Christian Bible context only: the baptisms of John and Jesus

[sooda]

I

I agree, but how does that relate to what He means by “water,” when He talks about His baptism?

Purification rite - Types of purification rites ...
https://www.britannica.com/topic/purification-rite/Types-of-purification-rites
Types of purification rites Classification of purification rites. Various kinds of avoidances and abstentions represent... Rite for purifying a cured leper in ancient Judaism. The Navajo sweat-emetic rite. The Navajo sweat-emetic rite is part of most major Navajo ceremonials... The Zoroastrian ...

 

[Jim]

I think now that what Jesus means by “water” when He talks about His baptism, is the Holy Spirit.

 

[usfan]

Imo, the passages about baptism.. especially the quote from John, reveals that water baptism is a symbol of the spiritual reality.. the 'fire' of Holy Spirit baptism. It is that reality that has Power and meaning, in the Christian's life, not the symbol.

 

[leov]

NOTE: This is for anyone, Christian or not, who agrees to argue only from Christian Bibles. Interpretations, and literal or figurative can be argued, but no debates about historicity or authorship.

In the Bible stories about Jesus, it looks to me like in his time there is a popular practice that in English translations is called “baptism.” It looks to me like a symbol of cleansing for various purposes. One of those purposes is to prepare for some event. The baptisms might normally be done by priests, but they can also be done by prophets, and John is a prophet in popular thinking. He is traveling around, baptizing people in preparation for the mission of Jesus.

It looks to me like the water in the baptism of Jesus is the water that He mentions to the woman at the well.

John 4:14 “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Somehow the disciples have the idea that everyone who wants to follow Jesus needs to be baptized with physical water in the way that is currently popular, and Jesus has no objection to that.

I don’t see any reason in any of that to think that baptism with physical water is a requirement for following Jesus, or that God has rules about when and how to do it.

baptism of John was not just a mikva. inducing obe for a glimpse of spiritual world, making path to God straight, direct. says it was done for repentance i.e. changing mind.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It looks to me like the baptism of Jesus is about some kind of personal transformation that’s somehow analogous to a physical cleansing after being made unclean, maybe like a washing away of sins. His water of life cleanses us in some way that enables us to enter into the Kingdom that he has been telling us about. He agrees for His Jewish followers to practice the Jewish baptism customs of His time, which apparently includes baptizing people who decide to follow Him, but I don’t see any reason to think that He would want that to be imposed on all of His gentile followers. However that may be, I don’t see any rules from Him about when and how to do it.

Forgiveness transforms.

Jewish cleansing rituals are not explained anywhere in the canon, however we have glimpses of something like them in the canon. The Jordan is famous in an older book where there is a story of a war criminal general named Naaman who is the general of Assyria, a very horrible country that kidnaps Hebrew children and raids villages and pillages them. It is this story of Elishah and Naaman that John the Baptist alludes to by choosing the Jordan.

Naaman is transformed by forgiveness. The cleansing of his skin is a sideline and not the main point. An enemy becomes an ally. The same goes for Zacheus, Peter, the sons of Thunder and most everyone in Jesus retinue. This is the power of the baptism.

Naaman comes to see Elisha to beg for a miraculous cure for his personal skin malady. He brings no one with him and seeks to help no one but himself, but he's prepared to pay handsomely. To be cleansed Elisha instead of accepting payment tells him he must wash seven times in the filthy Jordan river. This sets the stage for John's baptism. Naaman is violent, and he is the worst of all gentiles and from the worst of all countries. He is odious in every way, but he is cleansed and not only that but is permitted to serve the Lord even while he bows with his master to his master's idol. Now centuries later we have a new story of John the Baptist shouting and cursing at the good Pharisees who come to see him teach. He treats them like they are Gahazi, and its as though he purposely chooses the Jordon just to do so!

We have three of the four major characters reenacted in the baptism story of Jesus: Jesus plays Elishah. John plays the part of Elijah. Who is Naaman? Naaman is everyman, the unregenerated. Naaman shouldn't be helped by this prophet. He should be sent packing! He ought to be cursed, but instead its Gahazi (the good Hebrew boy and servant of the prophet) who is cursed merely for accepting a gift from Naaman. Gahazi receives a leprosy, probably Naaman's leprosy. He is thereafter driven away and no longer allowed near the temple. The story of the baptism of Jesus is a restatement of the gospels major theme the first shall be last and the last shall be first. It is about an expanded covenant to the Romans and to everyone in the world.

 

[Terry Sampson]

I think now that what Jesus means by “water” when He talks about His baptism, is the Holy Spirit.

Jeremiah 2:13 - [Thus says the LORD] "For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, the fountain of living waters, to hew for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns that can hold no water."
Jeremiah 17:13 - "O LORD, the hope of Israel, all who forsake You will be put to shame. Those who turn away on earth will be written down, because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even the LORD."

My comment: Where the English says "LORD", the Hebrew says "YVWH" [often transliterated "Yahweh"], which Jews often--if not always--replace with "HaShem" ["The Name"].

John 4
4 Now [Jesus] had to go through Samaria.
5 So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph.
6 Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about noon.
7 When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, “Will you give me a drink?”
8 (His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)
9 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”
11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?
12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
15 The woman said to him, “Sir, give me this water so that I won’t get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water.”

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.
16 “They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;
17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”

Revelation 21
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”
6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.

Revelation 22
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
2 down the middle of the great street of the city.

My comment: I was taught early in life that "living water" refers to "flowing/running water" as opposed to standing water in a well or lake.

 

[Terry Sampson]

P.S. to my Post #26:

Jeremiah 17
5 Thus says the LORD,
“Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind
And makes flesh his strength,
And whose heart turns away from the LORD.
6 “For he will be like a bush in the desert
And will not see when prosperity comes,
But will live in stony wastes in the wilderness,
A land of salt without inhabitant.
7 “Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD
And whose trust is the LORD.
8 “For he will be like a tree planted by the water,
That extends its roots by a stream
And will not fear when the heat comes;
But its leaves will be green,
And it will not be anxious in a year of drought
Nor cease to yield fruit."

 

[Road Less Traveled]

It looks to me like the baptism of Jesus is about some kind of personal transformation that’s somehow analogous to a physical cleansing after being made unclean, maybe like a washing away of sins. His water of life cleanses us in some way that enables us to enter into the Kingdom that he has been telling us about. He agrees for His Jewish followers to practice the Jewish baptism customs of His time, which apparently includes baptizing people who decide to follow Him, but I don’t see any reason to think that He would want that to be imposed on all of His gentile followers. However that may be, I don’t see any rules from Him about when and how to do it.

The human body consists of a lot of water and blood in it. Perhaps it’s some sort of energy conducted through the human body’s water and blood which transforms, cleans out one’s system of vileness by destruction of that vileness.

 

[Neutral Name]

NOTE: This is for anyone, Christian or not, who agrees to argue only from Christian Bibles. Interpretations, and literal or figurative can be argued, but no debates about historicity or authorship.

In the Bible stories about Jesus, it looks to me like in his time there is a popular practice that in English translations is called “baptism.” It looks to me like a symbol of cleansing for various purposes. One of those purposes is to prepare for some event. The baptisms might normally be done by priests, but they can also be done by prophets, and John is a prophet in popular thinking. He is traveling around, baptizing people in preparation for the mission of Jesus.

It looks to me like the water in the baptism of Jesus is the water that He mentions to the woman at the well.

John 4:14 “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Somehow the disciples have the idea that everyone who wants to follow Jesus needs to be baptized with physical water in the way that is currently popular, and Jesus has no objection to that.

I don’t see any reason in any of that to think that baptism with physical water is a requirement for following Jesus, or that God has rules about when and how to do it.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 3:11
“I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mikveh is the Jewish word for immersion which means ritual cleansing. It actually denotes spiritual cleansing, not physical cleansing.
Baptism: Pagan or Jewish? • Jews for Jesus

Yes, Jesus told the woman at the well that he would baptize her wtih the living water. Living water means the spiritual.

 

[PruePhillip]

I don’t see any reason in any of that to think that baptism with physical water is a requirement for following Jesus, or that God has rules about when and how to do it.

You are correct. There is no rule concerning baptism.
Under the New Covenant rules are few and far between.
Christians are required to be baptized because Jesus
gave the Example of baptism.
"Following Jesus" means to follow His example. And
he was baptized for the purpose of example.

 

[oldbadger]

NOTE: This is for anyone,..................

For this was all about and for the Jews.

There was no middle class within Palestine.
The working people struggled to make ends meet each year and on their visits to be redeemed and cleansed at the Great Temple they were cheated by the citizens of Jerusalem and surrounding towns for every meal and bed. At the Temple they were cheated when converting their own coin for Temple coin, and the Temple coin was desecrated with graven images, the Head of Baal and even Caesar's abbreviated name, which every man could not avoid touching. If they brought sacrificial lambs with them then these could be condemned as imperfect and the Temple lambs cost so much!

And when they went home they were 'penniless' once again, just for the sake of feeling redeemed and cleansed, because they knew that sin led to sickness.
The Temple and its priests were corrupted, greedy hypocrites, and fed well upon the fears of the working people. And they did not bother with the poor laws any more.

But there was a man who lived out in the wastelands on self subsistence, the sends of the seasons and the surges of the migrations and he was at one with his God. And he knew that this had all happened before.

The Baptist's feelings
Mark {3:7} But when he saw many of the Pharisees and
Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O
generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the
wrath to come? ...........

And he offered mercy and redemption for nothing! Simply by immersion in the Jordan, so that the people could turn around and go home, cleansed, and with their hard earned money in their possession still. And they flocked to him, just as folks would flock to him today! And he called out the chant of Hosea......

Hosea's call:-
Hosea {6:6} For I desired mercy, and
not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt
offerings. {6:7} But they like men have transgressed the
covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Mark {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and
preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
{1:5} And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea,
and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the
river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

And the Temple takings, the cruel citizen's earnings and the priest's back-handers fell away. And this caused a crisis, and Antipas was ordered to break up the Baprist's mission and bring him in.

But Jesus got away, out in to the wastelands with other disciples, and he continued on with the Baptist's mission until he himself was captured about a year later on.

Until then, Jesus continued on with Hosea's ancient call:-

Jesus..........Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


And there it is, and was, before Paul had his ideas for a religion.

 

[sooda]

For this was all about and for the Jews.

There was no middle class within Palestine.
The working people struggled to make ends meet each year and on their visits to be redeemed and cleansed at the Great Temple they were cheated by the citizens of Jerusalem and surrounding towns for every meal and bed. At the Temple they were cheated when converting their own coin for Temple coin, and the Temple coin was desecrated with graven images, the Head of Baal and even Caesar's abbreviated name, which every man could not avoid touching. If they brought sacrificial lambs with them then these could be condemned as imperfect and the Temple lambs cost so much!

And when they went home they were 'penniless' once again, just for the sake of feeling redeemed and cleansed, because they knew that sin led to sickness.
The Temple and its priests were corrupted, greedy hypocrites, and fed well upon the fears of the working people. And they did not bother with the poor laws any more.

But there was a man who lived out in the wastelands on self subsistence, the sends of the seasons and the surges of the migrations and he was at one with his God. And he knew that this had all happened before.

The Baptist's feelings
Mark {3:7} But when he saw many of the Pharisees and
Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O
generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the
wrath to come? ...........

And he offered mercy and redemption for nothing! Simply by immersion in the Jordan, so that the people could turn around and go home, cleansed, and with their hard earned money in their possession still. And they flocked to him, just as folks would flock to him today! And he called out the chant of Hosea......

Hosea's call:-
Hosea {6:6} For I desired mercy, and
not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt
offerings. {6:7} But they like men have transgressed the
covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.

Mark {1:4} John did baptize in the wilderness, and
preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
{1:5} And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea,
and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the
river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

And the Temple takings, the cruel citizen's earnings and the priest's back-handers fell away. And this caused a crisis, and Antipas was ordered to break up the Baprist's mission and bring him in.

But Jesus got away, out in to the wastelands with other disciples, and he continued on with the Baptist's mission until he himself was captured about a year later on.

Until then, Jesus continued on with Hosea's ancient call:-

Jesus..........Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


And there it is, and was, before Paul had his ideas for a religion.

Well done.. I wanted you to see this.

The result, he says, is that

even an impeccably Jewish Galilean in first-century Jerusalem was not among his own people; he was as much a foreigner as an Irishman in London or a Texan in New York. His accent would immediately mark him out as “not one of us,” and all the communal prejudice of the supposedly superior culture of the capital city would stand against his claim to be heard even as a prophet, let alone as the “Messiah,” a title which, as everyone knew, belonged to Judea (cf. John 7:40-42).

7 Differences Between Galilee and Judea in the Time of Jesus

 

[David T]

NOTE: This is for anyone, Christian or not, who agrees to argue only from Christian Bibles. Interpretations, and literal or figurative can be argued, but no debates about historicity or authorship.

In the Bible stories about Jesus, it looks to me like in his time there is a popular practice that in English translations is called “baptism.” It looks to me like a symbol of cleansing for various purposes. One of those purposes is to prepare for some event. The baptisms might normally be done by priests, but they can also be done by prophets, and John is a prophet in popular thinking. He is traveling around, baptizing people in preparation for the mission of Jesus.

It looks to me like the water in the baptism of Jesus is the water that He mentions to the woman at the well.

John 4:14 “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Somehow the disciples have the idea that everyone who wants to follow Jesus needs to be baptized with physical water in the way that is currently popular, and Jesus has no objection to that.

I don’t see any reason in any of that to think that baptism with physical water is a requirement for following Jesus, or that God has rules about when and how to do it.

correct.
"of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life"

I am walking talking ocean 98% of me thats a fact. The fun part is walking talking i generally find it around me entertaining in its lack of b. Breathing.

 

[74x12]

NOTE: This is for anyone, Christian or not, who agrees to argue only from Christian Bibles. Interpretations, and literal or figurative can be argued, but no debates about historicity or authorship.

In the Bible stories about Jesus, it looks to me like in his time there is a popular practice that in English translations is called “baptism.” It looks to me like a symbol of cleansing for various purposes. One of those purposes is to prepare for some event. The baptisms might normally be done by priests, but they can also be done by prophets, and John is a prophet in popular thinking. He is traveling around, baptizing people in preparation for the mission of Jesus.

It looks to me like the water in the baptism of Jesus is the water that He mentions to the woman at the well.

John 4:14 “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.”

Somehow the disciples have the idea that everyone who wants to follow Jesus needs to be baptized with physical water in the way that is currently popular, and Jesus has no objection to that.

I don’t see any reason in any of that to think that baptism with physical water is a requirement for following Jesus, or that God has rules about when and how to do it.

The baptism of John 4:14 is not really a physical water baptism. It is the promised baptism of the holy Spirit from heaven.

For the purposes of context, we must realize that first of all in the old Covenant of Moses apparently only the prophets received the holy Spirit. This is why Moses wished that God would pour out His Spirit on all Israel. (see Numbers 11:29)

Because Moses understood that the children of Israel could not truly please God and could not truly worship God in "Spirit and in truth" without the holy Spirit. The fact is though, if all receive the Spirit of God then they don't need the Mosaic Law anymore. Because the Spirit Himself will be their Law and their guide.

This is where the prophet Joel comes in who prophesied that the time would come when God would not just pour out His Spirit on the prophets but on all flesh. (Joel 2:28) So, Moses desire would come to pass in the fullness of time.

But an angel came to John the baptist and told him that it would be the Messiah that would baptize people in the holy Spirit. And that he would know who the Messiah is because the Spirit of God would descend upon the Messiah like a dove. So this is how John knew Jesus was the Messiah and the baptizer of the holy Spirit because John saw the Spirit come down and land on Jesus looking like a dove.

When Jesus breathed on them and said "receive ye the holy Spirit" we don't believe that in itself was the baptism of the holy Spirit. But, what happened is that there was a delayed reaction. Because as we read in Acts 2:1-4 it specifically claims that there first came a sound as of a "rushing mighty wind" so we know this is the true "Breath of Jesus" that came upon them and then they were baptized and overwhelmed in the holy Spirit. Which is still available today. (Acts 2:38-39)

The act of water baptism has always been symbolic of rebirth. Some Jews till practice today when someone wants to convert Judaism they are baptized so that they are "born again" a Jew. But, John's doctrine of baptism was special because he called on the Jews themselves to be baptized for repentance. It was admitting to God that they were also in need of forgiveness.

And Jesus was even more revolutionary to the Jewish mindset. He said "you must be born again" (John 3:3-5) to the Jews and this meant it was not enough just to be born a Jew. You had to be born again. The ultimate rebirth is through the baptism of the holy Spirit; for whatever is born of God is a child of God.

 

[oldbadger]

Well done.. I wanted you to see this.

The result, he says, is that

even an impeccably Jewish Galilean in first-century Jerusalem was not among his own people; he was as much a foreigner as an Irishman in London or a Texan in New York. His accent would immediately mark him out as “not one of us,” and all the communal prejudice of the supposedly superior culture of the capital city would stand against his claim to be heard even as a prophet, let alone as the “Messiah,” a title which, as everyone knew, belonged to Judea (cf. John 7:40-42).

7 Differences Between Galilee and Judea in the Time of Jesus

Exactly.
And this was just the start of movements tjhat would eventually explode in to different revolts.

Paul, who was contracted to put such groups down, had a brilliantly blinding idea........ to produce a belief system which could control masses even more stronly than the threat of crucifixion. Well...... he got that much right.

 

[sooda]

Exactly.
And this was just the start of movements tjhat would eventually explode in to different revolts.

Paul, who was contracted to put such groups down, had a brilliantly blinding idea........ to produce a belief system which could control masses even more stronly than the threat of crucifixion. Well...... he got that much right.

I'm afraid so..

Hold on to your hat..

The Tablets from Ugarit : Center for Online Judaic Studies
cojs.org/the_tablets_from_ugarit_and_their_importance_for_biblical_studies-_peter_c...
Jun 01, 2008 · The Tablets from Ugarit and Their Importance for Biblical Studies, Peter C. Craigie, BAR 9:05, Sep-Oct 1983. For 40 years Claude Schaeffer directed excavations at Ras Shamra in Syria. There he and his colleagues uncovered the remains of the long lost city of Ugarit, a Late Bronze Age metropolis in early Biblical times.

 

[Kenny]

It makes sense to me that Jesus would respect the Jewish customs of His time, and approve of His Jewish followers doing so. It also makes sense to me that the disciples are following some Jewish custom of their time when they baptize people with physical water. Is there any reason to think that Jesus would want that Jewish custom to be imposed on all of His gentile followers?

Is there anything in the gospel stories about Jesus baptizing any of the twelve with physical water?

Great point and nothing that I can see. There were those of the twelve who were baptized in the baptism of John. Certainly Jesus said "Now you are clean through my word". And then there is the baptism in fire, the baptism into the body of Christ too.

So one is left to wondering about that very thing, did Jesus baptize the disciples in water? no answer.

We do know that they did baptize while Jesus was preaching as it was mentioned:

John 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

So the possibility is that, yes, they may have (but no mention directly)

Which is why some believe that baptizing in water is an outward expression of an inward change and not necessary for salvation (in the Christian sense).

 

[Jim]

@sooda @oldbadger The condition for posting in this thread is to argue only from the Christian Bible. Also, the topic is not archaeology and Paul’s Christianity. It’s the baptisms of John and Jesus.

 

[sooda]

Great point and nothing that I can see. There were those of the twelve who were baptized in the baptism of John. Certainly Jesus said "Now you are clean through my word". And then there is the baptism in fire, the baptism into the body of Christ too.

So one is left to wondering about that very thing, did Jesus baptize the disciples in water? no answer.

We do know that they did baptize while Jesus was preaching as it was mentioned:



So the possibility is that, yes, they may have (but no mention directly)

Which is why some believe that baptizing in water is an outward expression of an inward change and not necessary for salvation (in the Christian sense).

Crushing information doesn't inspire faith.

 

[Kenny]

Exactly.
And this was just the start of movements tjhat would eventually explode in to different revolts.

Paul, who was contracted to put such groups down, had a brilliantly blinding idea........ to produce a belief system which could control masses even more stronly than the threat of crucifixion. Well...... he got that much right.

LOL... I doubt that.