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Christian - Christ is the only way to salvation

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Aqualung, Aug 20, 2005.

  1. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    As I see it, God has broken time up into 7 Dispensations:

    Innocence ... Conscience ... Human Government ... Promise ... Law ... Grace ... Kingdom

    Each dispensation starts with a set of rules that God wants us to adhere to.

    Each dispensation fails and ends in a specific judgement of God.

    Currently, we are in the 6th Dispensation ... Grace ... which started when the veil of the Temple was rent in twain ... and will end with the Tribulation.

    I said all that to say this:

    The dispensation of the Millennial Kingdom will end at what is called the Great White Throne Judgement. That is where the unsaved will stand before Christ and be consigned to the Lake of Fire.

    We Christians, who will be Raptured before the Tribulation, will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ, or, as some like to call it, the Bema Seat Judgement.
     
  2. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Yeah, I realised that after I had read your post again. :bonk: But people need authority to baptise. Jesus never said that just anybody could baptise people. He only gave that to vertain people.
    It was for the same reason. It was to fulfill all righteousness. We can't even get close to fulfilling all rgihteousness if we don't get baptised. (also, his baptism was to show us what we need to do to return to live with our father in heaven.)
    And what authority was that? The aaronic priesthood that he held.
    Not those who have the name of the devil on their forhead, but for the most part, everyone will, at some time or another, choose to be baptised.
     
  3. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    Brother I was asking when did Jesus ever say these things about himself during his ministry. Where in the scriptures in the red letter section of my bible which is to my understanding his words did he say these things.

    {Quote=av1611]Genesis 22:8 = AND ABRAHAM SAID, MY SON, GOD WILL PROVIDE HIMSELF A LAMB...(Note the play on words.)[/QUOTE] The Sestigens state in the bottom notes that Abraham is talking about his son his birth son and not Jesus.

    That is not very clear and he does not clearly say animal sacrifice. When it is a known historical fact in that time certain Gnostic religions offered human as well as animal sacrifices. It is a general statement and can not be implied. Let us not try to leave the context of the phrase.

    Again these are not Jesus's words where did he make these statements because I can not find them in my bible.
     
  4. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Was this not clear enough? Do not make me issue warnings for something so trivial.
    :149:
     
  5. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    :biglaugh: He probably just didn't see it. Mujahid - I set up a thread in discuss individual beleifs --> abrahamic beleifs --> christianity --> Christianity in general.
     
  6. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    Again where did Jesus or God ever give them permission to alter the word when Jesus states that no tone jot or one tittle shall in no wise be removed from the law till all be fulfilled.

    How can it be technically, he either is or he isn't the firstborn son but the bible states that Isaac was the only son in Genesis 22:2 but how can he be the only son you have to be first born is this not correct

    But the bible says the covenant is with the first born Genesis 17:10-14 in terms of the circumcision


    I am refering to the prophecy given by Isaiah about the riders my Christian brethern tell me the one riding the *** in Jesus. Now who is the one riding the camel. The one who according to the Christians comes after Jesus is the Holy Ghost and I ask when did he ever ride a camel. Now if my Christian brothers are wrong please inform me so I may inform them. Also you must know it is the major opinion of the Christian scholars(setugins0

    Isn't it true the statement that Isaac is the only son a contradiction because inorder to be the only son you must be the first born. And I am sorry there are many contradictions in the bible. Otherwise you as Christians would all agree to what is contained in the bible.

    But if God superintended it why are all the manuscripts different why could not inspire the same words from all these men. Did he not have control over their pens.
    Give me the verse where God states the bible is the Word of God.

    So if the protestants according to your statement were not inspired after 96. ad and the oldest known scriptures are dated to 350 years after Jesus how do Christians today write these bibles ie. KJV,NWT,NLB,NKJ,DV,RV if the scriptures are based of stuff that as you said is not inspired date wise

    Where does Jesus say in the bible that he is going to die for our sins.

    The verse does not state thine only son of Abraham and Sarah it says thine only son speaking to Abraham

    My bible says and I quote " the testimony of both the Jewish community and the Christian church throughtout history has been that Moses wrote the Book of Exodus.pg 100 kjv study guide version. Is my bible lying to me.


    If I write a story and autobiography perhaps it is always in first person. No one who claims authorship of something writes in third person unless someone else is writing it for him. When other people in the bible write things that claim ownership they never use third person. Likewise if Mathew wrote Mathew then in 9:9 of Mathew who wrote this for him and why does he not give credit to the author

    Satan is a great imitator. He will actually convince people that he is god during the Tribulation.[/QUOTE]
    How can he imitate a story from someone who came 10,000 years before Christ it is the opposite since the story of Horus, Osiris, and many other people came before this one in time. It is only logical to say that this story imitates them since they precede Jesus
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Let's take this to the thread mentioned in Post 65, and we'll talk more after work tonight. Okay?
     
  8. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    I sincerely apologize I am new to this forum I signed up a while back and am still trying to learn everything. I honestly did not see that but now I know and I will follow in accordance to the rules if some one could instruct me on possibley started a thread myself I will. Again please forgive me and Insha Allah I will try a start fresh with my own thread and I wish you could have one called Religious Discussion debate sounds to much like confrontion but anyways I look forward to remaining with you guy and I will move on to the next post

    Thanks again,

    May you and Allah forgive me for my error
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Mujahid,

    I'm sorry, but I couldn't even begin to respond to so many questions with any degree of completeness. It obviously took you only a matter of seconds to type out each of these questions. I would take me anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour to respond to each one. Besides, several of them could only be answered by a Catholic or Protestant, and I am neither one. If you would like to discuss them one at a time, why don't you begin with the one you believe is most important and, if I know the answer, I'll be happy to share it with you.

    Kathryn
     
  10. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    To me, I see many religions that are called Christian, yet they all have one common error. They try to add something we do to what He has already done for us. In Romans 5, salvation is called a gift or free gift several times in verses 16-18. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are saved by GRACE, which is undeserved, unmerited favor, through faith, UNTO good works. The pattern set up is that we hear the good news, we believe it, and we accept the free gift, baptism and good works following as a result. We are, at the moment we believe(John 5:24), made new creatures(II Cor. 5:17) and adopted into God's family as children of light(Romans 8:15, I Thessalonians 5:5). We have ALL been baptized by one spirit into the body of Christ (I Cor. 12:13).

    To add anything else we do besides accepting the free gift by believing in, or trusting in what God's word says Jesus did for us on the cross, his blood shed for remission of our sins, makes our salvation of 'works' and thus we could 'boast'. But we are saved by grace through faith LEST any man should boast. Note in verse 10 we are saved UNTO good works, that is, now that Christ is living in us, through the Holy Spirit, and we are new creatures, the works will follow as a result of our salvation, not the cause. That's why James says...You SAY you have faith...well I will SHOW you my faith by my works. Thus a faith without works is not faith. Man judges the outside, and may see our works but God knows the heart, only he knows who truly places their trust in Christ.

    To add membership to a particular church, our good works, or our keeping of certain rituals, sacraments, or of us 'holding out faithful' (its the preservation of the saints, not the perseverence), (God keeps us, not the other way around), to simple acceptance, or believing in, or on, or trusting in or on what Christ had done, as HE paid the way, He is Holy, He is Our Redeemer, He is Lord of Lord and King of Kings, Haleluia, Praise His Wonderful Name!!! Praise the Lord, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, Our Advocate, The Propitiation for our sins, THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD, Glory to his name! Amen and Amen. And add ANYTHING we do is a false doctrine and grave error! All Glory, ALL Power MUST go to him and him alone, nothing to us!

    Religion is this: man earning his way to heaven. Impossible. Christianity is this: God giving salvation as a TOTALY FREE GIFT!!! Beware that you are not 'self-righteous' trying to ADD to his work on the cross ANYTHING you do besides hearing, believing, receiving, period. No church membership, whether it is ANY denomintion will save you, baptism does not save you, sacraments don't save you, good works don't save you, rituals and ceremonies do not save you, ONLY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST CAN SAVE YOU, NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS!!!!

    BAPTISM? Why does it say he who believes AND is baptized??? (when in MANY more verses it says only believe) Because, if one truly believes, and IS SAVED, baptism is our outward profession of that faith, it is a RESULT, as good works are a result, if we are truly saved, we will WANT to be baptized to confess Christ to the world, we will WANT to do good works, and go to church, AS A RESULT, OF OUR BEING NEW CREATURES IN HIM. Because HE is now in us, working out HIS plan, for HIS glory, God be praised forevermore!

    Read John 3:5 AND 6 in CONTEXT: ...except a man be born of water and the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the FLESH is FLESH; and that which is born of the SPIRIT is SPIRIT.

    Here he says except a man be born of water=FLESH, AND the spirit=SPIRIT. See how the 2nd verse puts the first verse into context???

    Now read this: John 5:24: Verily, verily I say unto you, He that HEARETH my word, and BELIEVETH on him that sent ME, HATH everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME into condemnation, but IS past from death to life.

    Did you hear his word? Did you believe? When do you HAVE everlasting life? WHEN YOU BELIEVE, YOU -----H A V E-----HAVE----- H A V E !!! RIGHT NOW, Everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME into condemnation. YOU ARE past from DEATH to LIFE!!! How sure was Jesus of this? (double sure-verily verily or truly truly).

    jOHN 6:47: Verily, Verily, I say unto you, He that BELIEVETH on me hath everlasting life.

    The moment you believe, you HAVE everlasting life, period, truly, truly!!!

    Do not be fooled by any 'other' man-made additions for salvation, trust in what the Bible says, that Jesus shed his blood for your sins, if you accept that great gift, you HAVE everlasting life.
     
  11. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    That's because no matter how hard we try, we'll never be good enough to enter into god's kingdom. It doesn't mean we can go around doing whatever we want and still get the same treatment as those who do good. Oops. I have to go. Sorry I didn't think of that before I started answering. :bonk:
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Yes it does, because if you truly get saved, your " want to's " change --- (2 Corinthians 5:17).
     
  13. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Would you agree, then, that if you don't make an effort to change, you never were sincere in wanting to?
     
  14. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    I Cor. 3:11-13: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, whic is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. if any man's work abide which he hat built thereupon, HE SHALL RECEIVE A REWARD. If any man's work shall be burned, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS; BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO AS BY FIRE. (by the skin of his teeth) parenthesis mine.

    II Cor. 5:10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Chirst; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    These verses are to believers, for rewards. Some will have great reward, some will have less, some will have none, but still be saved. It does make a difference how you live once you are saved. Be ye Holy for I am Holy. Our rewards and position in the millenial kingdom, whether we receive any of the five crowns spoken of in the new testament, depend on our works done after we are saved. He who does little can expect little, but will still be saved. God will wipe away all tears from our eyes, but I don't want to stand before him empty handed. As we yield to the Holy Spirit, and do not quench or grieve him, but obey him, we will begin to produce fruit in our lives, treasure in Heaven. A christian can quench the Spirit and end up with a miserable existence here and loss there, or can obey and have abundant life here and treasure there. It is all in how much we submit to God and allow him to work out these things in us, for it is not us, but Him who works it out as we trust and obey.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    No effort required --- just go to 'autopilot' and do what comes natur...er...spiritually.
     
  16. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    So you are automatically just thoughtful, considerate, kind, etc. all the time -- now that you're saved, huh? Gone are the days when you lose your temper. Gone are the times you pass judgement on others. You've never done anything wrong since the moment that happened? Autopilot. Man, am I ever glad you're saved, because if you weren't, I shudder to think how you'd treat people whose beliefs are different from yours.
     
  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Actually, when the natural man flares up, and I give in to it, then I'm "kicking against the pricks" as the Bible puts it - (Acts 9:5).

    The spiritual side of me needs to be nurtured in the Word of God so it can grow.

    Did you see my post on the tripartite nature of man?
     
  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I see. So sometimes autopilot breaks down? And what if you chose not to allow the spiritual side of yourself to be nutured? Or is that also something you have no control over?

    I believe so.
     
  19. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Any pilot can tell you that if you switch the autopilot off, and the plane goes to the wrong destination, it's not because the autopilot broke down.

    If I chose not to nurture the spiritual side of me, I will remain a babe in Christ.
     
  20. Jenyar

    Jenyar Member

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    Jesus also never said that only some could baptise - it's a deduction we made ourselves. The apostles seemed only concerned with keeping the faith intact - so much so that they didn't baptise much themselves; they left it to the elders. When that faith is intact, the baptism is valid. If it's not intact, the baptism makes no more difference than taking a bath - even if it were done by Melchizedek himself. I suggest you read a little about the Jewish understanding of baptism here, since John would have depended on it.

    We can't even get close to fulfill righteousness even if we are baptised, so it's hardly an argument for baptism. Jesus' baptism brought two worlds together - the physical and the spiritual, the old and the new; John's baptism by water and God's baptism by fire. It was an act of reconciliation - also called God's righteousness - the touchstone of all faith in God, before and after. We aren't baptised in the Jordan just because Jesus was, are we? Because we're not trying to faithfully repeat what Jesus did to try and get the same results, we're just confirming what he did.

    And yet it wasn't enough, was it? Like Hebrews says: "If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood ... why was there still need for another priest to comeĀ—one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?"
    Acts 19:4-6 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.​
    Paul was not of any priesthood (he was of the tribe of Benjamin), and yet he dismissed the authority of John's baptism before that of Christ's. Yet Jesus never baptised anyone himself. Clearly this doesn't have to do with people conferring authority physically. Even some priests who had valid Jewish priesthoods realized their own authority was lacking:
    Acts 19:13-15 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. (One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"​
    That's a great statement of faith, but it's not one I find very reasonable considering what Revelation tells us. According to it, everyone who are alive receives the mark of the beast - i.e. everyone who are not already "dead in Christ", as signified by baptism. If they were not baptised at the time of judgement, they were not baptised, and that's it. "Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment" (Heb. 9:27). In the same principle by which you read "repent and be baptised" consecutively, we should read "die and face judgement". If by the time we have to face judgement Christ does not recognize us, even though we can say "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?", there is only condemnation left. A baptism will not help you if Jesus does not.
     
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