of early Christianity

Christianity appears to have some historically magical origins. I wonder why it is shunned now?
Click to expand...

Magic is outside the sphere of faith. I don't agree that it played a role in the development of early Christianity, or that Christianity had magical origins.

In order for miracles to occur faith is needed- we see this throughout the Gospel that intervention from Jesus is asked for, and a recognition that it is faith that heals people, and not magic.

For magic to work it does not need the consent of the receiver, in fact it is taken from their control and power is used upon them without their intervention. They are passive receivers and not active believers.
Belief in magic often comes afterwards, when it is seen to work. In faithful intervention belief has to come first, otherwise it doesn't work.

This is the reason magic is shunned, as you say.
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Shadow Wolf said:
Deuteronomy 18: 9-12,
When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.
Galatians 5:19-21;
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Leviticus 19:31;
Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
1 Samuel 15:23
For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
the list goes on.
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18
Click to expand...
Couldn't have said it better myself SW....:D
 
Estro Felino

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Musing Bassist said:
From a Christian point of view, the distinction between magic and miracle is the same as the distinction between preternatural and supernatural. God alone is capable of supernatural acts and no amount of magical practice will incline God to perform for you. A miracle is by God's will alone. Magic on the other hand is nothing but the (attempted) invocation of the preternatural. (Whether the practitioner accepts that or not). Any attempt to do this violates the first commandment which commands us to trust in God alone. To have recourse to God alone.
Click to expand...
Absolutely perfect explanation. It is misleading when someone says "that saint "performed" miracles when they were alive."
Actually it is God who performs them. Saints, prophets are just intercessors.
 
The Hammer

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
passerby said:
Magic is outside the sphere of faith. I don't agree that it played a role in the development of early Christianity, or that Christianity had magical origins.
Click to expand...

As a practitioner of Magic, I disagree with your first claim alone. The rest you would have to take up with the authors sources.

passerby said:
In order for miracles to occur faith is needed- we see this throughout the Gospel that intervention from Jesus is asked for, and a recognition that it is faith that heals people, and not magic.
Click to expand...

Maybe. But why did the Church have to convince people that Jesus was not a Magician at all, as the article states? It seems the distinction must not have been clear to the lay person.

passerby said:
For magic to work it does not need the consent of the receiver, in fact it is taken from their control and power is used upon them without their intervention. They are passive receivers and not active believers.
Belief in magic often comes afterwards, when it is seen to work. In faithful intervention belief has to come first, otherwise it doesn't work.
Click to expand...

Actually, magic works best with the consent of the receiver. You don't have a very good understanding of magic. Maybe peruse the DIR?.
 
The Hammer

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
Estro Felino said:
Absolutely perfect explanation. It is misleading when someone says "that saint "performed" miracles when they were alive."
Actually it is God who performs them. Saints, prophets are just intercessors.
Click to expand...

There is no way for the lay person to tell the difference. Which is why the church has to explain what is and is not Magic vs Miracle.
 
The Hammer

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
Musing Bassist said:
From a Christian point of view, the distinction between magic and miracle is the same as the distinction between preternatural and supernatural. God alone is capable of supernatural acts and no amount of magical practice will incline God to perform for you. A miracle is by God's will alone. Magic on the other hand is nothing but the (attempted) invocation of the preternatural. (Whether the practitioner accepts that or not). Any attempt to do this violates the first commandment which commands us to trust in God alone. To have recourse to God alone.
Click to expand...

It's a shame that the line between preternatural and supernatural is a purely Christian invention, being based on Thomas Aquinas. In the Natural world there is no such distinction, we create those boxes/labels.

I argue there is no distinction, and to place one was done merely as a way to denigrate those who performed 'miracles/magic' the church didn't like, or couldn't write off.
 
passerby

passerby

Member
The Hammer said:
As a practitioner of Magic, I disagree with your first claim alone. The rest you would have to take up with the authors sources.



Maybe. But why did the Church have to convince people that Jesus was not a Magician at all, as the article states? It seems the distinction must not have been clear to the lay person.



Actually, magic works best with the consent of the receiver. You don't have a very good understanding of magic. Maybe peruse the DIR?.
Click to expand...

The early christian missionaries (I presume you're referring to them) did spread the Gospel as a replacement (fulfilment maybe) to previous magical religions. If you can send me a link to the article I'll be interested to read it.
You are right, I don't have a good understanding of magic. I am a Christian.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
The Hammer said:
As a practitioner of Magic, I disagree with your first claim alone. The rest you would have to take up with the authors sources.
Click to expand...
It is outside of their faith as it going outside the "usual avenues" of praying to their god for their daily bread.
The Hammer said:
Maybe. But why did the Church have to convince people that Jesus was not a Magician at all, as the article states? It seems the distinction must not have been clear to the lay person.
Click to expand...
Jesus is viewed as divine and as having received his powers directly from god, such as the case with Moses bringing to the 10 Plagues upon Egypt. Moses was a miracle because he appealed to god. The Pharaoh's Priests weren't and made appeals to other forces--magic--to replicate the plagues they were able to.
 
The Hammer

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
VoidCat

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
While Leviticus clearly prohibits forms of divination there are some times magick is used including divination.
Examples:
Gideon’s use of the fleece to divine Gods will(Judges 6:36-40)
The use of Urim and Thummim in (Numbers 27:21) and 1 Samuel 28:6
Leviticus 16:7-10 involves casting lots
https://www.religioustolerance.org/divin_bibl.htm
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top