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Christian - Christ is the only way to salvation

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Aqualung, Aug 20, 2005.

  1. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    I must apologize katzpur but I was trying to space out your quote and some of my words were included in your quotes from the above post. Please read through your quote and you will see my questions Again I apologize for my ignorance on posting
     
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    He is the author of salvation because God gave Him this power. He spoke on behalf of His Father because He was expressly authorized to do so. Something is only plagurism when the source is ignored or not given the credit. Jesus Christ declined all of the power and glory for His sacrifice. He insisted that it be the Father's alone. He was the sacrificial Lamb. He did nothing except what His Father asked. Even when He prayed to His Father in the Garden of Gethsemane, terrified of what the future held, He said, "Not my will, but thine be done."

    Sure. Go ahead. I'll answer your questions to the best of my ability.

    Kathryn
     
  3. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Mujahid - If you post something and you find out that it was wrong, then click on edit. It's located in the upper right hand corner of any post you have done. Like for the one where Katzpur's quotes got mixed up with your talking, it's because you didn't end the quotes. Remember, you do that by typing in [/quote]. So, if you want to change that in the last post, click edit and then add the [/quote] in.
     
  4. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    When did Jesus ever say he was to die as the plan of salvation or he was the sacrificial Lamb and what I mean is not that he spoke on behalf of God but I mean if God is the author of salvation and the only savior as stated in Isaiah 43:10 how can people say Jesus is the author of confusion. And why does God need a sacrifice as he states in Hosea 6:6 that he does not. When does He, Jesus say God gave him through his sacrifice the power of salvation.

    As for the questions:

    Why was the original King James which was published in 1611 which according to most Christians is the inspired word of God have 80 books and then in 1885 the Bishop of Canteburry took those books out leaving only 66. Who gave him the authority to change God's word?

    Which son of Abraham was born first and who was the covenant made with?

    When did the Holy Ghost ever ride a camel? Isaiah 21:7?

    Why are there so many contradictions in the bible? In terms of places occurences which are supposed to be significant in terms of dogma.

    Who wrote the bible or compiled all the books?

    Why did it take Protestants 1500 years to disect from Catholics and when they did where the 73 books they have in their bible not inspired by God correctly?

    Why would an innocent man die for the sins of the guilty when the bible say in Ezichiel 23 that every man is accountable for his own sins.

    How can Isaac be the only son?

    Did Matthew write Matthew and did Moses write the first 5 books and if he did how did he write his own obituary and why are these books in third person?

    Why is the Egyptian Sun God Osiris story the same as Jesus?

    Why historically is the Creation of Christianity credited to Emperor Constantine who was a sun worshipper?

    Why is God's name not listed as the father of Jesus in the two Geneologies of Jesus and why do they contradict each other. And how can a man who only Father according to Christians was God you have 66 other guys listed as a part of his Geneology?

    Why does Paul, who was a Gentile, contradict the teaches of Jesus by say ing all those under the law are under a curse?

    Why when God says he does not give prophethood to sinners do prophets such as Lot and Noah and others commit sins such as incest and adultery

    Is God Eternal and All powerful and if he is why do Christians say he rested after creating the heavens and the earth.

    Why are the oldest known manuscripts which are in Latin and Greek dated 300 years after Jesus and some of the people who are responsible never met him and no documentation is taken from any of his disciples.

    Why is the Gospel of Barnabus which is a historical archaelogical find not accepted by Christians when the scrolls were found buried with him and they are written in the original language that Jesus spoke and the Jesus testifies of him being a man of God and to recieve him when he comes to you not accepted by the church.

    Why is the common man not allowed to see these manuscripts that the Vatican used to create the bible so we would be able to check to see if there translations are correct.

    Why do some Christians believe in a trinity and some believe Jesus is just the son of God and some belief Jesus is God and they all reading the same book. How come they can not agree and the texts keep changing from year to year author to author. Why are verses taken out and added in?

    If there are contradictions can the bible be 100% absolutely the true word of God. And do not lies cause confusion and we all know who is the author of that.

    These are some of the 100's maybe 1000's of questions. If you would like me to go through all the contradictions I can

    Thanks for your help and if you can not answer them ask your teachers in religion maybe they can shed light on it for me so we can both find out these answers together
     
  5. Mujahid Mohammed

    Mujahid Mohammed Well-Known Member

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    . So, if you want to change that in the last post, click edit and then add the [/quote] in.[/QUOTE]



    Thank you so much Aqualung I am gonna try it now
     
  6. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Psalm 40:7 = THEN SAID I [Jesus], LO, I COME: IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME.

    Hebrews 10:7 = THEN SAID I, LO, I COME...TO DO THY WILL, O GOD.

    John 1:29 = THE NEXT DAY JOHN SEETH JESUS COMING UNTO HIM, AND SAITH, BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD, WHICH TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD.

    Genesis 22:8 = AND ABRAHAM SAID, MY SON, GOD WILL PROVIDE HIMSELF A LAMB...(Note the play on words.)

    He's talking about animal sacrifices here. He'd rather have mercy than a sacrifice. In other words, it's better not to do something bad, than to do it and be forgiven.

    John 17:2 = AND THOU HAST GIVEN HIM POWER OVER ALL FLESH, THAT HE SHOULD GIVE ETERNAL LIFE TO AS MANY AS THOU HAST GIVEN HIM.
     
  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    God did in Psalm 12:6-7. To refine silver, you heat it until it turns liquid, then all the impurities rise to the top, and are sloughed off. The "impurities" of the 14 books of the Apocrypha were sloughed off.

    Technically, the first son was Ishmael, born to Hagar and Abram in Genesis 16; but God changed Abram's name to Abraham in Genesis 17, and it was through Sarah and Abraham that Isaac was born.

    The covenant was made with Isaac - (Genesis 17:19).

    I don't see that in that verse, nor am I familiar with the Holy Ghost riding a camel.

    There are none. A contradiction is only a contradiction if one statement proves the other statement false. Otherwise, it's called a paradox.

    Various men wrote it over a period of time, but God superintended the work. He Himself calls it the Word of God, not the Words of Men.

    Protestants protested against various writs of the Catholic Church. They had their "days in court" so to speak, and exist today only in name.

    Their bible is not inspired by God. Neither is my King James Bible. Inspiration, per se, ended in 96 AD.

    Every man IS accountable for his own sins; but Jesus took the penalty upon Himself willingly. Technically it is known as the Vicarious Sacrifice.

    He is the only son of Abraham and Sarah. Ishmael was from Abram and Hagar.

    Yes

    He didn't. Joshua tacked it on as an epilogue.

    That was his (and Luke's) own personal style of writing.

    Satan is a great imitator. He will actually convince people that he is god during the Tribulation.
     
  8. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Just as a general reminder, this is the "Same Faith Debates" section. If a person from another religion is wanting to ask questions of that religion, please use the "discussion" or "debates" area. Thanks in advance!
     
  9. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    It's not ... Jesus gets the credit for that. We were first called Christians in Antioch in 42 AD --- (Acts 11:26).

    Jesus' geneologies are from the human line. If God was listed in there, it would say something like: and so-and-so begat God, who begat Jesus. This clearly doesn't make sense, and is even blasphemous.

    The two different lines come from David, who had Solomon (Joseph's line) and Nathan (Joseph's mother's line).

    Because Jesus came to Earth as a man, thus He was born of a woman.

    There's no contradiction here. Paul makes it clear that those who decide to "stay back" and reside within the confines of the Law, will not be saved. Only those who "move ahead" and reside under the confines of He who fulfilled the Law will be saved.

    You have to convince a person he is lost before you can get him saved.

    No one is without sin, and that would include ALL the prophets, disciples, and apostles.

    By rested it doesn't mean He sat down and recuperated. It means He finished His work. He chose that particular word because He used the 6 days of Creation and the 7th day of rest as an example that we should also rest on the Sabbath day.


    Many of these manuscripts were not used by the common people. They knew them to be fake, and as such, didn't touch them. As a result, they lasted longer because they weren't being passed around. Later, archaeologists found these, and now we have all these marginal notes that say junk like: a better manuscript says this ... or the original manuscript says that.

    God didn't want it in the Authorized Bible for some reason.

    For one thing, they're too fragile to be displayed in public. For another thing, I believe the Vatican is off-limits to the public - (but I'm not sure). But take my word for it --- they're not correct --- they follow a corrupted line.

    If you give a Bible to two people who have never read it before, have them read it, then ask just basic questions, you'll get two different answers. BUT, the more times those two people read it, the more and more they will start agreeing with each other.

    People argue over the Bible because they either haven't read all of it, or have read it only once or twice.

    What would surprise me, is if two people have read it 10 times each, and both still disagree with what it says on major points.

    The NIV and other mis-translations are copyrighted material. That means they must change the words by law, whether they need changed or not.

    The love of money is at the root of this.

    No

    Yes

    Um ... that's okay ... it's getting late.

    My pleasure, Mujahid, I hope this has helps.
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    NOW you tell me ... LOL ... (just kidding). I got writer's cramp!
     
  11. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Oh, no! I'd do some massage therapy for you if I could... :(

    I'm glad you replied to Mujahid, though. It was very helpful, and I learned some new things, too!
     
  12. Jenyar

    Jenyar Member

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    This is where your belief that everybody will attain the same resurrection becomes problematic. Jesus clearly said, "those who have done good will rise to life, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned". The Bible never calls God's condemnation a different degree of glory. In fact, it was such a fearful prospect that even God felt the need to intervene by sending his own Son to be condemned in our place - to be sin in sin's place so that "whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (John 3:18).

    God promised only one kingdom for those who share in Christ's resurrection. Jesus says in John 14:2: "In my Father's house there are many mansions". Every person's body is a mansion (Gr. mone = "dwelling") of God. Jesus uses the same word a little later:
    John 14:23 "[font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.[/font][/font][/font]​
    [font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva] God will live with that person and that person will live with the Father and the Son, no matter what kind of "glory" he has. That brings me to the earlier point. What kind of glory will the resurrected believer have according to the Bible? The Bible clearly tells us "[/font][/font][/font]all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", so that whatever glory we could have apart from our works must come from God. As the John Gill exposition says: "[font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]he saints are all loved with the same love, bought with the same price, justified with the same righteousness, and are equally the sons of God, their glory will be the same". Compare this to what the ancient Jewish rabbis taught:[/font][/font]
    R. Isaack (Zohar to Deut.): "how many (Nyrwdm le Nyrwdm) , "mansions upon mansions", are there for the righteous in that world? and the uppermost mansion of them all is the love of their Lord.''[font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]
    ...and:
    [/font]
    "in the world to come every righteous man shall have ([font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva]rwdm), "a mansion", to himself.''[/font][/font]​
    [font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva][font=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Geneva] Along with this information, we have the words of Paul:[/font][/font]
    Rom. 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs — heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
    2 Cor. 3:18... And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.​
    So, the crucial distinction to make, is: who are the chidren of God. Are they the children of Adam, merely by virtue of our common descent, or the children of God's promise? If Christ is the "yes" to all God's promises (2 Cor. 1:20), even his promise of glory, and Christ is our "hope of glory" (Col. 1:27), how do you suppose someone can "get that much more" by continuing to do what Israel did for the thousands of years before Christ came? Are God's greatest promises now suddenly conditional in Christ, and not certain anymore?

    You miss the point entirely. I know not one Christian who would not have himself baptized as Jesus commanded. The issue isn't whether baptism is necessary or not, but whether it has anything to do with any human priesthood.

    John's baptism was of repentance (Matt. 3:11). Jesus was without sin, so his baptism must have been for a different reason than anybody else's. And surely enough, he says it must be done to "fulfill all righteousness"; and as John predicted, the real baptism became visible for the first time: that of the Holy Spirit. So much so that later, when Paul found people who knew only John's baptism, he had to tell them about the Holy Spirit (Acts 19:1-5), and "On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus". Baptism with water refers to an outward sign, and it can be done very validly and with just as much authority as John the baptist had - with as much authority as Aaron or Melchizedek themselves had - and it still wouldn't save anyone. It's Jesus who saves, and the Spirit is our assurance of that salvation (Eph. 1:14).

    In fact, why are we baptised at all, if we can never "fulfill all righteousness" by a religious ceremony? Paul tells us:
    We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.​
    Now I ask you, does this baptism refer to all people - are everyone baptised into Christ's death and will everyone "live a new life"? Will everyone escape condemnation and the second death? And can someone who has been buried with Jesus expect a different resurrection and a different glory - a different Spirit - than He received? The Bible answers all these questions.

    Keep in mind that Jesus' intention was never to build a house divided in itself. There may be different mansions in that house, like there now are different bodies that are all equally "the temple of God" on earth, but he includes everyone given to him in one body:
    I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me (John 17:22-23).
    Christ emphasized the unity of those He came to save, and though it was meant for everyone, He knew not everyone would accept it before final judgement was pronounced. That's why it is still delayed (2 Pet. 3:15) - but it will not be delayed forever. Mormons create a division between those who accept (who share the same fate as those who don't), those who accept it more, and those who accept it most.
     
  13. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Jesus also clearly said that we will not be judged by our works, but by what comes out of our hearts. When asked by one group of people if they would go to Heaven, Jesus said "the politicians and harlots will get to Heaven before you do. . ."

    How do we get past these contradictions? Jesus says he is 'the light and the way'. When you ask someone to follow you, you will say "come this way". Jesus showed us 'the way', as a living example of how God wants us to live our lives. And that is by loving all equally, the good, the bad and the ugly. And by healing the sick and feeding the poor. “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; ..."

    Jesus is the Way, Tao is the Way, and there is Buddha's Way,
    the way, is the way, is the way. They are all the same 'way' coming from different points of origin.


     
  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    You didn't finish that verse, EH. Here it is in it's entirety:

    John 14:6 = JESUS SAITH UNTO HIM, I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.

    Here's how Peter put it:

    Acts 4:12 = NEITHER IS THERE SALVATION IN ANY OTHER: FOR THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY ME MUST BE SAVED.

    And again:

    John 10:1 = VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, HE THAT ENTERETH NOT BY THE DOOR INTO THE SHEEPFOLD, BUT CLIMBETH UP SOME OTHER WAY, THE SAME IS A THIEF AND A ROBBER.

    There are no "different points of origin", Jesus is the door - period.
     
  15. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    The door to what exactly, and what is He salvation from?
     
  16. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    REMINDER:

    Only the members of the religion listed in the title of the thread are allowed to debate in a thread in the Same Faith Debates Forum.
    If you are not of that religion, please start a new thread in General Religious Debates.

    It would be helpful to know what religion you are if you would list your religion in your profile.
    This would avoid much confusion.

    Thank you.
     
  17. Malus 12:9

    Malus 12:9 Temporarily Deactive.

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    Please accept my humble apologies.
     
  18. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    I'm going to start a thread in the religios descussion, christianity, christianity in general are, especially for Mujahid Mohammed. The thread has gotten off track, and I'd like to keep it on that topic. Thank you in advance, Majuhid and AV1611 for taking your discussion there.
     
  19. Jenyar

    Jenyar Member

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    The key word here is "righteousness" - being justified before God. When sin isn't taken into account, and faith is counted as righteousness, then a person stands before God blameless. Jesus made this possible. But he was also making sure that people knew exactly what their chances were without him:
    Matt. 5:20
    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.​
    Now you may have some idea why Peter asked: "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" (1 Peter 4:18).
    1 Tim. 1:15
    Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.​
    Jesus saves those who put their trust in Him from a death-like existence without God.
     
  20. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    First of all, it's not the same resurection. IT's a resurection to glory, but not the same glory. And as for rising to life or to condemnation, this speaks of Jesus's millenial reign. The bad will be punished during his millenial reign, but then they will rise to the lowest degree of glory. The truely bad people are the only ones who will be cut off from god forever, as spoken of in rev. Those with the mark of the devil on their forhead will be the ones who suffer the eternal cutting off, the second spiritual death.

    His father's house is just what he uses to describe that general place where people go after the millenium, when people are given their rewards.
     
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