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Christian: Are Christians forgetting that Jesus IS God Himself?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Christy, Dec 29, 2004.

  1. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    The problem here is that you are asserting something different than what the Trinity teaches. When you deny the equality, that they are the same God with one nature, you deny the Trinity. The word doesn't expand that far.

    What constitutes heresy? I don't like to use this word often. "Heresy" is from a Greek word with a similar meaning. So, anything that deviated from that which was received in the Early Church was a heresy, anything that broke away was in schism, and this definition continued. So, we have a received definition of the Trinity, and when one breaks off from it, one goes into what the rest of Christianity would frown on quite heavily.

    You cannot claim to accept the Trinity, and at the same time redefine it into something else. The technical classification for the belief you outlined is Subordinationism. I'm trying to think of a resonse, though.
     
  2. Christopher Krajewski

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    I just don't still feel the need to defend our religion (Christianity) against all other forms.

    Of course, for some believing would somehow incorporate "hurting", probably because they felt less security in their own Faith. Therefore, you'all often want to protray that specific fact of a human being existing in the not so often distant past with those extraordinary humilities. But we will never really ever be able to be as GOOD as He.
     
  3. chris9178

    chris9178 Member

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    Well, basically the Bible says that Jesus and God and the Spirit are One. Ok, cool.
    But the Bible also shows, and says, that God (the Father) is greater. To what degree, I dont know.

    So, if you want to keep Trinity in its traditional view, then no I can't use the word. But that still doesn't exhaust the issue. There are still holes in the traditional Trinity.

    Well, if heresy = against mainstream belief, then I suppose what I say can be labeled as heresy.
     
  4. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    Well, we do know that Jesus has the nature of God. John 1.1 makes that clear. I think Philippians 2.6-11 speaks to what you're saying here:

    All the neccessary elements are present here. We see a hierarchy, but we also see equality. The clause "did not consider it robbery to be equal with God" is translated as "did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited." I personally favor that translation. The NIV treats it "as something to be grasped," i.e. that it isn't something he tightly held onto. IMO, this is a poor translation, and it can be easily confused.

    No matter which translation of the clause in question, we see that Jesus is equal with God. The verse states it plain as day. Now, it follows next to say that Christ emptied Himself and assumed the nature of man. In this way, Jesus has emptied Himself of all His divine authority, and has become a slave. After His crucifixion and death, He is exalted back to His former glory, and this functions to the glory of the Father.

    This single passage provides an explanation for the phenomena you've observed (the Son being subordinate to the Father on earth), and it is quite traditional. Further, we also have hints at the other aspect of it: all this is done for the glory of the Father. The Father is the centerpiece of the Trinity, the source of all being (even the Son and the Spirit, who both come from Him despite being uncreated).

    This verse is a good model to explain the traditional view of the Trinity and Incarnation.

    Now, when we couple this with the Lamb on the throne of God in the passage from Revelation, we find an image of Christ with the authority of God. When Christ asserts not just that "I and the Father are One," but "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father," the traditional view accepts all of this, and it accounts for the subordination of the Son quite nicely.

    I would be more strict than that :). That, however, is another thread. Still, that's the basic meaning of the word, yes.
     
  5. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    <The Trinity has been a confusing concept for all of Christendom.>

    The entire doctrine of the Trinity is an enormous gloss on that phrase in the First Letter of John that God is self-gift. From that metaphor spins out the whole of Trinitarian theology.

    How can we speak of one God who is Father, Son and Spirit? (What many of us now simply accept as part of our Creed had to be hammered out over many years.) Three people who played a very important role in that process during the fourth century were St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory of Nazianzus. Because they lived in Cappadocia (an area of present-day Turkey), these three saints are simply called the Cappadocians. For many of us in the West, their thought is not well-known. A key concept in their teaching about how the Trinity is both one and three is perichoresis, a term conveying dynamic and creative energy, eternal movement, mutuality and interrelatedness. The three divine persons are what they are by relation to one another. Some scholars like to use the image of dance to describe this term. In this divine dance there is an eternal movement of reciprocal giving and receiving, expressing the essence and unity of God. Moreover this interrelatedness of the triune God is not self-contained but is poured out in creation, Incarnation and final fulfillment. God is overflowing love, leading humanity and all creation into the divine dance of God&#8217;s life.

    "God is love," but a very particular kind of love, for the word chosen in the Greek text is agape. It is not eros, which is a love that seeks fulfillment in that which is loved, nor philia, which is companionable love or friendship. Agape is a purely other-directed love, a love that seeks no response and demands no return, a love centered totally on the beloved.

    One of the things that we say in prayer most often is that what we are about to do is done "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.", we are talking about a relational God, not the One but the relatedness of the Three

    We never actually say that we believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is not a doctrine next to other doctrines of the faith; it is the only doctrine, and all the others are expansions and explanations of it. The Trinity, which is the unfolding of the. fundamental Christian metaphor that God is self-gift, is the clue to everything.
     
  6. Blade

    Blade New Member

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    The way I truly look at all this is that God is one in three forms (Father, Son, and The Holy Spirit)( Trinity Theory), but I don't believe that just because you may believe in one or three will make a difference on weather or not you will go to hell as long as you know all of them are real and accept them and follow them
     
  7. Dentonz

    Dentonz Member

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    I agree and disagree. The Jesus we know as a man was a humanly shell that held the divine. All three acting at once. The mind of God, body of Christ, power of the Holy spirit.
    In his human body he contained all the unlimited power of the Holy Spirit which is why he had to leave (physically) to release his power to us. The man Jesus was the sacrifice for all the sin of mankind but the spirit of Jesus is God from everlasting to everlasting. That is why there are distinctions between the two. I believe the highest name for God is Jesus or Yeshua meaning Jehovah(Yahweh) is my salvation. Why else would all power in heaven and earth be given to the name of Jesus.
    But if I get to heaven and Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate beings I won't be suprised. After all we do pray to the Father through the name of Jesus under the power of the Holy Spirit.
     
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Hello, Christy.

    While I respect your right to believe in the Trinity, I don't personally believe that God (the Father) was in Heaven ruling and on the earth dying at the same time. I don't believe that Jesus sent Himself to earth, prayed to Himself, asked Himself to forgive those who killed Him, asked Himself why He'd forsaken Himself, commended Himself into His own hands or sits today on His own right side, having ascended to be with Himself. I think the reason why our teachings don't adequately reflect the doctrine of the Trinity is because it's not an accurate expression of the relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
     
  9. dawny0826

    dawny0826 Mother Heathen

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    Amen, brother...that's living by faith, not by sight.:clap Well said.
     
  10. Searcher of Light

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    I always thought that the Trinity idea was actually quite simple to understand:
    As people we have a mind, body, and spirit.

    God is composed of:
    1) the Father - mind
    2) Jesus- body
    3) Holy Spirit - spirit

    That said I believe them to be 3 seperate entities but the same at the same time as just illustrated. The Father as the mind, can be seperate from the other 2. However, the other 2 are dependant on the mind (the Father) for their actions. While they do have free will it seems, they depend on the commands of the mind to act.

    Think of it this way; the mind controls what our bodies do as it does our spirits. We move our bodies with our mind, but the body can move of its own accord as well (breathing etc). Our spirits dont sin, our minds do. Our spirits just reinforce what the mind decides.
     
  11. spookboy0

    spookboy0 Member

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    I drew this a while back, and I'm talking months back. This is how I've interpreted GOD, and I hope it's not right, because then...well who knows?

    [​IMG]

    When God is referred in the Bible, it's understood that it is speaking of the Godhead, or the Trinity. The Godhead is composed of God the Father (mind), God the Son (body, GOD incarnate), and God the Holy Spirit (spirit [please disregard the redunency]).

    For today, most refer to this "Godhead" or "Trinity" as "God." However this has caused some to think that "God (Trinity)" is God the Father. By this, some believe that God is in the Godhead, which is making two infinities, which is impossible.

    Any remarks on how I can improve this?

    (In the drawing, the triangles are only to show a being. They are dotted to show that The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one GOD.)
     
  12. FFH

    FFH Veteran Member

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    Jesus is Jehovah, or God the Son. Elohim is God the Father.
     
  13. DTrent

    DTrent Member

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    Intesting...Ever do research and see where the trinity doctrine originated from?
    You may be surprised to find that it didn't come from God' Word...
     
  14. Abram

    Abram Abraham

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    This subject drives me nuts. I almost became LDS because of the devotion they have, their family values, strong believers. I studied the trinity till I was blue in the face. Reading each of the passages for what they are really saying, twisting and torching the text to read what I wanted to. The Trinity:banghead3 a word we created...

    But if you step back and look at the Bible as one unfolding story, it makes sense. The tabernacle that God dwelt in is a replica of Jesus. To the point to if you were to fly above it you will see a cross, the longest arm to the east. The OT is in the NT reveled and the NT is in the OT concealed.

    Mary was a virgin, so Jesus was not man. He forgave sins which God can only do. He lived a sinless life which no man could do, only God. He forgave the sins of every person in the world, no man has the power to do that.

    So by saying that Jesus is not God you are pulling the salvation you think you have right out from under you feet. Your cutting the branch your sitting on.
     
  15. Nimaj

    Nimaj Member

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    Allow me to add some biblical insight:

    John 1:1
    In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    It is like a triangle that is also a circle...All these three are one. "God the father created the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1) Jesus was born to earth, as God robed himself in flesh, and the Holy Ghost was God indwelling the apostles (Acts 2:4).

    The next question that you will ask is: In Matthew 3:17, who then said "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased"

    Answer: JESUS!

    For further debate, in Matthew 28:19, what is "The name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"?

    Answer: JESUS!
     
  16. Buttercup

    Buttercup Veteran Member

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    I haven't forgotten that Jesus is God himself! :)
     
  17. lunamoth

    lunamoth Will to love

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    It seems to me that as soon as we create a hierarchy in the Persons of the Trinity we no longer have monotheism, but polytheism.

    2 c,
    lunamoth
     
  18. i believe in tranquility

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    personally i dont beilve that Jesus IS God, simply because Jesus says he is the son of God, not God HIMSELF...

    also because I dont beilve that God has a sex, and if Jesus is God that implies that God is male....


    I do beilve that he IS the SON of God tho..
     
  19. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    It doesn't seem right to be teaching, kids or adults, babes in christ who are new to the Word, these confusing concepts of trinity. The Scriptures give command unto teachers to start with milk not meat and that if you, a teacher of the Word should have questions or doubts to not seek the council of man but seek the council of the Lord in His Word.
     
  20. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Interesting that the Hebrew word for "God" -- elohim, is plural ... Gods ...
     
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