Christian: Can Christians Be Unified?

[Linus]

How can a group become unified without leadership?

You're right. It can't. Not in any case. But we do have a form of leadership in the New Testament. Elders (bishops) and deacons are authorized leadership roles (1 Timothy and Titus), but their "power", as outlined by those books, only extends to the realm of the local church. Like I said, Christ is the Head, the leader. He should be the one to lead the Universal church. If we follow Him and follow Him truthfully, there won't be a need for earthly leaders to do this.

 

[Scott1]

You're right. It can't. Not in any case. But we do have a form of leadership in the New Testament. Elders (bishops) and deacons are authorized leadership roles (1 Timothy and Titus)

Authorized by whom... and how were those leaders appointed?

Which faith has an unbroken line back to those leaders?

but their "power", as outlined by those books, only extends to the realm of the local church.

Not correct Biblically or historically..... (Paul collections for Jerusalem, the obvious need for cohesion of the Bishops in defending heresy :Judaizers/Gnostics etc.).

 

[Katzpur]

How can we begin to even begin the discussion for an attempt at agreement without leadership to direct the discussion?

How can a group become unified without leadership?

Please, don't answer these questions with the RCC in mind.... answer me generally... how could it be done?

I agree fully (particularly since you threw in the part about the RCC ). You know that's one thing Catholics and Latter-day Saints have in common. We both recognize the absolute need for authority. If Jesus Christ had thought the scriptures were sufficient, He wouldn't have bothered entrusting His Church to Peter's leadership.

 

[Pilgrim of this Reality]

Why must a leader be needed? If everyone acted as Jesus acted (and not what someone may Think he did.) than He would be the leader of the unified church.

Of course, the main problem is we think in a hierachical way. We think that someone must lead a movement, for example, when the movement itself doesnt need leadership because the people have the same unified goal. The fact such movements can continue when a leader of it dies etc, shows they dont need a leader. The trick is getting the same goal into the minds of people. Anything can be achieved if people are of the same mind. This lesson is learned with the story of the Tower of Babel: ""Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. " Genesis 11:6

 

[johnnys4life]

I don't know, Pilgrim. When MLK Jr. died, people started to totally throw out his peaceful resistance ideas, and to follow the much more violent, rather reverse racist Malcom X instead. People are always looking for a leader.

 

[Linus]

Authorized by whom... and how were those leaders appointed?

The Christians in a local church have the complete authority to elect its own elders and deacons as long as they are qualified for the position. In Acts 6 we have an example of this very thing happening. (in this particular case, overseeing the daily distribution of food). There is no mention of these men going out and working with other Chruch leaders to do such things.

Which faith has an unbroken line back to those leaders?

Let me guess...

Not correct Biblically or historically..... (Paul collections for Jerusalem, the obvious need for cohesion of the Bishops in defending heresy :Judaizers/Gnostics etc.).

Cohesion, yes. The elders and deacons should most definitely be in agreeance and work together, but this, in my opinion, does not necessitate any sort of centralized council of ordinance givers. As I mentioned, the Acts 6 passage does not show these leaders in any official form of council or organized, managed group to accomplish their tasks.

 

[brotherjim]

It would seem, then, that this is a Catch 22.

I see many personal opinions regarding hierarchy, what Jesus meant by His prayer for oneness, etc., and yet it is impossible to reach a correct doctrine of these things unless the heart has been purified wherefore it no longer has reason for self-justification of remaining sins such as rebellion to authority, pride and arrogance, divers lusts, etc. Unless the heart is pure, it will pervert the intentions of God and the Scriptures which support them.

But then, since these remaining-in-the-Christian idols of the heart are loved more than the pure motives of God, the stewards of them are not willing that such impurities be removed whereby they will then see clearly. And if we cannot see clearly what it truly means to be one as the Father and Son are One, unity is not possible insofar as how most or all here seem to be attempting to find answer.

John 3:19-20 clearly shows how man loves his darknesses more than he does the Light; what is not so clear is that this speaks also of Christian man--I'm truly sorrowed to say.

[email protected]


(The answer, btw, is contained within the supernatural possibility of godly, unconditional Love despite doctrinal and organizational differences--not to homogenize and be under one universal manmade church; tensions must exist--we are commanded only to not boast about our divisions.)

 

[Katzpur]

The Christians in a local church have the complete authority to elect its own elders and deacons as long as they are qualified for the position. In Acts 6 we have an example of this very thing happening. (in this particular case, overseeing the daily distribution of food). There is no mention of these men going out and working with other Chruch leaders to do such things.

Wow, I totally disagree! To begin with, Hebrews 5:4 specifically states (with regards to authority) that "no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron." Aaron was ordained by Moses, and Moses had been given his authority by God himself. Serving others in an unofficial capacity is one thing, but deacons and elders are priesthood callings, and one's "qualifications" to hold these callings is totally beside the point. Jesus said, (in John 15:16), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you and ordained you." One absolutely must be ordained by someone who has the authority to do so, and that authority must be traceable back to Jesus himself.

Cohesion, yes. The elders and deacons should most definitely be in agreeance and work together, but this, in my opinion, does not necessitate any sort of centralized council of ordinance givers. As I mentioned, the Acts 6 passage does not show these leaders in any official form of council or organized, managed group to accomplish their tasks.

Huh? Again, the scriptures teach otherwise. In Ephesians 4:11-15, there is clear evidence that a "centralized council of ordinance givers" was established by Jesus Christ and that this council was to govern the affairs of the entire Church, not just until the original group of them died, but as long as the Church existed.

These verses state the following: "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ."

A Quorum of twelve Apostles was intended to exist as long as it took for all to "come in the unity of the faith." Since we're getting farther from that goal instead of closer to it, we still need that same organization.

Kathryn

 

[brotherjim]

P.S. I.e., divisions are one thing, divisiveness another.

bj

 

[Katzpur]

Cohesion, yes. The elders and deacons should most definitely be in agreeance and work together, but this, in my opinion, does not necessitate any sort of centralized council of ordinance givers.

How can you guarantee, then, that the interpretation of doctrines will not evolve over a period of time? If one group interprets certain teachings one way and another groups interprets them differently, you've lost your cohesion. Before long, it's hard to know which, if any, of the groups have a correct understanding of the original doctrines. I think that's something you've got to consider. The fact that one group of people can manage to get along with each other and even accomplish a lot of good things is never ultimately going to bring unity to the Church.

 

[roli]

I agree fully (particularly since you threw in the part about the RCC ). You know that's one thing Catholics and Latter-day Saints have in common. We both recognize the absolute need for authority. If Jesus Christ had thought the scriptures were sufficient, He wouldn't have bothered entrusting His Church to Peter's leadership.

The problem is Peter like other men are dangerous vehicles to transport the message of the Gospel even Peter who denied Jesus 3 times was not the best example,because He refused to trust in Jesus even after He walked with Him,experienced miracles etc.not
Jesus says you think that by the scriptures you have eternal life, wrong,many only studied the scriptures and negalected to come to him for eternal lifeJohn 5;39
It is Jesus that leads we are followers and only can lead by His spirit in us,outside this we lead in vain.

HEBREWS 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The word of God IS Jesus,in the flesh, the word of God only needed to be spoken (preached)from man,not man preaching their own word, but God's word spoken thru leaders who lived ate and breathed the word of God
Today we have leaders who live ,breathe and eat their own teachings and teach others


God is looking for leaders,as a matter of fact regardless of what faith you pursue,you, in essence become a leader, some are passive and some are zealous,some are neutral,regardless of the level of your position or pursuit,you have a faith and people are influenced in one way or another.
Most faith followers are inclined to represent their faith,it's standards, and practices as a good and faithful steward.
This would describe a leader,one who leads by example.
Jesus however new there would be false teachers,doctrine,miracles,and signs and wonders that would cause even the elect to be led away.
God insituted and delegated leaders,who had a heart after God and believed the truth of the death burial and resurrection of Jesus,Christ not to mention the councel of God ,sin law righteousness, holiness judgement repentence and hell
We all inherently need to be led,instructed,disciplined etc,some just prefer to have that on a continual basis,enjoying to be spoon fed and hand held all their life.

My point in all this is the fact that the leaders of many denominations, organizations,religious groups etc, use and abuse their leadership and authority to usurp power and control over the followers,creating their own religions and turning the truth of God and His word into doctrines of devils and following man made rules,traditions,rituals and heretical teaching,
These manipulating techniques give men an empowering platform giving them even greater position to excercise dictaorship and their egotistical and selfish endeavors.
They will however bow their knees,for every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord
Leaders who are promoting and fulfilling their own agendas through the covering of any religious organization wil be exposed,for the day and light of JESUS Christ will expose it,but the destruction of many lifes will follow first.
Not only that,but others who are looking for the truth and answers to life ,why? am I here,who? am I where?am I going when I die, etc, are led astray and discouraged at the gate from entering any religious group,becuase of what has been done in the name of religion and God.
We need to know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth to be a leader and to follow those who profess to be leaders

I have too many friends that are in such orgainizations,who elevate the leaders as god like in nature, and are controlled to the point of excommunicating family and loved ones because a particular rule in the orgainization was broke.
Namely that of exposing flase teaching ,questioning the practices,not performing a works for the orgainizationetc,
I know of groups that are actually led to believe that if they do not do certain services for that orgainization,they will risk loosing their salvation,and or souls.
They are told to actually leave and disassociate their relations with their immediate families or those are causing discension or they themself will be excommunicated.
But when the leadership is exalted above the people like that,the world will be led astray and truth will become extinct

 

[rivenrock]

I don't think the doctrine/teachings of all Christian churches can be unified, but I think we could be more unified in the sense of:
a) working together for good
I am not a member of the Salvation Army, but I wouldn't hesitate to support them in their work for the poor and homeless. They have excellent networks and programs already set up and do just wonderful work. I think it's crazy to 'reinvent the wheel' when money and time can be so much better spent contributing to something already set up. Similarly I know when my church wanted to help people who had been hit by natural disaster overseas, they used the (hopefully this name is right) Catholic Relief Fund to do so, for the same reason - they already had an efficient set-up in place and recreating that would have just meant wasted resources.

b) not being contentious with each other
I find the bickering that goes on disheartening. Christianity should make us more understanding, not less. Even very different interpretations of doctrine should not lead to fighting, but to tolerance of other's free will to believe as they choose. There is enough evil in the world (NOT a reference to other religions) to deal with - seeing other churches as the enemy just divides us as a force for good, and what we could achieve together is lost.

 

[Katzpur]

The problem is Peter like other men are dangerous vehicles to transport the message of the Gospel even Peter who denied Jesus 3 times was not the best example,because He refused to trust in Jesus even after He walked with Him,experienced miracles etc.

I never intended to imply that Peter was perfect. He was, like all of us, a fallible human being. People are under the impression that God's prophets (i.e. Moses, Abraham, Noah, Peter, etc.) are supposed to be absolutely blameless in all aspects of their lives. That's just not the case. Jesus knew Peter perfectly and still chose him to direct His Church in His absence. How could the gospel message have possibly been spread after Christ's death without mere, imperfect men?

My point in all this is the fact that the leaders of many denominations, organizations, religious groups etc, use and abuse their leadership and authority to usurp power and control over the followers,creating their own religions and turning the truth of God and His word into doctrines of devils and following man made rules, traditions, rituals and heretical teaching. These manipulating techniques give men an empowering platform giving them even greater position to excercise dictaorship and their egotistical and selfish endeavors. They will however bow their knees,for every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Leaders who are promoting and fulfilling their own agendas through the covering of any religious organization wil be exposed, for the day and light of JESUS Christ will expose it, but the destruction of many lifes will follow first.

I couldn't agree more.

I have too many friends that are in such orgainizations, who elevate the leaders as god like in nature, and are controlled to the point of excommunicating family and loved ones because a particular rule in the orgainization was broke.

Well, I don't know for sure (though I do have a hunch) which organization/ you may be referring to. I, too, find the effects this kind of leadership has on people to be tragic, and I know that there are leaders like those you have described. All I'm saying is that to say that because some leaders abuse the authority the have (or think they have) is not sufficient reason to decry the need for leadership. That's sort of like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

 

[Silvanus]

I don't think the original message in the Gospel was that Peter would direct some universal Church and be some kind of first-hand leader. That sounds awefully like an alteration to suite a certain "Church." I generally discard it as a fanciful edition to this Church's NT. Peter would be the last person Christ would desire to lead his mission into the world. The historical evidence is that there was no unified early Christian church.

Peter was executed quite early on, he didn't even have time to lead a church. Where is this leadership located? Where is the evidence he actually did this? In the book of Acts? nope.

 

[michel]

I don't think the doctrine/teachings of all Christian churches can be unified, but I think we could be more unified in the sense of:
a) working together for good
I am not a member of the Salvation Army, but I wouldn't hesitate to support them in their work for the poor and homeless. They have excellent networks and programs already set up and do just wonderful work. I think it's crazy to 'reinvent the wheel' when money and time can be so much better spent contributing to something already set up. Similarly I know when my church wanted to help people who had been hit by natural disaster overseas, they used the (hopefully this name is right) Catholic Relief Fund to do so, for the same reason - they already had an efficient set-up in place and recreating that would have just meant wasted resources.

b) not being contentious with each other
I find the bickering that goes on disheartening. Christianity should make us more understanding, not less. Even very different interpretations of doctrine should not lead to fighting, but to tolerance of other's free will to believe as they choose. There is enough evil in the world (NOT a reference to other religions) to deal with - seeing other churches as the enemy just divides us as a force for good, and what we could achieve together is lost.

Rivenrock, I can't find anything I that doesn't sound good in that reply of yours; I couldn't agree more about the bickering - it's such a waste of energy. I'm feeling fruballacious!

 

[true blood]

Historically, no, Christians cannot be unified. Christianity was born in a time of political chaos with little opportunity for any kind of formal organization. Once it did gain recognition it rapidly began to organize, nominate, and hold councils, mainly for political reasons. But then it was shattered by a split between the East and the West. Formations of the Orthodox in the East and the Roman Catholic in the West. Later a protest against the Roman Catholic brought about the Protestant. In turn, the Protestant multiplied into hundreds of denominations. However, in more recent times, there have been movements toward unification. The World Council of Churches was organized at Amsterdam in 1948. But it seems that in any process of unifiying religion, people will sacrifice adherence to doctrine for organizational unity.

 

[may]

The problem is, being sinners is not justification for disunity. The fact that you don't WANT unity does not mean that Christ did not want unity.... it's hard to miss the clear examples in the Bible that show the early Christian community in Acts to be a singular group... a group that did not tolerate dissention or heresy.... a group that appointed leaders who taught ONE Gospel, one that THEY approved.
My point is, Karen, you continue to use a personal approach towards Christianity... which is fine if we are talking about your personal prayers and devotions, but history has shown clearly that the Christian faith is about discipleship, which implies obedience.... not to our own PERSONAL agenda, but to the faith.... a faith which calls us to evangelize the world.... a task that is quite impossible unless we are unified.

Scott

true, and also impossible if Gods spirit is not directing things.

 

[James the Persian]

I have to agree with Linus that there is absolutely no need for an overarching authority over the Church - indeed while any one group demands that this is a necessity there will be no unity. You only have to look at the history of my own Church vis a vis Roman Catholicism to see this is true. It is without doubt the claims to universal authority of the papacy that have caused the greatest stumbling block to our attempts at reunification.

Now, I think Linus and I would disagree on just how local a local church is (I suspect he means a parish, whereas I'd certainly not go smaller than a diocese and probably not smaller than a Patriarchate), but in principal what he says is true. More importantly, it works.

The Orthodox Church is often misunderstood in the west to be a group or family of churches because we only have local leadership, many different local churches (Greek, Russian, Romanian, Serbian, etc.) with no overall leader, but I can go to any jurisdiction and find the self-same beliefs and practices, albeit expressed in a different culture. We have existed like this for the last 2000 years and, even though there have been Schisms with the RCs and the Oriental Orthodox, we have remained remarkably united - all without an earthly leader.

In my opinion, nothing is likely to be more dangerous to the cause of Christian unity than one group claiming the right to rule over the rest. Christian heirarchs are called to be servants not masters, and what matters is unity in the faith, not organisational unity under a leader.

James

 

[may]

many are unaware that God has already set up a goverment that is capable of uniting the world most people do not recgonize this heavenly rulership that God has set up . however ,God will not tolarate those who refuse to recgonize his sovereignty and the goverment that he has set up (psalm 2;9) You(the son jesus christ) will break them with an iron scepter,As though a potter’s vessel you will dash them to pieces. whether they realize it or not the nations are on a march that will lead to a collision course with God

They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty(revelation 16;14)the nations and their devisive ways will be put out of existence.this will pave the way for Gods goverment to go about its work unhindered Gods goverment will bring about true unity

And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: "Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths." For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore(isaiah 2;2-4)

But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother(galations 4;26)

so my (Gods)word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it(isaiah 55;11)

​

 

[magnolia]

God's word is not for private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) So there is only one way that God intended scripture to be interpreted.
He also tells us to judge righteously (John 7:24) not by what we ourselves think but according to God's word.
2 Thessalonians 3:14-16 tells us to admonish our fellow Christians and show them how they should live according to the Bible.
God tells believers to separate themselves from any Christian who is willfully not walking according to the word of God (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

God leaves very little of his word up to us to figure out. Most of it is very plain. However, many Christians CHOOSE to ignore or twist teaching that is otherwise obvious. They believe the Bible is God's word but fit it to their flesh.
If a believer shows another that their way is wrong and it is spelled out to them in God's word and they choose to disobey it God commands us to separate ourselves from them.
Much of Christianity is lukewarm (hence the church in Revelation) and would rather "love" each other and overlook the errorful way Christians are walking today. This is complete contradiction to what God tells us to do. There will never be unity until Jesus comes back to rule with an iron rod. Until then, Christians will turn the other way and let their fellow Christians (whom they are responsible to to ensure a walk upright with God) continue in sin.

Any one who claims Jesus as his saviour (through grace) is a child of God, but there will never be DOCTRINAL unity amongst Christians.