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Christian: Jesus' nature questioned?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Steve, Jul 28, 2005.

  1. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Somthing i often wonder about is how some Christians who also belive in evolution reconcile their belifes, i dont want this to be an evolution vs creation thread. Instead id rather discuss "what would Jesus Do" as he is the Creator to Christians. Hence the same faith debate section.

    quotes taken from this thread- http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15439



    What does that statement really mean to you?
    Do you belive Jesus for example was physical, or that his miracles of healing, raising people from the Dead, turning water to wine etc were real events that physically took place? If our religion is Real than it is also explicitly deals with the physical realm aswell. Do you regard the historic battles between nations described in the Bible to have really taken place, or the slavery that the Jewish people experienced while in Egypt, what about the Exodus? All of these things happened in the Physical realm, you cannot seperate religion from the physical realm if the religion is describing things as an explicitly physically event.





    More subtle tools ah? Do you belive that Jesus created the world?

    For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. Colossians 1:16

    Hebrews 1:5-10
    For to which of the angels did God ever say,
    "You are my Son; ..... v10 He also says,
    "In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
    and the heavens are the work of your hands.


    With what you know about Jesus, his ability to instantly heal the blind, raise people from the dead, instantly cure diseases etc combined with his love for mankind such that he would be flogged and crucified for their sake - Do you really belive he would use evolution as one of his "subtle tools"? Do you belive that he would use death, diseases, survival of the fittest etc to create a world described by God as "very Good"? Their are fossils that show diseases etc that evolutionists claim were laid down befor mankind existed.
    Do you belive that although Jesus was able to instantly heal, raise the dead etc - he instead choose to use diseases and death to bring about his creation?


    The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 1 Corinthians 15:26
    You may say this refers only to spiritual death but then i ask, why did Jesus have to physically die when he paid for our sins - to reconcile us to God, he took upon the curse that our sin brought upon all of Creation. Do you belive Jesus physically rose from the dead? was his body gone from the tomb, did he still bear the nail holes in his hands?
    I cannot see how you can reconcile Jesus in the bible to the theory of evolution.
     
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  2. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Good questions Steve.

    I can't speak for NetDoc, but I believe that God is the Creator of Heaven and Earth... this is a theological opinion that is the basis of my faith.

    HOW God created the world ... either in a literal 6 days.... or by evolution... is a scientific matter than is beyond the realm of my theological studies.

    To me, the Bible speaks but one word: CHRIST..... everything I need to know is summed up in the Life-death-and resurection of Jesus Christ..... the "how" of the creation of matter and the universe is not needed to help me live a life of discipleship with Christ.

    Peace in Christ,
    Scott
     
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  3. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    What we are really discussing here is not WHETHER God created the earth, but HOW God did it.

    Does a baker not "create" his cake? He starts with the raw ingredients, mixes them in a bowl, bakes them at the proper temperature and walla, we have a cake. Could not God allow more than "one step" to create our earth? Or are we going to limit how we allow God to create things? After all, once saved, a disciple is not immediately "perfect" are they? No, their "evolution" continues until they are called home.
     
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  4. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Great post NetDoc; I am delighted to see you back, even if you are obviously 'fishing' for compiments.:D
     
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  5. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Thanks Michel,

    It feels GREAT to be back in my "chair" and on the net! :D
     
  6. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Good post Netdoc.....Welcome back...

    The Least
    ~Victor
     
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  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Sounds like you're introducing a thread arguing against an ex nihilo creation, NetDoc. Since I'm pretty sure you wouldn't do that, I wonder if you had stopped to consider what you are suggesting. I thought the mainstream Christian community insisted that God created His cake without any ingredients.
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Ah Katzpur,

    That's like saying that a house built with tools is ex contractor. Why are you so intent on limiting God in the way he works? Is the Bible not inspired by God because he had men write it?

    God never told us HOW he created all things... only that he did. We seem "hell bent" on protecting God's honor by limiting his options.
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, NetDoc.

    I hope you had fun scouting. My hubby is a scouter, too (at least he was before he got too old to do all of the activities). He was a scoutmaster for years, earned his Wood Badge and miscellaneous other "stuff." He loved it.

    I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I don't believe in creation ex nihilo, but I believe that most Christians do. Regardless, I certainly wouldn't presume to limit God in any way, shape or form -- not that I could if I wanted to. My personal belief is that God created our universe (and others) from pre-existing materials and not out of nothing (sort of like a baker creates a cake, as you mentioned, or an artist creates a painting). Although I do not believe in a literal 7-day creation, I do believe God was at the helm. How He did what He did and how long it took Him are of little consequence in my opinion.

    Kathryn
     
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  10. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Amen Sister.
     
  11. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Agreed :)

    If God is able to create the raw ingredients why dont you belive he also assembeled them without death, disease, trial and error etc as the Bible says is the case?
    Do you limit God and say that he couldnt create everything without evolution? That he needed trial and error, to bring about what was once described in his own words as a "very good" Creation.


    And if you belive he could have created everything without death, disease, trial and error etc do you just suppose that he choose to use those things even though the bible tells us death and disease are the result of the curse which happened after the creation? and that
    "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." 1 Corinthians 15:26


    Actually there is alot in the bible regarding creation and esspecially the nature and character of the Creator.



    Jesus himself said refering to man and woman,
    "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'" Mark 10:6


    Maybe next time you are praying or worshiping the author of life you can tell him that actually scientists who dont belive he exists say that life wasnt formed on earth until much later, let alone humans like Jesus was refering to - make sure you also add that your inclined to belive those scientists over your Savior too. While your at it you might aswell confess that since you belive alot of what these men and woman are saying you also beliving Jesus to have used cruel methods to create and that you liken him to those who like to watch Dog or cock fights just to see which of the 2 in the battle for survival will win.


    Atheist Jacques Monod said it quite well.
    "[Natural] selection is the blindest, and most cruel way of evolving new species, and more and more complex and refined organisms. The struggle for life and elimination of the weakest is a horrible process, against which our whole modern ethics revolts. An ideal society is a non-selective society, one where the weak is protected; which is exactly the reverse of the so-called natural law. I am surprised that a Christian would defend the idea that this is the process which God more or less set up in order to have evolution." - "The Secret of Life, " broadcast interview, June 10, 1978.

    NetDoc you obviously belive in Jesus, and i dont mean to pick on you as i really agree with many of your posts in other threads, but dont you see where the "evolution" trail leads?
    Ill say this again.

    With what you know about Jesus, his ability to instantly heal the blind, raise people from the dead, instantly cure diseases etc combined with his love for mankind such that he would be flogged and crucified for their sake - Do you really belive he would use evolution as one of his "subtle tools"? Do you belive that he would use death, diseases, survival of the fittest etc to create a world described by God as "very Good"? Their are fossils that show diseases etc that evolutionists claim were laid down befor mankind existed.
    Do you belive that although Jesus was able to instantly heal, raise the dead etc - he instead choose to use diseases and death to bring about his creation?
    I cannot see how you can reconcile Jesus in the bible to the theory of evolution.
     
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  12. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Where does it say this?

    How condescending can you get Steve? Why don't you tell your creator that he can only create things YOUR WAY or else? Jesus NEVER spoke out against evolution, yet you have NO PROBLEMS putting words in his mouth. Paul was very clear about people who would be so incredibly arrogant as to do such a thing. You say you believe in Jesus, but I say you believe in the myth of a savior that YOU created and not the real one... you know, the one who said we would be known by our love. The one who inspired Paul to say he would be all things to all men. If there had been evolutionists back then, I am sure he would have been an evolutionist to the evolutionists that he might win some.

    Steve... don't you see where the "anti-evolution" trail leads? It leads to EXCLUDING PEOPLE FROM THE KINGDOM OF GOD. I will not be a party to putting ANY man made stumbling block in anyone's way.As soon as you find a passage telling me that "Thou shalt not believe in Evolution", I will be glad to preach that as "gospel". Until such a time, the first chapter of Galations tells me to be circumspect as to what I preach.

    II Corinthians 6: 3 We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. 4 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; 5 in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 6 in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7 in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8 through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; 9 known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; 10 sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything. NIV
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    The Bible makes it clear that death and suffering are the result of the curse mankind brought down on creation when they rebelled in the garden of eden. Yet Evolutionists belive that death and suffering have always been here, so if you belive in evolution does that mean the curse isnt real? Or that Creation which was already plagued with death and disease etc had death and disease introduced again because of sin - dosnt make sense does it.


    Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses.. Romans 5:12-14



    Or that death is an enemy - not an ally, yet if you belive evolution it becomes one of Gods subtle tools. However evolution also goes against Gods revelealed character, with what you know of Christ dont you think the theory conflicts just a tad? Thats why i included the quote from Jacques Monod - Jesus Christ of the bible and Evolution just dont mix, the Prince of Peace, the good shepard using death and suffering to create even though he has the power to do it perfectly, how is that not a slur on his character? The majority of Christians have belived that Jesus created things just like the bible says he did, yet now we have a theory rammed down our throats since childhood that undermines the whole bible, God the creator, original sin and therefor the need for Jesus our Savior, and we have just accepted it even though the evidence is pathetic when really looked into and it paints our Savior as a savage.



    "The last enemy to be destroyed is death." 1 Corinthians 15:26


    Jesus himself said refering to man and woman,
    "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'" Mark 10:6

    The order of creation that Genesis puts forth is in compleate conflict with the theory of evolution, is Genesis just a myth? or is it inspired by God? Are we made in Gods image? or pond scum given time to brew?




    I dont tell him he can only create my way - instead i accept what his word says about how he created, i dont have to put words in his mouth we have them written in the bible. So your accusation is false, instead id say its the evolutionists who are guilty of putting words in his mouth and supporting unbiblical concepts, putting death and suffering befor sin and stating Gods original creation was never perfect or "very good" as the bible cleary says.Heres an example
    You know it seems to me that "you have NO PROBLEMS putting words in his mouth. Paul was very clear about people who would be so incredibly arrogant as to do such a thing."



    How can you say i belive in a myth of a savior? you call me condescending, yet i would not say such a thing to you - as i said in my last post "NetDoc you obviously belive in Jesus, and i dont mean to pick on you as i really agree with many of your posts in other threads" What aspect of the Savior have i created that the bible dosnt ascribe to him?
    This is a Christian Thread im not trying to convert you to become a Christian i belive you already are, If Paul too were here to discuss this with fellow Christians dont you think he would state his opionion on what the Bible teaches?
    To say that you belive Paul would have been an evolutionist to the evolutionists is a big call, i strongly disagree because it undermines Gods Character, the Gospel by putting death and suffering befor sin and the perfect or "very good" creation as the bible cleary says. Jesus use to spend time with "sinners" etc but he never joined in with their sin, likewise Paul would have spent time with "sinners" but to say that meant he embraced their ideology is illogical considering the implications such an ideology suggests about the God Paul served.


    It dosnt Exclude people, i dont think that you arnt saved because you belive in evolution - However it is a fact that evolution has destroyed or weakend the faith of many people, so it is infact something keeps people from the kingdom of God, it is a stumbling block to many people, and you support it even though you have just stated you "will not be a party to putting ANY man made stumbling block in anyone's way" - evolution is a manmade theory trying to describe creation without the possibility of God - if thats not a stumbling block what is?
    For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Romans 1:20


    This verse makes it clear that we are without excuse because its obvious there is a God just by looking at what he has made - Yet if the theory of evolution explains away the need for God it directly contradicts such verses.

    As for 2 Corinthians 6:3 i agree - another reason why i hate the theory evolution, as i mentioned befor the theory becomes a stumbling block to many people.
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Death... perchance are you talking physical or spiritual?

    If eternal life is merely physical, then I should never see a grave.

    But it's spiritual, or as the Bible sometimes calls it "incorruptible". I expect my physical life to cease, but my spirit will continue to live, though asleep until the Lord comes.

    The death that Adam and Eve experienced as they left the garden was immediate and SPIRITUAL for their physical bodies lived for years after their sentence was given.

    But like 99.9% of the people you seem to concentrate on the physical. It's like some sort of morbid preoccupation with what will not last. A spiritual myopia that makes it hard to see what is really important: your spiritual side.
     
  15. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Is it now? It's a FACT that many like yourself have created an either/or enviroment where you can accept only evolution or God and since evolution is so stinking obvious you run people off in droves. You play RIGHT INTO SATAN'S HANDS by creating a stumbling block for your fellow men.

    Yeah, Satan has played you like a fiddle. Instead of concentrating on LOVE and BEING A SERVANT, he has you tilting at the windmill of evolution. Harsh? You betcha. Every soul that is run off by a rabid anti-evolutionist makes my blood boil. Learn from Paul: Be ALL things to ALL men. This includes evolutionist.
     
  16. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    Nice post. It made me think of leaven for some reason. Biblically, "leaven" is used to illustrate many truths. It is used to represent the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God, illustrating how the good news about those Kingdoms would spread throughout the world, yet the Kingdom would grow almost unnoticed until the whole had been affected. Evolution and The Word are in harmony with each other.
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    It was Spiritual as you say, but it was also a physical death sentence, the hebrew in Gen. 2:17 litrially means "dying you shall die".

    http://www.irr.org/English-Bible-Courses/scene2.html
    I am supprised you belive physical death and disease is something you think God intended for his "very Good" creation. Do you belittle our
    physical deaths?


    I have not said you cannot accept evolution and be a christian, i have said evolution is inconsitent with the Bible and the Creator revealed in the bible. The theory of evolution robs God of his Glory by stating all the life we see could have happened just the same without God - to say that the immense intelligence it would take to create the human brain for example is no different infact to the result of random mutations over time being selected as they offer an advantage, its absurd - to belive it is surley an offence to God, if i made somthing really complex and called it very good - only to hear people claim its the product of random chance etc i would be offended, how much more should God be. Not only this but the theory is a slur on Gods revealed character, the bible regards death as the last enemy and to say that God used death and disease is offensive when we belive he could have done it without. Do you belive the long ages ascribed to the first few generations of people? The bible specifically mentions them, they dont make sense from an evolutionary position. Or how about the Flood, Peter mentions it along with the scoffers.

    First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:3-7

    Or how about this? Does Jesus think the Flood was a local event, Gods local/partial judgement on the world?
    As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. Matt 24:37-39


    [​IMG]


    What is obvious about the theory of evolution, Creationists agree with natural selection, and decent with modification but not resulting in more information being added into the DNA of the lifeform. Mutations are usually destructive or rearrange already existing information but they dont produce more - you belive in a God who can turn water into wine, heal the sick, raise the dead, cure the lame etc instantly why cant you also belive that he created the parent kinds to the species we now have - as the bible says he created them "according to their kinds"? what so obviously shows that bacteria given time can end up as a human?


    How is it that you dont think i concertrate on love and being a servant? I honestly belive the Holy Spirit has guided me towards the stance i take, Jesus himself said the truth shall set us free. I see so much more of Gods glory in creation then i use to. You talk about satan playing me like a fiddle, are you even open to the possibility of a more literal reading of genesis being true like most christians of the past took it?
    My desire for people to come to Christ has never been stronger, NetDoc i am not your enemy, i belive i shall met you in heaven - please please prayfully consider what im saying.
     
  18. DreamQuickBook

    DreamQuickBook Active Member

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    I thank all the gods that ever were, are and will be, that Satan stands in opposition to religious ideologies like yours.
     
  19. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Excepting of course, that God created evolution.

    Then please quote ONE PASSAGE where God takes exception with evolutionists. Just one.

    If you want to win people over to Christ, then your attitude should be the same as Paul's: to become all things to all men. That includes evolutionists.

    Well, bless my grits! That's the first nice thing you have said about me! Hallellujah!
     
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