1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christian - Baptism

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Linus, Oct 8, 2004.

  1. Corban

    Corban Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2004
    Messages:
    159
    Ratings:
    +9
    "that takes nothing away from the meaning of a water baptism" ??? that takes everything away from a water baptism, it makes it necessary, when Jesus himself said if it doesn't happen you can't enter his kingdom. and about your deathbed repentance scenario. Remember it was Jeses who said "not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father"
     
  2. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132
    I don't see how babies can be held accountable for anything they have done in the first place. Babies are truly innocent. They don't know what is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral. They don't know anything accept how to cry when something isn't right. I don't believe babies should be baptized because they are innocent. They have no sin.
     
  3. Nicky_uk

    Nicky_uk Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2004
    Messages:
    20
    Ratings:
    +2
    Where does Jesus say if you are not baptised in WATER you will not enter the kingdom of heaven?

    IMO, you haev misinterpreted the meaning of the scripture here "not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven". It is of course true that not all who say Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. There are those who believe themselves to be Christians, yet do not know God (even tho they claim to). They may not have a true relationship with God, never truely repented, but call themselves Christians. The devil believes in and acknowledges God, does that mean he will be saved?

    As far as "that takes nothing away from the meaning of a water baptism" It certainly doesn't. The point I was trying to make is, there are those who don't have the opportunity for water baptism. If they call upon the name of the Lord, they shall be saved. If this were not clear, then why would Jesus say to the man next to him on the cross that "Today you will be with me in Glory" The man recognised and acknowleged who Jesus was, and Jesus saw his heart. At that moment, the man was saved. He did not need water baptism to save him. Jesus saves.

    However, for us who can be baptised in water, Jesus asks us to do so. I know this, Jesus asked me, infact told me, rather than asked. I was a young Christian, still at school, and I heard the story of Samuel and Eli, where Samuel kept thinking Eli was calling him. Eli said to Samuel, next time he hears the call to say "Speak Lord for your servant is listning". I thought to myself, well, if Eli can do it, so can I. I went to bed that night, I said to the Lord, Speak Lord for your servant is listning. God spoke to me and said "One to be baptised". I heard him clear, recognised His voice and knew it was Him. That is why I was baptised in water. Therefore, I take nothing whatsoever away from water baptism, all I am saying is, salvation does not depend on it, God is a real God, aware of reality and situations. God looks on the heart thankfully.

    I hope this somehow clears up the point I am trying to make.
     
  4. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    Regarding the water baptism, note that there is no record in the New Testament that the trinitarian baptismal command was ever carried out by the first century church. They always baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
     
  5. Xzist

    Xzist New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2004
    Messages:
    12
    Ratings:
    +0
    Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
     
  6. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    11,476
    Ratings:
    +1,280
    Religion:
    Christian
    The question I pose is this; Is the baptism that is nessecary for salvation one of water, or of spirit?
     
  7. CocaColaKid

    CocaColaKid Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2004
    Messages:
    15
    Ratings:
    +3
    Yes, Babtizem is Highly important, Jesue did, He told the apostles to do it in his name when he gave the Great Comision, It was in the responce that Peter gave to the crowed in jersulam on pentacost.
     
  8. CocaColaKid

    CocaColaKid Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2004
    Messages:
    15
    Ratings:
    +3
    Hey thats a one
     
  9. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    You didn't quote anyone, so I was not sure if you are asking this question to anyone in particular.
    I answered this question in an earlier post:
     
  10. DirtyHarry

    DirtyHarry New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13
    Ratings:
    +0
    If water baptism is not essential for salvation and becoming a disciple of Christ, then why does Christ make specific mention of it in the Great Commission? "19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..." [Matt. 28:19]

    It seems from this passage that we have to be baptised in order to become disciples of Christ.
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

    [/font]
     
  11. DirtyHarry

    DirtyHarry New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    13
    Ratings:
    +0
    Where are the Biblical examples of Christians being saved as a result of "baptism of blood" and "baptism of desire" recorded?
     
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    If someone, who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is killed on their way to the Church to become baptised...... do they go to hell?

    Let me know your answer, and please provide Biblical examples of why you believe as you do....;)
     
  13. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,755
    Ratings:
    +258
    I've always believed that baptism was an outward sign of an inward act. IMO when one is of the age of recogning it's an act of obedience after receiving salvation. I don't feel it's the key to heaven...just obedience.
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,193
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Let's look at the story of Naaman

    II Kings 5:1 Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the LORD had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy. 2 Now bands from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman's wife. 3 She said to her mistress, "If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy." 4 Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said. 5 "By all means, go," the king of Aram replied. "I will send a letter to the king of Israel." So Naaman left, taking with him ten talents of silver, six thousand shekels of gold and ten sets of clothing. 6 The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: "With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy." 7 As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, "Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!" 8 When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: "Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel." 9 So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha's house. 10 Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, "Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed." 11 But Naaman went away angry and said, "I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. 12 Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn't I wash in them and be cleansed?" So he turned and went off in a rage. 13 Naaman's servants went to him and said, "My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, `Wash and be cleansed'!" 14 So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy.

    So what can we learn about baptism from this? Are there any similarities?

    First, we can see that he was used by God. Was he still sick? Oh yes. God can work through anyone.

    Second, he had to believe in someone that was WAY below his status. A slave girl.

    Third, he had to act on faith just to see if he could be helped. He travelled a long way to get to Elisha.

    Fourth, he came with preconceptions.
    a) He thought he could buy salvation.
    b) He expected a MIGHTY miracle
    c) He even had a better plan (and cleaner water!)
    d) That he was more important than God's servant.
    e) We don't like simple. We want things to be COMPLICATED.

    Fifth, not all of those who are supposed to believe do. The King of Israel was in a tizzy over this. But Elisha KNEW the power of God and was way cool with the whole thing. :D

    Sixth listen to God's servants. Even the servants of his servants. Even little slave girls. Truth is truth and no person can add to or subtract from it.

    Humility begets obedience. Do you think Naaman was clean after the 6th dip in the river? Nope, if he had slipped and drowned after that sixth dip, he would have died a leper! But what do the exceptions do for us? They merely give us an "out" for our disobedience. Somehow, I don't think God would let the guy driving across town to get baptised, to be killed.

    A preacher was asked once what ! Peter 3:21 really meant.

    "Peanut Butter!" was his reply?

    "How in the world do you get "Peanut Butter" out of that???"

    "Does it matter? If I had said water, would you have believed me any more?"

    Kind of reminds me of that sign: "My mind is made up, please don't confuse me with the facts (scriptures)."
     
  15. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,193
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    BTW, some label baptism as a work. It truly is a work of God. It can't be man, because we aren't the ones doing the cleaning and the killing or the resurrecting.
     
  16. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,755
    Ratings:
    +258
    Really a good point.
     
  17. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    See, twice in one week we agree! God is Great!

    Scott
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,211
    Ratings:
    +132
    Can you use Biblical examples to prove "baptism of desire"? I don't think we humans can make a judgement either way, because the Bible never says a word about that. God is the Judge. If you or me or the church or anyone says anything in any matter of judgment (besides maybe on the issue of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) I'm afraid you are stepping out of your boundaries.
     
  19. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    Hiya Linus!
    One comes to mind.... the thief on the cross.....
    .... but you seem to be missing the context of the thread.
    That's MY point..... those Christians who say that a physical water Baptism is a "requirement" for salvation are making a huge leap.... like you say, God is the judge.
    The Catholic defintion (that I quoted above and Harry asked me to provide Biblical proof for) handles the question quite nicely..... otherwise, you have quite a hard time answering those who ask you to justify "repent and be baptized" quotes from the Bible.

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  20. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2004
    Messages:
    16,472
    Ratings:
    +3,193
    Religion:
    Christian Taoist
    Like my friend said... peanut butter! He must a meant peanut butter! ;)
     
Loading...