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Christian - Christ is the only way to salvation

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Aqualung, Aug 20, 2005.

  1. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Ditto, sir.

    Hey, the intro to your copyrighted NASB is wrong --- it's a translation, not an update. Where the KJV differs from the Bishop's Bible, the Bishop's Bible is wrong --- same for your NASB.

    Been there --- done that. O the joy of our salvation, eh?

    I'm lost on that one --- I don't watch Hockey. I'll communicate with almost anyone.

    Well, you're wrong there. For one thing, the High Priest knew that Jesus was the Messiah - (John 11:47-53). The only time He was accused of having a devil was when He spoke of His deity (John 7:20; 8:25).

    If you can't detect Love, Joy, Peace, Gentle, Meekness, Longsuffering, Faith, etc in the natural realm, you're a poor judge of character.

    And what specifically have "we" failed to obtain from God?

    What? YOU might envy Mother Theresa, but I don't.

    I'm not sure why that's so important to you. Do I detect something recently happening in your life that may have had something to do with someone you thought was saved, but turned out not to be? (None of my business, though --- feel free to say so.)

    Ditto --- (minus the fanfare).
     
  2. Jenyar

    Jenyar Member

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    You're bifurcating. Please answer the question again: Who is it that makes them count?

    How many priests were allowed into the Holy of holies, to intercede and make atonement for the community? And how many priests or elders were that priest (or priests) dependent on for interceding like this before God?

    You just said above that Jesus won't make it count if it's not done by a proper authority - the implication is that he will make it count if they are (that's what it means to give someone authority). If you can't be certain of their authority (i.e. ability) to decide whether an action counts or not - whether an ordinance is valid or a commandment has been properly followed - what make your priests and elders more authoritive than any other Christian on earth?
     
  3. Jenyar

    Jenyar Member

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    Thank you brother jim. This is why I insist that good works have no meritorious value - not in a Christian or in any other faith. So when I say "our actions either confirm or deny our faith", I don't mean specifically Christian faith, although it applies to Christians as well. Anybody's faith can be seen by the fruits it produces. But as Adam quickly found out, not every fruit that looks good to eat and "desireable for gaining wisdom" is necessarily considered so by God. We have to find out what He approves of as well.

    You say you believe that the fruits of the Spirit are not "detectable in the natural realm", but I don't agree, and I daresay neither would the apostles. Paul contrasts the fruit of the Spirit with the following:
    Gal. 4:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.​
    Now some of these, like envy and selfish ambition, are indeed "conditions of the heart" that may or may not be outwardly detectable, but others, like fits of rage, are certainly "detectable in the natural realm". But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. These qualities all bear fruit in the natural realm, and it's them that Jesus said would identify someone who follows him. That's why he commanded: "Produce fruit in keeping with repentance" (Matt. 3:8) and said "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock" (Matt. 7:24).

    And this is where might agree again: a good house on sand is no better than a bad house on sand. Our works - though intrinsically no better than any other person's, believer or not, Christian or not - only stand at all if they are built with Christ as their foundation, only if the tree itself is rooted in Christ. That's why false prophets - though their works might even have been miraculous, driving out demons and prophesying in Jesus' name - will still be told plainly "I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers": They weren't rooted in Christ, and so could never gain God's approval.

    Because the "trees" refer to the people themselves, you are right: it also means the proselytes. Jesus told the Pharisees "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad", which must refer to their disciples. But the same principle applies as above. If the Pharisees are a foundation of sand, their disciples will have their roots in sand, and their deeds will show it. So before someone listens to a "prophet", they should look at his works as well as the people who believed him to see whether they preached Christ, or themselves.
     
  4. brotherjim

    brotherjim Member

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    PtL, Jenyar; 2 Cor. 9:12.

    Jenyar, I'm going to shuffle your statements---hope that's okay.

    Ummmm.....since you are telling us your opinion of what Jesus said rather than giving us the Scripture, I'm left assuming that you are referring to Jesus saying, "By this will all men know you are My disciples, by your love one for the other" (Jn. 13:35).

    There are two possibilities implied here.

    First, if you ref. the verses prior to the above, and again the synonymous John 15:12-13, you should find that Jesus was referring to the required-by-God degree of unconditional Love whereby the Christian lays down their life for other Christians (or whatever you interpret "friends" to be). We have an example of this somewhat when the first disciples of the post-Jesus-in-the-flesh Apostles, liquidated their life's assets and laid all the proceeds at the feet of those Apostles.

    I think we will all be in agreement here, such a degree of Love is non-existant in the church today (in any case, I've never seen it in my 24 years w/ the Lord, so doubtless the world (". . . all men. . . .") has access to such an intended-by-God witness.

    Or, second (and having to build on the above), Jesus when saying "all men," was referring to how the world sees the Love that Christians have for each other, and they, those unbelievers in the world, will thus conclude that such are true Christians---if indeed such Love is ever again manifested by the church. But this does not mean that the Christian will necessarily know such Love to be genuine in either others or themselves. For, after all, many religious people in the world, like monks of Buddhism or any number of other religions, give away all their assets, commit their lives to acts of love---

    But surely the unity of Love among the 100,000+ Christian denominations and sects and non-denoms, proves to the world that Christianity is the one true--- (satirical, of course).
    --------------------

    Well, when I shuffled, I just erased the largest part of my post, that which addressed all of what you said before the above that I commented on.

    So I'll make it real short:

    Just as good works can be either the works of James 2's litmus test, or mere coincidence and simply of the flesh, so too can alleged Fruits of the Spirit be nothing more than feigned exercises of soulish flesh.

    Watching the Dahli Lama on TV the other night, he seemed to exemplify numerous Fruits of the Spirit. But since Fruits of the Spirit are just that, of God's Spirit and not man's soulish flesh, then we can knbow such was not the case, at least with Buddhists, for God's Spirit is only accessible by God's children, who are the born-again children via Christ's Blood and Faith and Name.

    Perhaps this different example above will better fare as an adjunct to my claim: genuine Fruits of the Spirit are not detectable in the natural realm.

    So I'll ask a second question---in addition to the similar first which is still unanswered here---how does the Christian know if the seeming Fruits of the Spirit they are manifesting, are actually that, from the Spirit, and not just so-called "well-meaning" exercises of soulish flesh, just as can be feigned by any human being dedicated to so doing??????????????

    brother jim
    [email protected]
     
  5. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    That is completely illogical. The reverse is not true, and you can't logically say it is.
     
  6. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Jesus makes proper-authority baptisms et al. count. Nobody else makes them count, and he doesn't make anything else count.

    Christ won't make a proper-authority baptism count if the person is not fit for the baptism, ie he has not repented of his sins and does not want to take the name of Christ upon himself. What makes them more authoritative is that if the person does do all that, it will count.
     
  7. Jenyar

    Jenyar Member

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    You're just imbedding the problem deeper by using the words "proper-authority". My question is who is the proper authority - Christ or men? It used to be men, since the high priest used to be a man, and Aaron and his sons (who still hold the only proper Aaronic priesthood - since it depended on genealogy) were all mortal men.

    You are in effect saying "Jesus makes the 'baptism-that-men-makes-count' count", hoping that nobody notices the internal contradiction.

    When the Levitical priests had the authority, their authority was final - God gave them that duty, and them alone. They decided whether people were guilty or innocent, whether they lived or died. They literally judges Israel's deeds, and made atonement for their sins. They had to do this day after day, year after year, generation after generation.

    Now we're getting closer. If a person is fit for baptism, he is considered fit by Jesus no matter who performs it - even if the person has to perform it by themselves (as a Muslim woman once had to). The person performing it cannot make it either valid or invalid, since it doesn't depend on them. They're just obeying Christ's command to baptise. (And of course there should be agreement in a church as to who is qualified, but it's a decision made among believers, as they are lead by the Spirit - not an institution).

    A Mormon told me that priesthood authority is lost when a person ceases to practice their faith righteously. Do the baptisms of all the people that were baptised by someone who lost his authority later, cease to be valid? I doubt it. There is no connection between the two - the connection is between Christ and the believer. Christ has the authority, and the believer's faith recognizes that authority.
     
  8. Jenyar

    Jenyar Member

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    1. We know that we have come to know him [Christ] if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar... (1 John 2:3)
    2. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (1 John 2:5)
    3. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. (1 John 3:10)
    4. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. (1 John 3:16)
    5. Let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth (1 John 3:18)
    6. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. (1 John 3:24)
    7. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God (1 John 4:2) *
    8. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood. (1 John 4:5)
    9. This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. This is love for God: to obey his commands. (1 John 5:2) **
    10. We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin (1 John 5:18) ***

    * This is the one who came by water and blood - Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. (1 John 5:6)
    And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever -- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. (John 14:16)

    ** 1 John 3:23
    And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

    *** 1 John 3:6
    No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

    Knowing Christ is an ancounter with God, not an encounter with man.
     
  9. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Christ is the aurthority. But he's very picky as to what he will make count.
    True, he considers them fit. But he doesn't think the baptism counts without a priest doing it.
    Actually, I asked this question not too long ago. IT goes like this. A priest is given the keys to the priesthood when . . . well, when he becomes a priest. Those keys are never taken away, but hes just not using them righteously. So if he baptised someone, the baptism would still count, becuase he still has the keys. But, he will certainly get his just deserts for using the keys unrighteously.
     
  10. brotherjim

    brotherjim Member

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    Jaynar, rather than waste everyone's time, and so as to not clog the thread with extensive quotes and rebuttals, I'll comment in general:

    Nothing you quoted answers either of my questions.

    You did point out a couple good passages that can be used as a witness against someone who is not walking with the one true God---my own personal favorite is 1 John 2:3-5---but you have not told us how a Christian who was once genuinely born-again, can now know if:

    1) the good works that are now coming forth from their life are indeed those referred to in such places as James 2 as being a necessary witness to the genuineness of their conversion (i.e., a result of God's Spirit and Laws supernaturally in/still in them)---as compared to it just being a coincidence that the person was once truly born-again, but is now just performing good works as an action of their fleshly soul, just as any so-called "well-meaning" person also does, and;

    2) their outward expressions of love and faith and meekness and joy and so forth, are the actual supernatural manifestations of God's Spirit, the Fruits of Gal. 5---or is just feigned via the fleshly soul like any pious, religious, self-disciplined person also expresses.

    (After all, even the heathen agapao love the "brethren" of their clicks/clubs/inner circles. And there are literally millions upon millions of religious people in this world who are not Christian, who outwardly sin far less than the masses of Christianity, and who pray more, who believe they are obeying some inner voice of God, who---)

    brother jim
    [email protected]
     
  11. Jenyar

    Jenyar Member

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    That brings you back to the original problem of how the keys could have been lost by the first Christians. What did the first apostles manage to do wrong, that Mormons are doing right? It's not righteousness, I can tell you that.
     
  12. Jenyar

    Jenyar Member

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    That's a question that might be a problem for someone whose faith depends on his deeds. "Am I good enough? Am I genuinely manifesting the Spirit, or is it wishful thinking? Are my acts of love supernatural or natural?" If you can doubt yourself like that, it's a warning sign that your faith is still in yourself, not in God. Would you doubt God like that, if you truly believed in Him? We might never know how God used us; we might doubt our use to Him, or question our obedience to his commands - and those doubts might motivate us to do more and try harder - but even a crystal clear conscience wouldn't justify us. "[size=-1]Therefore it does not depend on the one who wills, neither on the one who runs, but on God, who shows mercy." (Rom. 9:16).[/size]

    Jesus made no distinction between what good deeds look like before or after someone's conversion - after they had a genuine encounter with Him. He simply told the adulterous woman "Go now and leave your life of sin." All she needed to know in order to leave her life of sin is what sin was - not what a life without sin was. That's why the law remains to point out sin, and our conscience is our most valuable asset.

    A walk with Jesus doesn't take Jesus away, as if we now have to walk the path of suffering alone. We were called Christians because we follow Christ, and we will overcome if we persevere - not because we "succeed". Success is not our victory, it's Christ's victory. That's why we follow Him. Otherwise we might just as well follow Ghandi, Krishna or Mother Theresa.

    Exactly, our works have no eternal merit. It's not a clean conscience that justifies anyone. What did the Pharisee pray again? "God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get."
    Luke 18:13-14 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."​
    If you are still trying to gain favour with God apart from placing faith in Him, you will lose whatever you have acquired when you die. Doing good is what we were appointed for - it's simply our duty. Anything less than 100% is sin. An employee doesn't earn anything extra when he does what he's getting paid for. The Pharisees were experts at working overtime - time they did not have - and they ended up losing the little they did have to those in need of time.
    Rom. 9:30-31 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.​
     
  13. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    What the firts apostles managed to do wrong was confer more apostles. Eph. 2:20 states "And are built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the cheif corner stone." The apostle didn't pass along those keys. Which created some problems, because the only way certain guys a little "lower" on the chain can get their keys is from apostles. So they never got there's. Plus, complete apostasy of the priest caused God to just remove the authority. You were talking the apostasy of the individual.
     
  14. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    Paul prophesied of the apostasy when he was telling the Thessalonians of Christ's second coming.
    2 Thessalonians 2:3 says, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." The Thessalonians were in an unrest because they kept hearing that Christ was coming again soon. Paul lets them know to relax because the Church would fall away (apostasize) before he returns.

    Peter spoke of the restoration in Acts 3:20-21 saying, "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hat spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."

    So we have Paul saying there will be a falling away before the Second Coming and we have Peter saying there will be a restitution before the Second Coming.
     
  15. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    I don't see how that prophesies what you say it does. Can you explain it, and maybe give other references?
     
  16. nutshell

    nutshell Well-Known Member

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    The restitution Peter speaks of is the restoration of the gospel. Peter says that Christ is in Heaven and won't return until the restoration of the gospel takes place.
     
  17. brotherjim

    brotherjim Member

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    Whoever,

    Still unanswered; how can a Christian who was once genuinely born-again, now know if:

    1) the good works that are now coming forth from their life are indeed those referred to in such places as James 2 as being a necessary witness to the genuineness of their conversion (i.e., a result of God's Spirit and Laws supernaturally in/still in them)---as compared to it just being a coincidence that the person was once truly born-again, but is now just performing good works as an action of their fleshly soul, just as any so-called "well-meaning" person also does, and;

    2) their outward expressions of love and faith and meekness and joy and so forth, are the actual supernatural manifestations of God's Spirit, the Fruits of Gal. 5---or is just feigned via the fleshly soul like any pious, religious, self-disciplined person also expresses.

    (After all, even the heathen agapao love the "brethren" of their clicks/clubs/inner circles. And there are literally millions upon millions of religious people in this world who are not Christian, who outwardly sin far less than the masses of Christianity, and who pray more, who believe they are obeying some inner voice of God, who---)

    Surely God has provided a way for us to know, no?!

    brother jim
    [email protected]
     
  18. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    I totally disagree with you. Ephesians 2:8,9 states that we are saved by grace and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not of works lest nay man should boast. This mean we can not be saved by being a good person, works does not yield salvation.

    Romans 3:23 states That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

    In Romans 10:9,10 it talks about confession with the your mouth the Lord Jesus and thou shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. With the heart, man believeth unto righteous and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    John 14:6, Jesus states "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me.

    You are right that all will be judged one day by God, but the Bible speaks of two judgements, one of the righteous and one of the unrighteous.

    Take it for what it's worth, but there is no ambiguity according to biblical scripture regarding salvation. :)
     
  19. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    That's because no matter how hard you try, there's no way you will ever be good enough on your own. You just can't live a perfect life, and that is the only way you will ever be able to save youself. Grace is that fact that even though you aren't good enough, you will still be able to be saved. But this is a far cry from just being able to walk around and do whatever you want, and still be saved.
    That's why you need grace, and I'm not denying that you need it.
     
  20. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    The gospel does not need to be restored. To the extent people fall away from the faith is based on their own free will, not because the gospel needs to be restored. And Paul was also referring to the coming of the "antichrist" in his reference to "son of perdition". :)
     
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