Le plongeur avec attitude...
I think the concept of perpetual virginity comes from our mistaken beliefs that sex is evil. How can something created by God ever be considered evil?
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How can we believe sex to be evil ? Ah, sorry, you did say 'mistaken'NetDoc said:I think the concept of perpetual virginity comes from our mistaken beliefs that sex is evil. How can something created by God ever be considered evil?
this is true, the bible does not say sex is evil this is a false teachingNetDoc said:I think the concept of perpetual virginity comes from our mistaken beliefs that sex is evil. How can something created by God ever be considered evil?
Cool.And so it was to be, that after the waters receded, Noah commanded all
the animals to "Go forth and multiply." Wow, quick response - thank you.
The ark quickly emptied, except for two small snakes, who stayed behind.
When Noah asked them why, they replied, "We can't multiply. We're
Now had he truly been resourceful he would have just used the wood from the ark, no?Noah, being the resourceful man he was, immediately got busy cutting
down trees and building a large table with the unfinished lumber
NetDoc said:I think the concept of perpetual virginity comes from our mistaken beliefs that sex is evil. How can something created by God ever be considered evil?
That's nearly the definition of anecdotal evidence. But to be fair, one could argue that both sides evidences are anecdotal.The historical argument is hardly anecdotal.
So what if I have to expand my number from "one who taught it" to "two who taught it." It still remains that the overwhelming number supported it.
So now theology turns into a democracy? Popular vote wins?It still remains, we're still counting the number of people with your view on one hand. We're up to two, because of an oversight on my part. It's hardly flattering, when I demonstrate an agreement to the opposite among so many other authors, though.
Origen was anathematized by the 5th Ecumenical Council.No, he was not in better standing than Origen. Origen never tried to schism away and claim to have it all figured out. Tertullian did. Both were immensly popular, but Tertullian decided to make himself an enemy of everyone else. Origen never took that step.
Isn't that just an argument that He was born of a virgin, and not that she was a perpetual one?It's in the First Apology, similar to the PEoJ.
Don't worry, I had to google it to find out. I'm not that knowledgable to just pull that out of a hat. But I am learning more about the early church fathers!I am willing to concede error here
Even more importantly, Greek and Latin both use adelphos and frater respectively for both "step-brother" and "half-brother." I don't think citing their use of "borther" when the argument is about Jesus having "step-brothers" is very strong.
So you contend that Mary didn't marry Joseph, and that James and co. were step-brothers???? I'm sure you wouldn't argue half-brothers, and neither would I. But do you see the contradiction there?Views that Mary wasn't married are "tripe." However, you don't have any evidence she was married. However, the arguments that disagree with you don't need to be critiqued, they are simply dismissed as "tripe."
So you would say Mary was Holy????? Didn't Christ say that nobody was even good????It comes from a concept of holiness, that that which was set apart for God's Incarnation is holy, just like the Ark of the Covenant was holy.
Chris said:That's nearly the definition of anecdotal evidence. But to be fair, one could argue that both sides evidences are anecdotal.
Chris said:So now theology turns into a democracy? Popular vote wins?
Of all those early Christian fathers you so heavily depend upin, I wonder how many of them believed in the creation story? I'd be willing to bet that most all of them would have rigorously defended it. So does that make it true? Because 95%, or more, of the church believed it - including the church fathers?
How many more things did they believe back then that we don't believe today?
Chris said:Origen was anathematized by the 5th Ecumenical Council.
The point of that isn't to say he was a bad man. I appreciate Origen and some of his works (others would be considered heretical....), and I don't believe you should discount him because of that council. Neither do I believe (and I don't think you do either), that Tertullian should be ignored because of his status with the church.
Anyways, the only point of Tertullian was to show that Helvidius wasn't the first, and that it had been believed for at least a century prior.
Chris said:Isn't that just an argument that He was born of a virgin, and not that she was a perpetual one?
Chris said:Don't worry, I had to google it to find out. I'm not that knowledgable to just pull that out of a hat. But I am learning more about the early church fathers!
Chris said:So you contend that Mary didn't marry Joseph, and that James and co. were step-brothers???? I'm sure you wouldn't argue half-brothers, and neither would I. But do you see the contradiction there?
Chris said:Anyways, sorry this is short. You deserve a longer more elaborate post, but I gotta get to my Econ class. I'll try and complete it tomorrow.
Chris said:So you would say Mary was Holy????? Didn't Christ say that nobody was even good????
Joannicius, read Ezekiel 44:2 and think of Mary.....Joannicius said:No*s, you remind me of the first time Fr. Joseph in Yakima told me that Mary is the fulfilment of the types in the OT which was prefigured by the Ark of the Covenant and the Burning Bush.
NetDoc said:Sex is holy. Set apart only for marriage. So Mary would still be holy having sex with Joseph.
SOGFPP said:Joannicius, read Ezekiel 44:2 and think of Mary.....
<< Ezekiel 44 >> http://www.religiousforums.com/bible/index.php?keyword=2 Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut.
No*s, you remind me of the first time Fr. Joseph in Yakima told me that Mary is the fulfilment of the types in the OT which was prefigured by the Ark of the Covenant and the Burning Bush.
I just couln't wrap my mind around it and grasp what in the world he was talking about .
But now the beauty of it shines like an ember in my heart and opens so
many things that was shown us figuratively in the OT that I am more
excited each time I read and see a new jewel that was place back then
to show us our present and future and the life we now live with all
those who have gone before.
We are Church Militant!
They that have already arrived are the Church Triumphant
Joannicius said:What do you thinK?
Hello Preceptprecept said:The answer to your query is an emphatic "NO"!
You will find your answer in the words of the angel that appeared to Joseph "....in a dream". "Fear not" said the angel to Joseph, "to take unto thee Mary thy wife" Did Joseph disobey God to have Mary as his wife to have children with her despite her emaculately conceiving the Son of God? The answer is No!
God told Joseph to have Mary as his lawful wife....
And he did just that!...
The doctrine of "Mary's being in perpetual virginity" is a concoction of those who do not understand the plan of salvation.
In order to save to " the uttermost them that would be saved He like them must "suffer in all points like as we are.....Him like them must be tempted as we are tempted....Him like them must be exposed to sin and deprivation just like we are....So now because He iis like His brethren, He also is able to succor all who like Him is also tempted by the evil one. He is not ashamed to be called like His brethren even though He is Very God, the Sinless One...Nor does He need to be singled out as having a mother who never had sex with her husband, Joseph. Those are concerns of those who are out of touch with the pan of salvation. The plan of salvation's only desire; its only theme is to save the lost sinner by the sacricing of our Very God. Yes! our very God had to die for the sins of humanity; and He had to die for sins He did not commit.
"Perpetual virginity" is an urban legend concocted by those without the true understanding of scripture and fed to those who while illiterate and completely dependent on misinformed clergy for their spiritual understanding of the word of God, were fed with folklore and a gross misrepresentation of the word of God.
This folklore is still with us today in the form of "official church doctrine". and as espoused by the Roman Catholic church and or the Eastern Orthodox church? and Lutheran! Maybe?
Dear Joannicius...the scriptures are not "open to private interpretation"Joannicius said:Hello Precept
If an angel or anyone gives you permission to marry someone and you don't consummate the marriage, you haven't disobeyed, you have just plainly chosen not to.
Again..this is the substance of folklore. The bible clearly state that God Hates sin.[read Revelation chapter 2.] The bible also states in 1 Peter 1:20 that God formed the plan to redeem man from sin well before He even created man.A God who hated sin; decided to send His own Son to die as a sacrifice "to Atone for the Sin that His Father hated". It is only in this fashion that any human can be forgiven for any sin committed, only if and when such humans accept the atoning sacrifice of God's Son. Again read[John 3:16] Also read from scripture God's revealing of His plan to redeem sinful man in " "Our Father"...'Thy kingdom come'[the kingdom Christ initiated on earth]'Thy will be done on earth as it is done in heaven'....read from scripture;"God was in Christ reconciling the world BACK TO HIMSELF" 2 Corinthians 5:19 Also read Daniel 9:24...Christ came to "Finish the transgression"...."To make an end of sin"...TO MAKE RECONCILATION FOR INIQUITY"...."To bring in everlasting Righteousness"["the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in all who follow Christ's true teaching on salvation Romans 8:4...The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in all who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh. The righteousness of the law is not found in man's own carnal interpretation of God's word.]Joannicius said:Christ our God, the Only Lover of Mankind, died to destroy the power of death and hell that we may have life eternal, he did not die to please the wrath of God as believed in so many circles. He died in His love for us, that He may deliver us from where we put ourselves.
Joannicius said:Do you know that the statements you made related to "the folklore" is a denial of ALL of Christendom for at least the first 800 years after Christ established the Church that lives on today in Orthodoxy? The ones who gave us the "folklore" also are the ones who canonized the Scripture for us to follow. Were they correct in one aspect of canonization and not another?[/B]
You have been misled into believing that a few misguided individuals with delusion of ecclesiastical grandeur; by their sitting down with absolute power after silencing true Christianity by wantonly killing directly and through the instrument of state orchestrated slayings of "heretics" - God's true Christians; silienced and forcefully acquiring the rights of true Christianity; which they then summarily corrupted with false doctrines, one of which is the current subject matter of this thread....That these "usurpers of true Christianity" would have supposed that without their intervention, the word of God, kept alive for thousands of years before their perverted appearance; That His word would have been denied to the benefit of humanity but for their intervention, is preposterous beyond belief.
The old testament written over a period of fifteen hindred of years by prophets, who in the main had to use scribes due to their being illiterate...and who did not know of the existence of each other...nor did they read each other's writings; but "spoke and wrote under the influence of the Holy Ghost", would need frail impure and unfortunate humans to preserve His scriptures, scriptures that he preserved before their puny appearance is laughable.
In case you doubt my research..the next time you pass by a Jewish synagogue...enter its chambers!....request a copy of Torah!...But pray! do mind you don't request a copy of Torah as "canonized" by your church. You may also compare their Jewish original with the "canonized" version. If they are one and the same; you would have made a scholarly discovery of the identity of the "Usurpers" of true Christianity.
The New testament was a series of letters and eyewitness accounts of the THEME OF THE OLD TESTAMENT- JESUS CHRIST THE RIGHTEOUS. Their eyewitness accounts of the life and times of Jesus was preserved by the fledgling true Christian community that existed soon after Christ returned to heaven. Their only written scripture at that time was the old testament Torah. This community thrived under Paul and Jesus' disciples till during the mid first century when the first signs of corruption of true Christianity began emerging from the ranks of true Christianity. The disciple John refer to this false form of Chrisitanity in 1 John 2:18-19. Paul also referred to this false form of Christianity as it began corrupting the true..2 Thessalonians 2:7 and 2 Thessalonian 2:3-4.
The early Roman empire, in or around 63-70AD suppressed severely the Jewish community who was in constant rebellion against Roman authority. The Christians were, but for a handful of Gentile Christians, all of Jewish origin.
Thus they were as suppressed as the Jews of Judaism. It was to distance themselves from Judaism's Jews that some of the early Christians began accomodating the pagan practice of "emperor worship", by feigning to worship the "emperor's image" ....the pagan priest being paid to forge a certificate stating that that christian had indeed worshipped the emperor in the pagan temple.
Thus as false Christianity warmed up to appease the pagan emperors; false Christianity turned its ugly hand against the true practioners of Christ Christianity and in turn persecuted the true ambassadors of Christ in consort with pagan Rome.
False Christianity aided by pagan Rome then deceitfully acquired all the writings of true Christianity; falsely claiming to be its true owners, putting their stamp of approval with that of their profligate emperor Constantine; as together the corrupted and contaminated God's Holy Writ.
A stamp of approval, "the canon of scripture" I might add, that they held "in chains till the fifteenth century, when one of their own , their monk and priest, Martin Luther accused them of teaching falsely whle holding the truth of God prisoner, and in chains. iGod's Holy writ, His scriptures was kept from the public, while they desiminated "folklore such as common bread and wine became flesh complete with blood; and common fermented wine became real blood.---a blood, a might add different from all known blood seeing that this kind as "held up before unsuspecting devotees' was of the intoxicating kind. Other such false doctrines include the doctrine that Mary did not comsummate her marriage with Joseph and that even before Mary was conceived she was never contaminated with sin as was Adam and Eve.[the scritpures teach that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"...'All says the Roman Catholic church except for Mary'. The scriptures teach that there is none that doeth good...NO NOT ONE" No! so says the Roman Catholic church Our Mary has Never sinned'. Martin Luther refused to go along with this unholy deception and while he still embraced some of them still on his own wrote and transcribed the bible for the German people, thus following in the footsteps of others whose efforts served to undermine the catatonic clasp in which the word of God was held.
Who "canonized the scriptures? You asked! The scriptures transcend all human efforts to keep it in perpetuity or consign it to oblivion. The word of God "stand fast for ever--His Word emanate from HIM and has no need for human protection. His Word is Forever as He is Forever. Through eternity His Word will be our only Spiritual food as he lovingly feeds us his true Christians-from His own mouth with HIS WORD.
You talk of misinformed Clergy.......how many Orthodox Christian Clergy do you know personally?
They are many! They are legion!