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Christian: Are Christians forgetting that Jesus IS God Himself?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Christy, Dec 29, 2004.

  1. Mister_T

    Mister_T Forum Relic
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    I agree with his agreement. Take water for example. Water can have 3 forms: liquid, solid, and gas. A body of water, an ice cube, and a cloud are different yet the same in the sense that they are composed of the same substance. Apply this analogy to God, Jesus, and the Holy spirit and you get the trinity.
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    But the doctrine of the Trinity says that the relationship is more than a simple change in manifestation. The doctrine of the Trinity says that there are three distinct and different persons composing the same God. Think of it more as a soup. There are chicken, stock, and vegetables. All different things, all "coming out of the same pot," and all being recognized as "one Soup."
     
  3. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Is there some sort of logic to this statement?
     
  4. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Okay, let's say the body of water = God; the ice cube = Jesus; the cloud = the Holy Spirit. When the ice cube melts, does Jesus cease to exist as Jesus and become part of God the Father? When the body of water evaporates, does God cease to exist, except as the Holy Spirit? The same substance (H2O) cannot exist in all three forms at once. Is this the case with the Trinity?
     
  5. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Well, as analogies go, this one is better than the water one. But the chicken, stock and vegetables are only "soup" when they are combined. Chicken without stock and vegetables is not soup, is it? Is Jesus Christ without the Holy Spirit still God?
     
  6. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    That's why it's a mystery. There is nothing else in existence like the Trinity to compare it to.
     
  7. Super Universe

    Super Universe Defender of God

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    Humans think so much of themselves. Surely we are the whole point of the universe, this huge thing, so vast that our imagination cannot fathom it all. Such great beings we are. Humans, that God created it all for us and only us even though we could never, ever, travel to the limits of our own galaxy and there are a trillion galaxies out there.

    Jesus said he was the Son of God, like you and I are the son of God.

    The Trinity is this: God was alone in the universe and He...dreamed. The incredible things in this dream had power to create for themselves that which they wanted and desired but still it was only a dream. There was nothing in the universe but God. So God created a being like Himself to oversee the coming universe and keep to God's original intent which is free will for all within. The Son has all the power of God.

    Now there was only God and the Son. Still there was nothing else in the void. So God sacrificed His form and instantly all the matter in the universe was released. God's soul remains, the Holy Ghost which is sentient energy.

     
  8. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Sojourner,

    I respect your right to believe the Trinity is a mystery. I'll even go along with you and admit that it's something that's impossible to comprehend. But since I don't believe that God is the author of confusion, and since I do believe that He sincerely wants us to understanding Him, I can't accept the doctrine of the Trinity as a true one in the first place. I do not find my understanding of God to be the slightest bit confusing. That's one of the reasons I believe as I do.

    Respectfully,

    Squirt
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I think you're right. God isn't the author of confusion. God does want us to understand God. But let me ask you a question. have you considered that the confusion you feel about the Trinity comes from your own finite, human brain and not from God? Paul says that "now we see dimly." Paul understood that we are incapable of understanding all that God is. That doesn't constitute confusion -- it just constitutes our inability to see and understand God fully. One day, we will see God facr-to-face.

    I don't find confusion in the Trinity -- just in my own head. It does frustrate me that I can't fully wrap my mind around it:bonk:, but I accept it. I have accepted the fact that human language is important to our thought process, and that language sometimes serves to limit our thought process. That's why the concept of the Trinity remains a mystery to me. I sort of "get the concept," but it remains amorphous and elusive to the tongue to describe. It is easier to just conceptualize these three Persons as simply Father, Son, Spirit -- and not attempt to really combine them in any way.

    I can't explain the Trinity -- I don't think anyone can, at least not to the satisfaction of atheists and skeptics. But that's not my problem.;)

    Thanks for your thoughts!
     
  10. DTrent

    DTrent Member

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    WOW!!!!!!! :eek: :eek:
    That is such a startling thought!!! :eek: :eek:
    I think I'll use that when discussing with people the fact that God is not Christ, Christ is not God & the holy spirit is not either one of them! Thanx!!
     
  11. dan

    dan Well-Known Member

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    All these definitions do nothing to reconcile logic with the creed that the Trinity is based on. The three of them are supposedly of the same substance. You are making analogies about classifications, not substance. Stock is one substance, chicken is another. They are only one insofar as they are classified as a soup. The Trinity is completely different. The Trinity defines all three as chicken, all three as stock, and all three as vegetables. Your analogies fit better with the LDS concept of Godhead.
     
  12. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    well...the creed says that Jesus Christ is "of one being with the Father." I'm not sure that equates to your statement that "the three of them are... of the same substance."

    The Trinity doesn't define "all three as chicken, all three as stock, and all three as vegetables." The Trinity says that God is fully present in three distinct persons: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. And they all work together. None works without the other. I'm not sure whether it's theologically fair to talk of one outside the relativity of the other two... The Father created through the Son. The Son is with us through the Holy Spirit. The Son asks the Father to send the Spirit.

    Obviously, the Trinity cannot be explained so simply as chicken soup. What perspective do you suggest we assume, in order to look upon God in God's entirety? I don't know of any.
     
  13. Geoffthe3rd

    Geoffthe3rd Member

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    That is why the Catholic Church has a Pope and a Priestly Hierarchy, with each of us interpreting the bible in our own way then that causes division (which is why we have 20,000 Protestant denominations). We have a Pope led by the Holy Spirit to help direct us in our understanding of the Holy Scriptures, which helps keep unity. Cause the Church is the Body of Christ and i doubt Christ will 'reveal' to us different epiphanys that are totally contradictory to eachother
     
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