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Christian: "Church"

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Scott1, Jul 4, 2005.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    "The word "Church" (Latin ecclesia, from the Greek ek-ka-lein, to "call out of") means a convocation or an assembly. It designates the assemblies of the people, usually for a religious purpose. Ekklesia is used frequently in the Greek Old Testament for the assembly of the Chosen People before God, above all for their assembly on Mount Sinai where Israel received the Law and was established by God as his holy people. By calling itself "Church," the first community of Christian believers recognized itself as heir to that assembly. In the Church, God is "calling together" his people from all the ends of the earth. The equivalent Greek term Kyriake, from which the English word Church and the German Kirche are derived, means "what belongs to the Lord."(CCC #751)

    What does "church" mean to you/your faith?

    Local? Universal? Both? Neither?

     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Just that Scott... the "FFOF" (Faithful Few on Fire).
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hehe... I get ya brother, but if there are only a "few"... what are the rest doing? Just gathering together for nothing?
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hi, Scott.

    To me it has different meaning, based on the context. But like you, I'm sure, I do not believe in the concept of "the invisible church." Jesus Christ actually established a Church and it was organized they way He personally wanted it to be. There can be only one such Church, only one (1) teaching the doctrines He taught and (2) holding the authority He gave to His Apostles.

    Obviously, I see that Church as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, that doesn't mean that I believe all other churches (Christian or otherwise) as wicked or depraved. I just don't see them as meeting the requirements I mentioned in the first paragraph. I believe that He hears the prayers of the members of these churches, too, and that the Spirit may attend them as they worship. In once sense, I see it as being entirely accurate to speak of "the Church" as representing all 30,000+ Christian denominations, because -- whatever their many differences -- I see them all as workshipping Jesus Christ as the Savior of the World.

    I believe that, ultimately, there will be just one universal Church -- Christ's Church. But that won't be until He comes again.

    Kathryn
     
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  5. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. NIV

    I like to believe what it says. :D
     
  6. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    That doesn't help me.. is the "church" not a place or a thing, but a goal(the narrow gate)?
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    The church of Christ is an organism. There are very few who find the way.

    Ephesians 1:18 I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20 which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way. NIV
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I guess I can't find the way ND... I don't have a clue what you are getting at.... let's see what other Christians may offer this thread.
     
  9. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Scott,

    let me elucidate with scripture:

    Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. NIV

    I Corinthians 12:12The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

    14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

    21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!" 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
    And now I will show you the most excellent way.
    NIV
     
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  10. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    ND, in your faith why do very few find the way? What is keeping them back? Sin?

    ~Victor
     
  11. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi Scot, I believe that Jesus started only one church, I believe the Church consists of a body of baptized believers, I believe that the Church was started on the first day of penticost [ Acts 2 ] those who heard the the Gospel or good news repented and where Baptized.

    Acts 2: 36 So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified to be both Lord and messiah 37 Peters words pierced their hearts and they said to him and to the other apostles brothers what shall we do 38 Peter replied Each of you must Repent of your sins, Turn to God and be Baptized in the name of Jesus Christ to show you have recieved the forgiveness of your sins, Then you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit 39 This promise is to you and your children and even to the Gentiles, All who have been called by the Lord our God. 40 Then Peter continued preaching for a long time, strongly urging all his listeners " save yourself from this crooked generation. 41 Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church about 3000 in all..
    Moving down to verse 47 All the while praising God and enjoying the Good will of all people And each day the Lord added to thier fellowship Those who were being saved... what did Peter tell people to do,,Each of you must REPENT of your sins turn to God and Be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and then you will recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit..This Is what I believe is the entrance into Christs Church.. ;)
     
  12. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Well of course Scott knows what I think...
     
  13. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Sorry I missed this Victor.

    There are two scriptures which come to mind:

    Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
    A Tree and Its Fruit

    15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
    21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' NIV

    and of course;

    Matthew 13:1 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 He who has ears, let him hear."


    10 The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"

    11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables:
    "Though seeing, they do not see;
    though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
    " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
    15 For this people's heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
    and turn, and I would heal them.' 16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
    18 "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown." NIV
     
  14. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Scott,

    I'm pretty sure you know my opinion on the matter. Our ecclesiology is not so different to yours (except in the obvious question as to where the Church is). I'll be happy to clarify things for others, though, if they don't know but are interested in our position.

    James
     
  15. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    I follow the anglo Catholic view on the Church. Which is of course almost the same as the catholic stance. Except for who is the head of the church, and the matter of women priests.
    Of couse some of my personal views put me a little beyond the pale.
    But I am sure God still loves me.

    Terry
    ____________________________________
    Blessed are the pure of heart, they shall behold their God.
     
  16. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    [QUOTE=IacobPersul]Scott,

    I'm pretty sure you know my opinion on the matter. Our ecclesiology is not so different to yours (except in the obvious question as to where the Church is). I'll be happy to clarify things for others, though, if they don't know but are interested in our position.

    James[/QUOTE]
    Actually we don't even really disagree on where the Church is--just where the authority lies. Or at least, I am rather sure of that...
     
  17. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Don't we? I thought that Roman Catholic teaching was that the RCC is the One True Church, just as Orthodox teaching is that the Orthodox Catholic Church is the One True Church. Surely we can't both be right, which is why many of us (on both sides) have serious issues with the two lungs idea that Pope John Paul II came up with and which Patriarch Bartholomew foolishly seems to have accepted.

    Admittedly, we say that we know where the Church is but cannot be certain where it is not, so we can admit the possibility that Roman Catholics are in the Church, but the vast majority of Orthodox would certainly never affirm that they are. My experience of Roman Catholics leads me to believe that most of them would say we are outside of the Church also. There's more that separates us than just whether the Pope of Rome has authority or not.

    James
     
  18. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Well what I mean is, we say that your Preisthood is valid, your sacraments are valid, etc. etc. etc. The only thing is we would say you are in schism.
     
  19. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    But we do not reciprocate in this. At most we can say that we don't know for certain that your sacraments are invalid. There's definitely a difference here. (And we also believe some of your doctrines - particularly the filioque - are heresies, so there is more at play here than a simple Schism).

    James
     
  20. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Whom, exactly, is this "we" that you speak of? You personally.... Romanian Orthodox members.... every EO on the planet except for the Patriarch?

    I love ya James, but it blows my mind that you seem so firm in your denouncement of anything that leads towards healing our Church. Pope JPII and Patriarch Bartholomew have Mass together, recite the Creed in its ORIGINAL GREEK form together... and this is foolishness?

    ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC... if you are not working towards making this a reality, you are working AGAINST the Holy Spirit.

    May the Mother of God intercede for you James,
    Scott
     
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