Christian Church Attenders - Denominational Authoritarianism

[Muffled]

What I never realized until a few years ago, that excommunication does not release one from attending church, its meant to be a learning period though one is denied the sacraments until its lifted.

I believe the Eucharist is supposed to communicate to a person that he is forgiven but the church does not forgive. Is the church above God? The same Peter who was told "Get behind me satan," was handed bread and wine by Jesus.

 

[Windwalker]

That's probably the most difficult leap for anyone wanting/needing absolute answers to acknowledge incomprehensible Mystery and rest in that Mystery.

That is what it means to surrender, or to let go.The egoic mind thinks it is best suited to manage everything. But in reality, getting the mind out of the way allows the rest of reality to do what it knows to do. It becomes a partnership, rather than a master and slave relationship. To "walk with God" is in this sense a metaphor that describes this balance between the human and the divine, before the Fall. It is a process of unlearning the habits of the mind, and developing a new way of being in the world.

FWIW, I heard an analogy once I thought captures that process. Once someone recognizes the ego as no longer what defines who you are, and that it is not all-powerful to solve all life's problems, it's like cutting the engines on a barge at sea. Even though you've cut back the engines, the momentum keeps the vessel going for many miles until it eventually stops.

The mind is a habitual machine. It runs programs that it was both programmed with externally, and what we program it with ourselves. What worked once, tends to get repeated. even if it makes no logical sense to do so anymore. So that breaking of movement in the water, is basically a matter of continually monitoring that the engines haven't gotten themselves turned back on again, because someone in the cabin missed the sound of them. You cut the engines, but then you have to ensure they don't start up again. It's easy to let them start up again, because we've grown accustomed to always hearing the sound of them being on.

It doesn't take that terribly long to break that habit. If you don't feed it, it loses steam and eventually comes to rest. It's habitual patterns then get replaced by newer, healthy, more able habits based a harmony between heaven and earth, and the human in balance and cooperation between them. That's what we are created with, but we fall from that early on, once the programming of the world takes over and replaces that natural balance with an image of itself, celebrating the ego as the master of the world.

 

[pearl]

I believe the Eucharist is supposed to communicate to a person that he is forgiven but the church does not forgive. Is the church above God? The same Peter who was told "Get behind me satan," was handed bread and wine by Jesus.

1Cor 11, 27-29

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.

Mt 5:23

Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you,

24

leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

Before forgiveness must come reconciliation. The bread and wine 'handed' by Jesus was not yet a sacrament, he also 'handed' bread and wine to Judas.
The Church extends a long latitude for one to make a case.

 

[tayla]

The question is whether the churches authority is so insecure that it can't allow different opinions, is it really worth defending at all?

I think of it in terms of whether the teachings and doctrines are true or not. Why defend something that is untrue, no matter what it's domain, religious, political, cultural, pseudo-scientific, pseudo-philosophical.

 

[Muffled]

continued from previous post...


This I really want to talk with you about. Working in ministry, I might assume you are familiar with James Fowler's research and mapping of the different stages of faith, in his book Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development and the Quest for Meaning? I've spent a lot of time in consideration of this in making sense of my own path of spiritual development and the changes within it. Where I am today, is very much different than I was before, and I can follow that progression against Fowler's model.

A note to these developmental stages first, is that later stages are predicated upon early stages. Later stages, follow earlier stages. There's no skipping stages. So someone at a higher stage, will understand what it is to be an early stage, because they can personally identify with it in their history. But someone at an early stage cannot relate to or empathize, or see through the set of eyes of later stages. They have no experience with it.

This is no different than a child doesn't not understand what it is to be an adult by reading about it. But once they are an adult, living as an adult, they do know what it is to be a child, because they experienced it, and it is part of themselves today. They "transcend but include" the beneficial stuff of those earlier stage, while discarding what no longer is needed.

When I read Romans 14, I see that model being demonstrated right there in Paul's instructions to the church. This might be difficult to explain if you're not familiar with Fowler's work, but I'll take a stab at it. In the earlier stages, those who need milk, using Paul's language, the meaning of the symbol, and the symbol itself are fused together. Without the symbol, they cannot see the meaning. To question the symbol, threatens the meaning. So when Paul talks about those who get "hung up" on days of the week that are all-important, he would be addressing those who are at Fowler's Stage 2 faith.

That also carries into Stage 3 faith, which is more your traditionalist views which Fowler calls Synthetic-Conventional. "This is the way of things, and how things are supposed to be done", my take on it. It's very much just settled into "this is the way we believe" style of living, and there is a great sense of meaning derived from the predictable nature of this. A great many people live their lives out at this stage.

When someone hits Stage 4, that's when they start to question everything. Doubt and conflict push through to larger perspectives. The meaning of the symbol at the stage undergoes a separation of sorts. One can look at the meaning of Holy Communion, and see the same meaning contained within Native Totem rituals, for instance (I think that was Fowler's example, actually). My view of this stage is where a lot of Neo-Atheists find themselves in the earlier stages of that stage. They're still deconstructing the symbol. But not everyone at the stage goes that path into Atheism, unless they need to for their own individual reasons.

At stage 5, and this is going somewhere , this is where having undergone this previous stage 4, there may be a reclaiming of the symbol and the meaning from the earlier stages, yet with a much deeper understanding of the nature of symbolic truth. The Christ, at stage 5, is seen as in all religions, in one form or another. And that there is a deeper truth in his own previous stages of faith that he had not seen. Buried underneath the perspectives of each of those stages, at that stage of development for the person in it. God was seen and felt, at each of those stages, even though the understanding of these were through limited perspectives.

And to just finish on Fowler's stages, the last stage, stage 6 is a true universalizing faith. Where one's whole being has been transformed by all these stages, to become a world-soul, my words. A Martin Luther King. A Ghandi. A Jesus, I'll add. That to me, is the pull of all faith, which is towards that. Not everyone wants to go that far on their personal paths. Very few do.

So all that in mind now.... when I hear Paul speak of these different stages of faith, I hear an ability to recognize in a younger faith, that literalism, yet with a compassionate understanding. I hear also an admonition to the younger, that as hard as it may be for them, to recognize that there are other ways that they don't yet realize that may appear to them at some point, and to not be so judgmental of what they can't see themselves.

However, one of the hidden traps in this, is that when we hear something that comes from a later developmental stage and don't understand it, we try to fit it into what we can relate to, which would be something we had experience in, namely an earlier stage. So we mistake a later stage, a stage beyond us, as something behind us. Just to add that, as that complicates matters. Hence, perhaps why Paul's best advice, is "who are we to judge another man's servant?" Grace is a sign of great maturity. Something that alludes us most of the time.


Sure, but with the co opting of Christianity by conservative politics, Christianity gets bent into topics like abortion, gay rights, immigration policies, etc. Again, what one reads in the Bible, reflects those values. I don't see any of those "Christian" issues, being Biblical myself. I find them a distraction that appeals to our other-ism, rather than love. The whole "True Believer" nonsense which is about cultural identity, not Christ.

Sorry for the length of this. I felt inspired to turn a few stones over. I look forward to seeing where this goes, as opposed to just focusing on differences.

I run into this at church. We have a new member and he is gung ho. He thinks I need to be handed a daily devotional. I am at a point now where the Bible is more in me than outside me. So I usually am in the Bible on a daily basis but that is more for recreation than need. However don't want to discourage him because a new Christian does need it.

 

[Muffled]

I think of it in terms of whether the teachings and doctrines are true or not. Why defend something that is untrue, no matter what it's domain, religious, political, cultural, pseudo-scientific, pseudo-philosophical.

I am reminded of the time my cousin showed me a picture of a fox. It turned out if you could look at it differently you could see Jesus. Sometimes the truth is like that. It can portray two very different pictures.

 

[Faithofchristian]

It is God's word but sometimes people have different interpretations of it. I asked my interrogators to look at what the bible says but they said "what the church teaches is all that counts." When you ask a JW to look at the scriptures they will simply ignore you because what they are taught is always right.

What the churches teaches is not all that counts..
What counts is what God has to say in his word.
I don't belong to any church or religious organizations..
They are all man made..
As it is written in
Romans 3:12--"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one"

That's because churches teach the tradition of man's and the teachings and doctrines of mans..

This is why The Lord Jesus Christ Condemns man's teachings and doctrines in Matthew 15:7-9.
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you have Jesus Christ himself condemning man's teachings and doctrines.

 

[metis]

I don't belong to any church or religious organizations..

Then you are actually violating what the Gospel says about the "church" as that word is used 109 times in the NT. If attending one wasn't important, then why is it mentioned so often?

That's because churches teach the tradition of man's and the teachings and doctrines of mans..

This is why The Lord Jesus Christ Condemns man's teachings and doctrines in Matthew 15:7-9.
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

Jesus "taught with authority", as did the apostles, so why would that supposedly be stopped? How would people learn about the Gospel? Which books would be used without a church selecting them?

Christianity, much like Judaism, was always mean to be a congregational experience, not just a personal one. The latter could all too easily devolved into "Me-ism".

 

[Faithofchristian]

Then you are actually violating what the Gospel says about the "church" as that word is used 109 times in the NT. If attending one wasn't important, then why is it mentioned so often?

Jesus "taught with authority", as did the apostles, so why would that supposedly be stopped? How would people learn about the Gospel? Which books would be used without a church selecting them?

Christianity, much like Judaism, was always mean to be a congregational experience, not just a personal one. The latter could all too easily devolved into "Me-ism".[/QUOTE\]

No doesn't matter.
The churches are man made religions..

Therefore I do not belong to no man made religions or man made churches.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Then you are actually violating what the Gospel says about the "church" as that word is used 109 times in the NT. If attending one wasn't important, then why is it mentioned so often?

Jesus "taught with authority", as did the apostles, so why would that supposedly be stopped? How would people learn about the Gospel? Which books would be used without a church selecting them?

Christianity, much like Judaism, was always mean to be a congregational experience, not just a personal one. The latter could all too easily devolved into "Me-ism".

I'm not violating nothing..
If you had read what The Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 18:20--"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

I'm one and the Holy Spirit of God is two and The Lord Jesus being three.
What else can a person ask for more than that..
Therefore no one has to belong to no man made religions or man made churches.

The Lord Jesus Christ Condemn man's teachings and doctrines in
Matthew 15:7-9,
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you have The Lord Jesus Christ himself condemning man's teachings and doctrines..
Now as to why I want to follow man's teachings and doctrines knowing that The Lord Jesus Christ Condemns man's teachings and doctrines in the churches.
Go Figure

 

[metis]

If you had read what The Lord Jesus Christ said in Matthew 18:20--"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them"... I'm one and the Holy Spirit of God is two and The Lord Jesus being three.

Nice try, but that simply doesn't work as Jesus' message was to the congregation that the Apostles formed, which is what "church" means.

The Lord Jesus Christ Condemn man's teachings and doctrines in
Matthew 15:7-9,
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

Then he must have condemned his own apostles since they were men and teaching others.

There you have The Lord Jesus Christ himself condemning man's teachings and doctrines..
Now as to why I want to follow man's teachings and doctrines knowing that The Lord Jesus Christ Condemns man's teachings and doctrines in the churches.
Go Figure

You cite the Bible, seemingly unaware of the simple fact that it was the Church that wrote and selected the books in your Bible. It was not the Bible that selected the Church but was the Church that wrote and selected the Bible, starting with the apostles.

Let me recommend you seek and find a church that is the closest to that which you believe, realizing that no collection of people is ever going to be "perfect". Heck, the apostles weren't "perfect" either, as the gospels rather clearly show. I certainly ain't perfect, you can't be perfect, so why should we expect any congregation, including even that of the apostles, to be perfect? Do you think you're so perfect that the others may taint you?

As I tell those that I'm teaching at church, "If you are looking for all of the hypocrites at church this morning, make sure you bring a mirror with you".

 

[Faithofchristian]

Nice try, but that simply doesn't work as Jesus' message was to the congregation that the Apostles formed, which is what "church" means.


Then he must have condemned his own apostles since they were men and teaching others.

You cite the Bible, seemingly unaware of the simple fact that it was the Church that wrote and selected the books in your Bible. It was not the Bible that selected the Church but was the Church that wrote and selected the Bible, starting with the apostles.

Let me recommend you seek and find a church that is the closest to that which you believe, realizing that no collection of people is ever going to be "perfect". Heck, the apostles weren't "perfect" either, as the gospels rather clearly show. I certainly ain't perfect, you can't be perfect, so why should we expect any congregation, including even that of the apostles, to be perfect? Do you think you're so perfect that the others may taint you?

As I tell those that I'm teaching at church, "If you are looking for all of the hypocrites at church this morning, make sure you bring a mirror with you".

Nice try though..
The true church of the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't come together until the tribulation.


At this time is when the great multitude of people and the 144,000 come together to make up the true church of God's.
These are those who stand up against the Antichrist ( Satan) during the tribulation.

Revelation 7:9-10,
9--"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb"

Therefore the 144,000 and the great multitude which no man was able to number are the true saints of the church of God's..
Which

 

[metis]

The true church of the Lord Jesus Christ doesn't come together until the tribulation.

Then apparently you don't believe Jesus when he said he would guide his Church until the end of time as he sent us the Holy Spirit as his promised guide. It seem you are believing in your own "gospel", not Jesus'.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Then apparently you don't believe Jesus when he said he would guide his Church until the end of time as he sent us the Holy Spirit as his promised guide. It seem you are believing in your own "gospel", not Jesus'.

Why course I believe what Jesus Christ said..
Seeing how every church is man made and follow the teachings of man's.
And how every church will claim to be the true church of Jesus Christ..

If you had read Jesus Christ book of Revelation
You would seen that the true church of Jesus Christ comes together during the tribulation...

When all other Christians are running to who they believe is the real Jesus Christ ..
But he's the Antichrist ( Satan) that's masquerading by deception deceiving the whole world into believing that he is the real Jesus Christ that is come to rapture them out..

But those Christians who have not been deceived by the masquerading by deception deceiving the whole world into believing that he is the real Jesus Christ..
Because in the churches christians are not taught who it is that comes first.

Then those Christians who have waited patiently for the real Jesus Christ to come, that have not been deceived...Then the real Jesus Christ shows up and catches people in the very act of worshipping the Antichrist (Satan)

Now those Christians are without an excuse...
All because those Christians chosen to listen to mans teachings and doctrines in the churches and not to the teachings of Jesus Christ..
Jesus Christ given his last Prophecy in his book of Revelation..
That he can not return until his last Prophecy happens first..
That when Jesus Christ last Prophecy happens brings the end to the tribulation..
And then immediately after the tribulation then the real Jesus Christ returns.
But not until his last Prophecy happens first.
So what good is the rapture going to do..
Seeing that Jesus Christ can not return until his last Prophecy happens first..which brings the end to the tribulation and then the return of Jesus Christ..

 

[metis]

Why course I believe what Jesus Christ said..
Seeing how every church is man made and follow the teachings of man's.
And how every church will claim to be the true church of Jesus Christ..

The above is an oxymoron, namely that one cannot accept Jesus' statement that he would guide the Church until the end of time and then in the same breath say that it's not the "true church" that he started and made that promise about.

And your abhorrence to "man's teachings" ignores the very simple fact that the apostles were such men and that they appointed others, and three centuries later this led to the Church's selection of the canon that you are using. Thus, the Bible is a collection of "man's teachings" based on their understanding of what Jesus' taught. You even cite the Book of Revelation even though that was written around six decades after Jesus was crucified by a "man" teaching, namely John.

 

[Muffled]

What the churches teaches is not all that counts..
What counts is what God has to say in his word.
I don't belong to any church or religious organizations..
They are all man made..
As it is written in
Romans 3:12--"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one"

That's because churches teach the tradition of man's and the teachings and doctrines of mans..

This is why The Lord Jesus Christ Condemns man's teachings and doctrines in Matthew 15:7-9.
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you have Jesus Christ himself condemning man's teachings and doctrines.

I don't believe the church falls under the category of none that doeth good. I do believe you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Have you asked Jesus what He wants you to do about church attendance? I had Him tell me to stay home a couple of mornings. In both instances church had been cancelled because of snow storms.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I don't believe the church falls under the category of none that doeth good. I do believe you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Have you asked Jesus what He wants you to do about church attendance? I had Him tell me to stay home a couple of mornings. In both instances church had been cancelled because of snow storms.

I don't care about belonging to a man made church that teaches man's teachings and doctrines in the churches.

Knowing that the Lord Jesus Christ Condemns man's teachings and doctrines in Matthew 15:7-9,
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you have Jesus Christ himself condemning man's teachings and doctrines..
So why would I want belong to any church that Jesus Christ Condemns man's teachings and doctrines...in the churches.

The Lord Jesus Christ also said..
"Where two or three are gathered in his name there he is in the midst..

So there's me and the Spirit of truth and Jesus Christ in the midst,..so there's 3