1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christian: Can Christians Be Unified?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by johnnys4life, Apr 20, 2005.

  1. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,135
    Ratings:
    +154
    So apparently the new Pope says that Christianity should be unified. Do you agree? Do you think this is possible? What would that entail?

    I think we should be, but I don't think it's possible in a global sense. People love to disagree with each other, and sometimes it's NECESSARY to disagree with other people in the church if they are heading the wrong direction, and that's why there are always church splits.

    The only unity I see within Christianity is that we all believe in Christ, but, even then, we can't even agree on whether or not he is God, whether or not what he said was true or just figurative, or even that it was written down right. And some Christians pick and choose what they believe out of the rest of the Bible as well. How could anything ever unify us?
     
  2. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2004
    Messages:
    1,881
    Ratings:
    +104
    There are many who profess to believe in Christ,and somehow think because of their belief they are in unity with other Christians but even the devil believes and shutters.
    Unless one is born of the spirit he will not see the kingdom,therefore be unified with God
    The question is," what is it in society that people want to unify themselves with,each other,organizations, certain movements,etc,etc,
    There is only one spirit that should and must unify us and that is the spirit of God, which is the spirit of truth,anything outside the spirit of God is counterfeit.
    God is spirit and HE must be worshipped in spirit and truth
    John 14 :16-17 Iwill give you a counselorthe spirit of truth,the world can not accept him because it neither sees him or knows him...but you know him for he lives with you and will be in you
     
  3. Pilgrim of this Reality

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    81
    Ratings:
    +13
    Until the idea of religion is discarded and a Christian is who a person is, not what a person does or believes, there will not be unity. There are far too many man made creeds to allow such unity. Humanity has always agreed to disagree, and these created creeds only emphasize this.

    Not even if God would write the "how to" in the sky would religions be unified. He already has told us how to achieve unity: the NT
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,232
    Ratings:
    +5,923
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    I think that religion (i.e. the Church that Jesus Christ personally established) is necessary, but I fully agree with you that the condition of one's heart is more important than the specifics of what he believes. The scriptures are much, much more clear as to how a Christian must behave than they are as to what a Christian must believe. Since I don't personally accept the 4th and 5th century creeds as inspired, I agree wholeheartedly with what you have to say concerning them.

    On the other hand, if we could achieve unity through the New Testament alone, we wouldn't have over 30,000 different Christian denominations today. One denomination interprets the scriptures one way and another denomination interprets them another way. Christ built His Church "on a foundation of Prophets and Apostes," and Paul said that this organization should remain in place "until we all come into the unity of faith." Without such a foundation, he said we'd be "as children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine." It seems obvious to me that he knew what he was talking about.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132
    Absolutely, but not under the leadership of the Catholic church. :)


    Possible? Yes. Probable? No. There are too many divisions and doctrines and dogmas out there. Too much pride. People aren't always willing to give up the beliefs that they have held for so long.
     
  6. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    Who would lead this unified "Church"?
     
  7. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132
    SOGFPP,
    We haven't discussed any Catholic/Protestant issues in a while :). It's good to talk to you about it again. Now on to your question...

    Tell me why does it needs a leader in the first place. If the answers to our questions come from God, we won't need an earthly leader. In other words, Christ is the head of the Church.

    Ephesians 1:22-23 - And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

    Does this answer your question?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,232
    Ratings:
    +5,923
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Why does the Church need a leader? Because we are apparently not capable of coming to any kind of agreement as to even the most basic doctrines by relying on the scriptures alone! I think we've more than proven that over the past two millenia. Of course Christ is the head of the Church He established; that goes without saying. But when He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, it was for a purpose. His Church needs an earthly leader, someone with whom He can communicate His will -- a person of His choosing. He would never have expected us to get along using the Bible as our only guide. I'm not putting down the Bible, mind you, but it's only a book! If you were going into battle against a very powerful and devious enemy, and could have your choice of (1) having access to an enormous library of books on military strategi or (2) the expertise of a living, breathing 5-star general, which would you choose? With one of God's personally authorized servants (like Peter) leading the Church, you've got both the library and the general.
     
  9. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    Christ is and always will be the head of the Church..... one head and ONE body....

    .... but as you've seen from this forum, "Christians" believe a vast array of doctrine:
    many don't believe in the Trinity, many don't believe in the divinity of Christ, many believe that some humans are predestined by God for hell.... :eek:

    Do you honestly believe this glob of various faiths is what Jesus intended?
     
  10. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,135
    Ratings:
    +154
    No, I don't believe it's what Christ intended at all. But we have free will, free to mess things up as much as we can.
     
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    Free to mess things up.... free to sin..... :confused: ... so it's ok?
     
  12. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132
    Not at all. Such is the point of this thread. Once we are all unified, there probably won't be a need for such kinds of leadership. If we are all in such an agreeance as to have every christian unified across the entire world, chances are that we would al have enough knowledge in that case to guide ourselves. I hope I'm being clear.
     
  13. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,135
    Ratings:
    +154
    Wow you couldn't have got me more wrong if you tried. No, it's not okay. But we do have free will, and the fact is we don't WANT to be unified. It seems better to us to have our own little group, our own little church full of people who think just like us, and everyone else except us is wrong. Like, just for example, I went to the SDA church for a while and they actually believe that everyone who worships on Sunday has taken the mark of the beast and can't be saved.

    I'm not saying that's right, not at all, the Bible is pretty clear that that's a sinful way of thinking. The endless disputes over doctrine, the splits...In fact it's pretty specific about that, but I'm not sure where the verse is I'm thinking of. But then on the other hand, would you like to be a Unitarian instead and say that everyone is unified even if then the pastor is afraid to talk about anything that might divide us, and church has become just a social club?

    In my opinion, we will never be unified until we truly seek God with all our hearts, and he teaches us the truth in everything, and we have the courage to stick with it. In other words, maybe in the next life.
     
  14. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,135
    Ratings:
    +154
    There are so many different answers to that, I can't tell you what all Christians think. I can only tell you what I believe based upon what I've learned.

    Why did Jesus ask God for help? Help in what? If what you're referring to is the verse where he said, "Father, if it's possible may this cup be taken from me, nevertheless not my will but yours be done" that's pretty simple. Jesus was God, and God made human - mortal, you follow? He never died before, and he was afraid of the unknown. Because he was fully God AND fully human, he could be afraid. He could feel everything that we feel, which I think is just excellent.

    Second, why did he come down from God status to human status, because we were screwing things up down here. God had given us the law, but we couldn't seem to follow it. Nobody was sinless, not one. Legally, we all deserved to die and go to hell. Because we didn't do what was right. And just like a husband who's wife cheats on him, God had the right to divorce us. But instead of destroying us, the Father, in his mercy, gave his son in our place. In the old testament it was called a scapegoat, people offered animals for thier sins. But Jesus was the FINAL sacrifice so that animals needn't be sacrificed anymore. That's my opinion anyway. And you know, he did it because he made us, he loved us, and he gave everything.

    Why did he have human characteristics, while IMHO that is the best part. He came down and suffered for us. He didn't want to be just some God up there far removed from humanity who sits on his nice fluffy cloud and has no idea what we're really going through. And he HAD to suffer, because he was taking our punishment, so what good would that have done, if he couldn't feel it the way we would?

    As for the cross, I can't tell you except that it was a way of dying publicly, a very painful way.
     
  15. CaptainXeroid

    CaptainXeroid Following Christ

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    4,782
    Ratings:
    +755
    I don't believe Christ 'picked the cross to be holy' I think Christians made the cross holy in memory of Christ's sacrifice.

    I think that Christian unity with the New Testament as a guide is the ideal. Like others have said, there are so many 'man-made' differences between and among Catholics and Protestants and the various denominations of each therein that such unity would be difficult.

    I guess the first and best step would be for those of us who call ourselves Christians, or followers of Christ, no matter our connection to organized religion, to read the New Testament and seek to live as Christ taught that we should. :162:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,135
    Ratings:
    +154
  17. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    How can we begin to even begin the discussion for an attempt at agreement without leadership to direct the discussion?

    How can a group become unified without leadership?

    Please, don't answer these questions with the RCC in mind.... answer me generally... how could it be done?
     
  18. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +952
    The problem is, being sinners is not justification for disunity. The fact that you don't WANT unity does not mean that Christ did not want unity.... it's hard to miss the clear examples in the Bible that show the early Christian community in Acts to be a singular group... a group that did not tolerate dissention or heresy.... a group that appointed leaders who taught ONE Gospel, one that THEY approved.
    My point is, Karen, you continue to use a personal approach towards Christianity... which is fine if we are talking about your personal prayers and devotions, but history has shown clearly that the Christian faith is about discipleship, which implies obedience.... not to our own PERSONAL agenda, but to the faith.... a faith which calls us to evangelize the world.... a task that is quite impossible unless we are unified.

    Scott
     
  19. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,135
    Ratings:
    +154
    Obedience to the church or obedience to God? And what if the church is flying in the face of God's purposes and laws, should you stick with it anyway?

    I never said I personally don't want Christians to be unified. Of course I do, that would be great if we could be all in one accord, supporting each other in doing the RIGHT things. But not at the cost of my principles. Never at that price. Why? Because I want to do what's right in the eyes of God, not men.

    And I'm just saying, I don't think we ever will be unified in this life. It's a good thing to want it, Jesus was right in praying for it, and it would've happened if we'd all just listened to God the way we should. But we DON'T. Other people have other reasons for not wanting to be unified. Whether it be political issues, doctrine, or just not wanting to submit to the church's authority because they feel the church is too corrupt (which is my reason). And in order for unity to happen, we would all have to agree on what the Bible says, and who will? That's the price of religious freedom. We are free to dissent, and so we do, all of us, all the time. God alone could keep us togethor, but how when on the whole we don't even know him? When we as Christians rarely pray, and have no idea what the Bible actually says? Did you know more than 80% of us haven't even read the whole Bible? I haven't even read the whole thing yet, I don't think. And there really isn't any excuse for that, so I'm not even going to defend it.

    The closest we could come to unity is like u and me, agree to disagree.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. johnnys4life

    johnnys4life Pro-life Mommy

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,135
    Ratings:
    +154
    There's only one way, and it ain't pretty.
     
Loading...