Christian: Faith and Good Works

[Doc]

This question is to all Christians of any denomination...

What do you think is the most important part of your salvation. Is it your faith or your good works. I think Paul said faith without works is dead, but how about works without faith? Does it work? Is faith necessary for good works? Can one survive without the other?

I tend to think good works are more important but I am curious to hear what other Christians have to say.

 

[Melody]

This question is to all Christians of any denomination...

What do you think is the most important part of your salvation. Is it your faith or your good works. I think Paul said faith without works is dead, but how about works without faith? Does it work? Is faith necessary for good works? Can one survive without the other?

I tend to think good works are more important but I am curious to hear what other Christians have to say.

Doc,
Works without faith may make you and the recipients feel good, but it won't gain you salvation. Since good works are evidence of faith, I don't see how they can be separated. One is dependent on the other, no?

 

[precept]

This question is to all Christians of any denomination...

What do you think is the most important part of your salvation. Is it your faith or your good works. I think Paul said faith without works is dead, but how about works without faith? Does it work? Is faith necessary for good works? Can one survive without the other?

I tend to think good works are more important but I am curious to hear what other Christians have to say.

The reasons for being Christian sre hardly related to "saving one's own skin" otherwise known as SALVATION FROM HELL. If being Christian HAD ONLY TO DO WITH FOLLOWING the path to heaven to be saverd from hell then "following the path" would still mean that the Christian would have to conform to the requirements "of the path"[works] as dictated by "this path to heaven". If, on the other hand, Someone died so that the Christian need not bother to "work this path to heaven" then "work" would yet be what the Christian had to do, if only because he had to "work" on believing[faith] that this Someone had already done all the "work".

Being Christian in a world sold out to satan, is living like our Saviour lived. Our responsibility to a sinful, sinfilled world is to live godly despite the overwhelming attraction to sin. We thus like our Master are not distracted by the WILES OF THE DEVIL and we serve Him regardless of whether He takes us to heaven or leaves on earth.

Salvation from a sinful, sinfilled world is the goal of the Christian, if only because the TRUE Chrisitan is tired of the carnage that sin has caused to his Father's world and long for THE NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH WHERIN DWELLS ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS----or A WORLD FREE FROM THE CLUTCHHES OF SIN AND SINNERS AND THE FATHER OF SIN- SATAN!

The True Christian's concern IS THAT HE REPRESENTS HIS LORD FAITHFULLY TO A SINFUL WORLD. This representation of his Lord is in that he loves his Lord with all his heart, making him keep all his Lord's commandments; which contrasts him with those who only keep some of his Lord's commandments, or none at all, or those who insincerely keep them,[ie.those who are hitching a ride in the event there is some truth to the story of hell-fire.]

The apostle Paul describes the True Christian as; [NOT as one DOING ANY PARTICULAR WORKS, OR as one who may exhibit ANY PARTICULAR AMOUNT OF FAITH; but Paul describes THE true Christian as "RECONCILING THIS SINFUL WORLD OF SINNERS BACK TO GOD, EVEN AS JESUS OUR SAVIOUR DID"...2 Corinthians 5:19..

Your question to a True Christian has no relevance; because a True Christian is more interested in representing His Saviour in every regard, regardless of whether his Saviour takes him to heaven or leaves him on earth.


precept

 

[rmarchy]

The most important question ever asked may I suggest is the one Job asked Bildad four thousand years ago in the oldest book of the Bible, Job. "Can man be just before God?" This question is so important that it eclipses everything else. Suppose we were to have the answer to all of the other trillions of questions that could ever be asked and yet fail to ask and answer the one question the answer to which decides our eternal destiny. This question lies at the bottom of EVERY human heart. It may not be raised at social functions because we are afraid of what others would think of us if we departed from the mundane, acceptable, safe conversation that convention permits. But the question is always there, sometimes given serious reflection and, more frequently swept under our mental rug.

The question is so important that God and Paul devote one entire book of the Bible, Romans, to answering it. That's right ... the one expert on the subject, God Himself, fully and finally stated the answer two thousand years ago. Since Paul was a genius at making himself understood, and since God is the greatest communicator in the universe, all of us should know this answer with greater certainty than we know anything else. Unfortunately, Justification today is anything but clear to most people.

Is Justification instantaneous or progressive? Is it once and for all or might it need to be repeated? Does God justify (declare righteous) godly or ungodly people? If God justifies me, is there anything that I could do to undo my justification? How permanent is justification? What if a justified person sinned ... or even stopped believing? Do small sins leave one's justification intact, but large sins terminate it? Would many sins undo what God has done, but few sins not affect it? These are the questions over which men and movements fight, and yet, they were all answered clearly long ago in Romans, the Handbook of' Salvation.

Paul says that the righteousness (moral rectitude) of God is revealed in the good news of Christ. That God is upright I always knew, or could have known. But that God's infinite rightness is unveiled by His treatment of sinners at Calvary was never made known until God disclosed it to and through Apostle Paul.

IT IS NOT UNTIL WE REACH ROMANS that we learn that GOD JUSTIFIES SINNERS APART FROM ANY QUESTION OF THEIR WORKS! That HE JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY! That He RETAINS HIS INTEGRITY EVEN WHILE JUSTIFYING THE SINNER WHO ONLY TRUSTS CHRIST'S FINISHED WORK ON THE CROSS OF CALVARY FOR THEIR SINS! (Romans 4:5, Ephesians 2:8-9, I Corinthians 15:1-4)

Since this Divine revelation of justification by faith ALONE comes to us ONLY from God through Paul, it simply will NOT do to use proof texts from other parts of the Word to answer the great questions that attend the issue of our justification. When men, sometimes even good men, seek to prove that our salvation can be forfeited and is, therefore, no more than probation, by using texts from the Old Testament, the Gospels, or the Jewish Epistles they return us to the confusion that must exist when we are minus the Pauline revelation--the message of Christ risen and glorified. God tells us that His Son "brought life and immortality to light through the (Paul's) gospel."

If two things are unmistakably clear in God's letter to Rome, they are: that I CANNOT STAND before God in my own righteousness, and: That I CANNOT BUT STAND before God in HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS! Precisely here is where so many "drop their watermelon." SALVATION is NOT PROBATION! If I am on probation I am not saved! If I am saved I am not on probation! Christ did not die to be our Probation Officer, but our Savior! HE DIED OUR DEATH! On the cross of a criminal He died the death of a criminal for the criminals--you and me. My death has been died! Your death has been died! All that was wrong with us in the past or that ever could be wrong with us in the present or in the future was addressed perfectly and eternally in the death of the Infinite One Who was there on the cross FOR US! The debt of sin that we could never pay was paid in its entirety by Him Who is infinite in His deity and perfect in His humanity. God can and will ask no more! Nothing less than the death of Christ can save us, and NOTHING MORE IS NEEDED!

Have you ever heard of a fireman, having rescued someone from a burning building, changing his mind because of failures on the part of the one rescued, lifting the person back on his shoulder, climbing back up the ladder and throwing the ingrate back into the flames? No! Nor will God spurn the substitutionary sacrifice of His Son because of your failures or mine! Truly knowing that we are eternally secure does not lead to sinful practices, but to an ever-increasing desire to serve Him Who so generously forgives. Good works NEVER issue in our salvation, they issue from our salvation.

Look, God Himself tells us, in II Timothy 3:16-17, that "Every Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for ... instruction in uprightness: That the man of God may be mature, completely equipped for all good works." Believing this, we immediately recognize that the entire Bible is for us. Equally important is recognizing that NOT all of the Bible is TO us or ABOUT us. In Scripture, God addresses messages to many individuals and groups. He speaks to Man in his unfallen state and in his fallen state. He speaks to Satan, to Angels - fallen and unfallen, to the animal creation, and to inanimate objects. He speaks to His saints before delivering the Gentile world over to its own reprobate worldview and then He speaks to His favored nation, Israel. Even when He speaks to Israel He has messages for the nation as a whole - the messages differ from time to time as Israel's attitude and circumstances change - and different messages for the rebel and for the faithful saint within the nation.
Hopefully none of us would take a message addressed to Satan and apply it to Christ or vice versa. It would be obvious error to apply to Millennial saints a message addressed to fallen angels, or to apply responsibilities to children that God has reserved for parents, or to expect slaves to obey directions that the Bible intends for masters, and so on.

While most of us can readily see the self-evident truths of this reasoning, the Church historically has consistently failed to distinguish between its message and messages addressed to other groups of saints and sinners by God in His Word. For instance, the promises and warnings that God gave Israel are appropriated indiscriminately by the Body of Christ.

A safeguard against this widespread and destructive error and a key to understanding Scripture is recognizing the uniqueness of Paul's Apostleship and the distinctive character of his message. If Paul is one of the Twelve, then confusion MUST reign. Separate Paul from the Twelve as the Bible does, and maintain the Scriptural distinction between their message and program and his message and program.

For more info check out the book "Things That Differ" by C. R. Stam. You can buy it or even read the entire book right here...
http://www.bijbel.nl/things_that_differ.htm

It will help dispell most of the confusion in Christendom today, I hope you enjoy it.

[size=+1]"Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth."

[size=+1]--II Tim. 2:15.​

​

[/size][/size]

 

[No*s]

This question is to all Christians of any denomination...

What do you think is the most important part of your salvation. Is it your faith or your good works. I think Paul said faith without works is dead, but how about works without faith? Does it work? Is faith necessary for good works? Can one survive without the other?

I tend to think good works are more important but I am curious to hear what other Christians have to say.

I don't think they can be separated . You are hardpressed to have one without the other. Faith without works, is a limp dog. He just won't hunt. Works without faith will only occur for show. The honest form of either one spawns the other.

 

[Scott1]

Doc,
Works without faith may make you and the recipients feel good, but it won't gain you salvation. Since good works are evidence of faith, I don't see how they can be separated. One is dependent on the other, no?

Ditto.

Frubals to thee...

 

[Scuba Pete]

Which is more important? The Fruit or the Tree? If the tree is right, you will have GREAT fruit. But fruit that doesn't come from a tree is man made and artificial. It looks good, but plastic doesn't sit well in your stomach. Get the tree right, and the fruit will follow. You need to prune, fertilize and water it, but your reward will be great!

BTW, this is FAR more than our concept of "faith". Faith of the Bible is not just a simple belief... it's a MOTIVATING belief. How many of you will continue to sit and do nothing if you BELIEVED your house was on fire? NO ONE!!! You would be running around, calling the Fire Dept and getting your loved ones OUT of the house. Your faith in the fire would MOTIVATE you to action. So it is when your faith in God and Jesus are true.

Note: The tree represents our "faith", and the fruit represents "works".

 

[Scott1]

I can almost smell the smoke brother..... great post!

 

[Doc]

Thank you all for your posts! This is why I love these forums!

 

[brotherjim]

(Hey all you guys/gals: look out!!!!!!!! After being on this forum for, what, more than a year or whatever, I finally realized that there's this debate section over here--blame it on NetDoc who indirectly gave it away to me {-_-}.)

Doc, I suspect that you are not referring to Paul but James Chapter 2, the latter half.

Regardless, that passage to which I now refer is a litmus test and not something we as Evangelical/charismatic Christians conjure up or balance in our walk or the like.

James is simply warning us that if goods works are not being dictated to us by the Holy Ghost on an ongoing basis, resulting in our obedience to do them, then we are mistaken to believe that our faith is the needed Faith of God, but is rather just a soulish faith like we have that our car will start when we insert and turn the ignition key--this latter, lesser type of faith never able to save the soul.

See how, at least in the correct translations of KJV and NKJV and whatever others, James 2:1 begins by informing us it is the Faith of Jesus which will then be discussed--a Fruit of the Spirit, not human faith.

brotherjim

 

[precept]

Doc, I suspect that you are not referring to Paul but James Chapter 2, the latter half.

Regardless, that passage to which I now refer is a litmus test and not something we as Evangelical/charismatic Christians conjure up or balance in our walk or the like.

James is simply warning us that if goods works are not being dictated to us by the Holy Ghost on an ongoing basis, resulting in our obedience to do them, then we are mistaken to believe that our faith is the needed Faith of God, but is rather just a soulish faith like we have that our car will start when we insert and turn the ignition key--this latter, lesser type of faith never able to save the soul.

See how, at least in the correct translations of KJV and NKJV and whatever others, James 2:1 begins by informing us it is the Faith of Jesus which will then be discussed--a Fruit of the Spirit, not human faith.]/QUOTE]

BrotherJim....your statement..."The faith of Jesus---a Fruit of the Spirit..." is not scriptural in any translation of the bible. The bible states and clearly so that the "Faith of Jesus"... IS the "Righteousness of God". Or everyone who "Believe in the righteousness of God...also believe in His Son...and hence have the same faith that the Son has in the Father. This is known as the "Faith of Jesus". Romans 3:22

Romans 3:3 argues the point on the side of "unbelief" OR side opposite........"DID SOME NOT BELIEVE? SHALL THEIR UNBELIEF MAKE THE "FAITH OF GOD"/"FAITH OF JESUS" without effect?

Faith in God is related to BELIEVING THE PROMISES OF GOD THAT ONE DAY SINFUL HUMANS WILL BE WITH HIM IN HIS HEAVENLY ABODE. This is what the children of God HOPE for and is called "the Blessed hope" Faith according to Paul is the "substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"....Hebrews 11:1. The "substance of things hoped for"...is the hope of salvation....the "evidence of things not seen"...is no one can very the truth of this belief re the story of redemption....BUT YET THE CHILD OF GOD BELIEVES IT TO BE TRUE AND VERIFIABLE....."That is Faith" It is this faith in God, the "faith of Jesus"[only through Jesus can the plan of salvation come true] It is this faith in God that leads the child of God to engage in "works of righteousness" or engage in the same identical "Righteousness of salvation" as is "God's Righteousness" but done in the sinful human context and effective only by obtaining the Righteousnes of God through Christ.

Faith has little or nothing to do with "having faith that you are going to get a "new car". Such a desire for a "new car" may have more to do with coveteousness and envy, than faith. A true child of God is more interested in living godly in a world of sin; thus showing in verity that his faith in God, believed through the faith that Jesus had in his Father, will make him live as Jesus' faith in His Father, made Jesus also to live a godly life in a world of sin. By living this life dedicated in love to serving God, the true child of God demonstrates the "faith of Jesus". In the end God rewards His children as He sees fit. If a bicycle is His choice for your transportation; the true child of God is accepting of this mode of transportation in just the same way as if a "motor car" was God's choice for him...[His mode of transportation chosen for His Son the Creator of the Universe was the common "donkey", my case in point].

The people in scripture who were rewarded with miraculous works on the basis of their faith in Jesus....Only had their faith rewarded because they believed and sincerely so that Jesus was indeed God's Son and Messiah as sent by God to humanity. Again this belief identifies the "Righteousness of God" or His right "workings" in the redemption of humanity...and it is conjoined with the Faith Jesus had/"faith of Jesus" in His Father's "Righteous works" to redeem humanity.



precept

 

[intruth]

You cannot separate faith from the works which it produces. In Rev 19:7-8, it is the fine linen of the bride of Christ- the righteous deeds of the saints.

It is the "wedding garment" mentioned in Matt 22.

Those who are in Christ will have the fruit of the Spirit producing His works in and through them. We were created in Christ Jesus for "good works" which God prepared beforehand that we would walk in them.

These works grow as fruit on the vine, the result of faith and growing in Christ.

Just as Jesus remained in the Father, and the Father in Him "does the works", so it is with us, as we remain united in Christ through our obedience to His will, the Spirit within us "does the works"-

"the works which I do you shall do also, and greater works than these..."

If good works are not being produced in us, we must not be walking in obedience to God, for the result of obedience is righteous acts:

Joh 3:21 But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that HIS WORKS may be shown to be accomplished BY GOD." Faith is impossible to separate from it's fruit IMO.

Bob~

"Within our obedience His will is worked through us, and where His will is done, there has His kingdom come"

 

[brotherjim]

It has been the great lie of the church to teach that Fruits of the Spirit are gradually grown in the Christian--really nothing more than self-justification for their absence in those teaching it.

Even modern Bible translations have perverted the Truth, them taking what should be "temperance" or whatever similar (Gal. 5:23), and instead making it to read "self-control," such being an impossibility, the term being mutually exclusive to the word Spirit.

In other words, something is either of self/soulish, or it is of God/the Spirit--not both.

God does not need to gradually develop, neither gradually manifest Himself, as those attesting to the instantaneousness of the New Birth know. Fruiots of the Spirit are manifested by God's Spirit--not performed by man--as the Christian gets out of and stays out of God's Way. ". . . I must decrease."

'He must increase. . . ."

Each of the Fruits of the Spirit are given in a small "measure" (KJV) when we are born-again. When exercised and found insufficient, God is waiting in the wings to instantly give us, usually one at a time, each of the Fruits in all their perfect fullness and miraculous manifestation. It's 100% God at work; the Christian is commanded to rest from their labours.

Many personal testimonies from those who have instantly received the fullness of God's Love, for example, can be read on the site www.EnterHisRest.org. Sift as always.

Give up, let Him, brotherjim

 

[Scuba Pete]

Growth is pretty normal for the Christian:

I Peter 2:2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

 

[intruth]

As to "self control",

I may not be understanding what you have written, but, isn't self control, yielding our members to the Spirit, and not to the nature of the flesh?

Aren't WE told to take up "OUR cross" and follow Him, which lies completely in OUR obedience to OUR known will of God?

It IS the work of the Spirit that we are conformed into the image of His Son, but self control is our obedience to His will, because of the Spirit within us, be WE must obey.

It is just like if we are tempted, HE will make a way of escape that WE can bear it, but only if WE walk in it.

 

[magnolia]

I believe that faith is most important, because that is how we are saved- through grace from faith in Jesus Christ. Now Paul did say that faith without works is dead, but that means that we must prove that we do have that faith truthfully- we go to church, we read our Bible, we go soul-winning, we tithe, we have the joy of the holy spirit.

On the other hand, I believe that a person without those works that prove faith and still has faith is just as saved. There are some saved Christians who refuse to go soul-winning, who refuse to go to church, who refuse to (or just get lazy) read their Bibles. I believe that they are still saved though. It is the faith that is ultimately what is in question.

If a person has works with no faith, then I believe that God does not see that as good enough because he tells us in his Word that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. I believe that no one can work their way to heaven, but must have child-like faith in the mercy of God.

 

[brotherjim]

As to "self control",
. . . Aren't WE told to take up "OUR cross" and follow Him, which lies completely in OUR obedience to OUR known will of God? . . .

Dear "intruth,"

I'm not knowing who you are addressing, but:

There are of course both Fruits of the Spirit and "fruits" of the soul/flesh. Patience, for example, is of the soul, and is therefore gradually had; whereas Long-suffering (Gal. 5:22; KJV/NKJV; sometimes in contemporary translations also rendered "patience," however incorrectly so, as a distinction needs to be made between that which is Spirit and that of flesh) is a Fruit of the Spirit and therefore, like a-ga-pe Love, avail. to be instantly and perfectly manifested in our lives by God's Spirit as we get out of its way (". . . I must decrease.").

In regards to taking up our cross, perhaps the single greatest need in that arena is for us to enter into the sabbatismos "rest" of Heb. 4:9, which is to cease from doing post-New Birth, so-called "well-meaning," actually self-righteous good works of flesh, in favor of only that which the Holy Ghost specifically dictates. (And note how Heb. 4:9's commandment for us as reborn Christians to "work" to enter into that rest, is in the orig. Greek not a laborious task per se, but rather a diligence, and along with Romans 7:21-25 and "the flesh profits nothing" implies a diligence of mind only, the Law of the Mind: "so that no man can [ever rightfully] boast," so "that no flesh should glory in His Presence.")

brotherjim @mail.com