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Featured Christ Has returned, what should have we looked for?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Feb 26, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
  2. No

    34 vote(s)
    58.6%
  3. Maybe

    1 vote(s)
    1.7%
  4. I'm Fence sitting

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  5. Just a popcorn question

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  6. Definitly never

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  7. He has Come

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    We have posted a reply to this question previously, Trailblazer may repost that quote for you, I am out at the moment.

    Yes not all Biblical Prophecy has been outwardly fulfilled to date. This falls back to our reponse to the Message Given.

    The example we will use is Swords into Plowshares. Baha'u'llah has Fulfilled this Promise. Baha'u'llah has given the Law that Religious war is forbidden and also given the required Laws and Guidance.to enable this to be so.

    Thus God allows our free will in the fulfillment of these Prophecies

    Those that accept the Message practice the Law and have beaten Swords into Powshares. As time unfolds and more people accept Baha'u'llah, the more that there is that practice this Law.

    Thus it will take time and the recognition of Baha'u'llah before all Prophecy becomes materially fulfilled.

    Regards Tony
     
  2. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    If prophesies aren't literally fulfilled, they can be interpreted in so many ways that they become meaningless. Weapons on the planet have multiplied. They haven't gone away. Are you saying that God is allowing and waiting for our free will to chose to fulfill the prophesy? So what happens if people never make the right choices and keep making weapons and keep fighting wars? Does the prophecy go unfulfilled? Or, is God going to intervene like he did with the Israelites? Or, was things like the Flood and the annihilation of Sodom and Gomorrah just symbolic?
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Here is an answer I just posted to an ex-Christian agnostic on another forum yesterday.... I keep these posts in my back pocket (in a Word document). :)

    First of all, there is no such thing as a Jewish Messiah. There is a Messiah that Jews are waiting for, but He is not a Jewish Messiah. He is just a Messiah. Just as Christians are waiting for Jesus who they believe is the Messiah, Jews await a Messiah. All religions are awaiting a Messiah:

    “Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.

    Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.

    For centuries, people from all over the world have been hoping and praying that they will be the generation which will witness the appearance of their Promised One. Not many have considered the possibility that these prophecies from the various religions might actually all be foretelling the exact same event.”

    Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage

    You said: Did he regather all the Israelites to Israel? Does he now rule the entire world from David's throne in Jerusalem? How do you think these things will happen? Jews have their own ideas of what the prophecies that refer to these events mean, Christians have their own ideas, Baha’is have their own ideas. So who is right? Is there a literal throne in Jerusalem that the Messiah will sit upon and rule the entire world, like a king? What will then happen after the Messiah dies? The regathering of the Jews to their homeland began within a couple of months of the Bab declaring His mission, when the Edict of Toleration 1844 was signed.

    An Age is called an Age because it spans a given amount of time in history. All of the Messianic Age prophecies you cited will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age. It is a Baha’i belief that this new religious cycle (or Age) began in 1844 will last no less than 500,000 years. There is no reason to think that 174 years after the Age began that all the “Messianic Age” prophecies will be fulfilled. Moreover, nowhere does the Bible or the Jewish scriptures say that.

    “God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.

    What we witness at the present time, during “this gravest crisis in the history of civilization,” recalling such times in which “religions have perished and are born,” is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies, of Bahá’u’lláh. The tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.”

    The Promised Day is Come, pp. 116-117

    To be clear, there are two kinds of prophecies:
    1. Prophecies that refer to the Messiah (what would happen before He came and while He was on earth). These are the prophecies we can look at to determine if Baha’u’llah was the Messiah.
    2. Prophecies that refer to what would happen as a “result” of His Coming. These are the Messianic Age prophecies and these could be fulfilled anytime after he declared His mission into the Messianic Age.
    The prophecies that refer to the Messiah Himself have all been fulfilled. Those prophecies are addressedin a book entitled Thief in the Night. It is ridiculous to expect all the prophecies for the Messianic Age to be fulfilled in 174 years, given it took humanity 6000 years (the beginning of the present universal cycle of religion; see Ages and Cycles) to get to where they were at the beginning of the present religious cycle.Humanity is in a mess. How do you think that all of that mess can be cleaned up in 174 years? Has that ever happened before in human history? The only way that could happen is if God intervened and fixed things Himself. This is what Christians believe will happen when Jesus returns; He will wave His magic wand and poof – everything will be fixed, all the social injustice and even global warming! ~~ Sorry, Baha’is do not live in a fantasy world. Humans are the ones who will fix all the problems we now have in the world, according to the blueprint instructions outlined by Baha’u'llah.

    The Book of Revelation is interpreted differently by different people and even Christians do not agree among themselves what it means. Some of it has been interpreted by Baha’is but I am no expert. Suffice to say, whatever Christians believe refers to Jesus refers to Baha’u’llah. If you want to know more, you will have to go to the forum where the other Baha’is hang out. I do know one thing though. The New Jerusalem was ushered in by Baha’u’llah:

    “The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
     
    #723 Trailblazer, Apr 11, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Rev 11:1-2
    “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, with its worshipers. 2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.​

    From Bill Sears book page 12-13:
    The next aliens to seize and hold it captive were the Muslims. They conquered Jerusalem in AD 637 and upon the foundation of the Temple of Solomon, they raised the Mosque of Omar. During their period of occupation, Jews were largely excluded from their homeland, the few remaining being proscribed. The restriction came to end in the year 1844.​

    A couple of problems. Jerusalem was already taken over by the Romans and the Jews scattered.
    Page 12 from Bill Sears book:
    Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman Titus, in AD 70, and the Jews were scattered and exiled.
    So how long before the Edict of Toleration from either date 70AD or 637AD? Are either one the "42" prophetic months that Baha'is change into days then years to come up with 1260? No. They take the date of the Hegira, 622AD, then count the 1260 years. So like I said, if prophesies are symbolic, they can be made to mean anything.

    Another question... if the Adamic cycle is 6000 years, does that mean Adam lived 6000 years ago? We have gone over this in the "Great Beings" thread and I believe it was said that Hinduism goes back well beyond 6000 years.
     
  5. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Tony, Trailblazer... I didn't see an answer to this post.
     
  6. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Tony and Trailblazer, didn't see an answer to this post either. You got anything?
     
  7. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    When you read about sackcloth at this link - Sackcloth - Wikipedia - Then the explanation by Abdul'baha is a logical sound explanation.

    Sackcloth could have many spiritual explanations.

    You have to decide how you perceive all this.

    I am more than sure if we were knowledgeable enough, we could find this explanation supported by scripture. I took a quick look and found this in Isiah, who was a giver of Prophecy;

    Now think of the age of Muhammad. Who was seen as an Illiterate Man, who was given a Message from God, who again very few would listen to;

    King James Bible : Isaiah 50:2 "Wherefore, when I came, was there no man? when I called, was there none to answer? Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver? behold, at my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a wilderness: their fish stinketh, because there is no water, and dieth for thirst.50:3 I clothe the heavens with blackness, and I make sackcloth their covering..........

    In this section I see the Heavens are the Teachings of God, the Bringer of those Teachings are the Messengers of God. Each Messenger I see has a garment of Sackcloth. Could also be a coat of Many Colours! ;)

    ......
    50:4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.50:5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.50:6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.50:7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.50:8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me.50:9 Behold, the Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up.50:10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God."

    This section mentions the connection of Sackcloth to Old Garment. The words between all this can be seen as the plight of each Messenger when they deliver a New Message.

    The answers to all your questions can be found. Again, I say our heart must first connect with the Messenger. I say this as then one starts looking for connections to our One God. I can say I look for nothing else, division is death, unity is life.

    The division of thought currently in the world, is just so very very sad. Recognition of our Oneness and striving for Unity does not mean there is a lack of diversity.

    Regards Tony
     
  8. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    What we are looking for is God, to know God and Love God.

    Each of us can find God by our choices and actions. It is a gift given.

    The Calculation has no complication. The Year AD1844 is also the year AH1260. The Calculation from Daniel to Prove Christ and then also the Baha'i Revelation used the Christian Gregorian Solar Calendar. Revelation used reference the Muslim Luna Calendar date. Some of the prophecies use a combination of both.

    Muhammad's Message lasted 1260 Luna Years.

    CG, we do not need any of these calculations to know who Baha'u'llah, the Bab, Muhammad, Krishna, Zoroaster, Buddha, Abraham, Moses and Jesus Christ are. They are just bonus pieces of information given after the fact of finding the Spirit that is within them all.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    From your link Sackcloth - Wikipedia
    Sackcloth (Hebrew שַׂק saḳ) is a term originally denoting a coarsely woven fabric, usually made of goat's hair. It later came to mean also a garment made from such cloth, which was chiefly worn as a token of mourning by the Israelites. It was furthermore a sign of submission (1 Kings 20:31-32), or of grief and self-humiliation (2 Kings 19:1),[1]
    From the SAQ:
    “And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and three-score days, clothed in sackcloth.” ...It is said they “are clothed in sackcloth,” meaning that they, apparently, were to be clothed in old raiment, not in new raiment; in other words, in the beginning they would possess no splendor in the eyes of the people, nor would their Cause appear new; for Muḥammad’s spiritual Law corresponds to that of Christ in the Gospel, and most of His laws relating to material things correspond to those of the Pentateuch. This is the meaning of the old raiment.
    Sorry, don't see the connection between "sackcloth" and "old raiment". A garment made out of sackcloth can be new or old, but the important thing is that it is made of sackcloth. And why would someone want to wear such a garment? Apparently to show mourning or submission. Abdu'l Baha ignores the material, sackcloth, all together and goes into the meaning of "old raiment".

    But the other question that is a problem is the date of when Jerusalem fall into the hands of the Muslims, AD 637. Abdu'l Baha says:
    "Gentiles shall govern and control Jerusalem forty and two months, signifying twelve hundred and sixty days; and as each day signifies a year, by this reckoning it becomes twelve hundred and sixty years..."
    So when did they take control? AD 637. How long will they control it? 1260 years. So add the two numbers together and what do you get? Either solar or lunar years will not add up to 1844, because we already know that AD 622 plus the 1260 lunar years is how Baha'is get to 1844. Abdu'l Baha sneaks in with "which is the duration of the cycle of the Qur’án" at the end of his "1260" years. But he's talking about when "Gentiles shall govern and control Jerusalem". That didn't happen in AD 622. It happened in AD 637... and was to last "42 months" which Abdu'l Baha converts into years, and then starts the years from AD 622 and not AD 637?

    Sorry, that is manipulating the numbers a little too much for me. Other than that, I hope Baha'is are doing well at bringing peace to the world before our leaders blow it all up.
     
  10. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Can you clarify this...
    Baha'is say this beast with the fatal wound is 'Abd al-Rahman and was part of the Umayyads. The Abbasids overthrew the Umayyads in 749 AD. But the one guy escaped to Andalusia and set up another Umayyad dynasty for another 300 years. Then Adrian says:

    Revelation 13:11
    And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon... The second beast was the 'Abbasid dynasty.

    But, in verse 7 the beast with the fatal wound, 'Abd al-Rahman, was given authority over all people and nations? And, in verse 5 exercised his authority for 42 months? When did this guy ever have that kind of power? And why date his "42 months" all the way back to 622 AD just so Baha'is can make the months into days and then years and come up to 1844? Isn't that manipulating the prophecy just a bit?

    Now the Abbasids are supposed to be the second beast. But this doesn't make sense either. The second beast made the inhabitants of the earth worship the first beast? Which is the Umayyad, 'Abd al-Rahman? And the second beast killed all those that didn't worship the first beast? But the Umayyads were the enemies of the Abbasids.

    But now, even more confusing, it's this second beast that gets the number 666. So if it's the Abbasids that conquered the Umayyads in 749 AD, then how and why do Baha'is interpret the 666 prophecy as a date? The supposed start of the Umayyads, which I think was 661 AD, but the Baha'is added five years, because Jesus wasn't born on year "0" but a few years before that, and 5 is the best number for Baha'is to guess at because 5 plus 661 equals 666. But that is not the start of the Abbasid dynasty. That's the start of the Umayyads.
    We have the Book of Revelation. It has some wild and vague imagery... All these beasts and dragons and "Woes". One thing happens and an amount of time is given that will take place before something else happens. But 31/2 days, 42 months and 1260 days are all made into the same 1260 years and all start at the same date, AD 622?

    There's other questions in there also, but another problem with this is... all these beasts and dragons are gone. They've been gone for more than a 1000 years. So any "Woe" type of things that happened since then aren't told about in Revelation? We had plagues in Europe. The colonizing of the world by European countries. The Protestant Reformation. And so much more, but Baha'is make the prophesies in Revelation all about what happened in Islam. Sorry, that is very odd to me.
     
  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    CG, that is a good place to leave it. Peace will only come when humanities unity is firmly established.

    It is for you to also choose to walk on this path to which Baha'u'llah has said;

    ".....The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded."

    The Baha'is have taken the choice to heed these Counsels, only others can answer how and when they might consider them.

    Regards Tony
     
  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    CG, I can only offer the explanations given by Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha.

    Prophecy must be a personal thing, as when I read these explanations I saw no need to dispute them. I just saw them as the answer.

    I read Thief in the Night and was amazed. My mother called it the work of the Devil.

    I think it is not Prophecy we need to look at any more. Why not just read about the lives of the prophets and Messengers from reliable sources, let their lives and actions talk for themselves.

    I would suggest start with the gift Baha'u'llah gave us and that is the life of Abdul'baha. Abdul'baha showed us how we should live and reflected the intent of all Gods Messages of all Faiths.

    There is no better reading than this book;

    "Memories of Nine Years in Akka by
    Youness Afroukhteh"

    Memories of Nine Years in Akka

    Served as a Secretary to Abdul'baha

    Quote from Author

    "...My hope is that future generations of believers may become acquainted with past events and, unlike the followers of other religions who have largely remained incognizant of the traits and attributes of past Manifestations, obtain an understanding of the character, personality, and manners of one such divinely-inspired Personage..."

    Regards Tony
     
    #732 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Apr 14, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Except, still, what we should have looked for, or what we are still looking for has to be the prophesies in the Bible. Anybody can find something that almost fits. To say that the Woes in one part of Revelation are referring to three manifestations is fine, but in later chapter there are more Woes mentioned plus a 1000 years reign before a release of Satan from a pit. To be consistent with the day/year prophecy formula, these 1000 years would have to be converted to days and then back to years. That's a lot of years. It also talks of Gog and Magog. Who countries are those? And how did the prophesies about them get fulfilled by Baha'u'llah. Sorry, just not enough.

    With the way the world is going, there is a good chance that the prophesies of Revelation are being fulfilled right now... not 100's of years ago. But thanks for trying.
     
  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    CG, I posted the response to this. That many Bible Prophecies will take time to be sèen as fulfilled by Baha'u'llah, just as it took time for Jesus the Christ to be seen and accepted as fulfilling Prophecy.

    Thus Baha'u'llah has fulfilled Prophecy just as Christ did. You can answer your own questions by asking yourself how many Jews see Prophecy Fulfilled in Jesus the Christ?

    As time unfolds you will see the world embacing all of what Baha'u'llah has said needs to happen. Each time, this happens more people become aware of this fact and will see the Power within those Words.

    200 years from now you would not have to ask any questions. It will be a way of life to those that remain to carry forth an every advancing civilization.

    Regards Tony
     
  15. tayla

    tayla My dog's name is Tayla

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    Whoever Jesus actually was in history, I doubt he has any way to return for one of two reasons:
    1. He was a mere man and is now dead, or
    2. He is fiction.
     
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Oh I can assure Christ has already returned and every knee will bow. 1844 saw the beginning of what will be.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    So you can't clarify these questions? If the Baha'i interpretations don't stand up to the slightest scrutiny, then what?
     
  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    No I cannot give you clarity in these matters.

    CG, that is up to you to decide. The explanations given by Baha'u'llah and Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi are correct.

    I have suggested a path for you to determine if you could also place the required Trust in their replies. Without that trust, it matters not what else we offer.

    What we then make of the rest of it is up to us.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Well thanks anyway, but I feel my questions were so basic that there needs to be at some point a deeper study and evaluation of the Baha'i interpretations.
     
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  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe there is no evidence to back up that concept. Daniel does talk about the false prophet but it is not a sure thing that it is Muhammad.

    I believe I can't imagine what you are trying to say.

    I believe that is not true.

    I believe there isn't a shred of sense in that statement.

    I believe anyone who knows anything about the Qu'ran knows the words in parentheses are not in the Qu'ran. Those words are mere speculation without any validity.

    I believe those words are not in the original text, the original text read: "Allah His Son". IN Arabic the "is" is often left out between nouns and the translation should read "Allah is His Son."
     
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