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Featured Christ Has returned, what should have we looked for?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Feb 26, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
  2. No

    34 vote(s)
    58.6%
  3. Maybe

    1 vote(s)
    1.7%
  4. I'm Fence sitting

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  5. Just a popcorn question

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  6. Definitly never

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  7. He has Come

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Will catch with all your replies in the morning, in Australia time to retire for the next working day :)

    Regards To all Tony
     
  2. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    I thought you said you were Christ.
     
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  3. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Yes, that’s exactly how it happened.
     
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  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Think for these points to be done properly, the person fulfilling Revelation should know the Hebraic prophecies, to be able to show why Yeshua is Messiah from a Jewish perspective.
    Shhh, don't spoil the game; we get to see if they get the clues or are so busy trying to push their own agenda they miss it. ;)
    Between the prophets globally, there is a Snare/Illusion put on the whole of mankind, where we're under a Curse...

    This Curse is that we can't see the demons in people, we've been led in the opposite direction to Oneness on purpose; so that only the wise who listen to God go the right direction.

    Yeshua is the bait in the Snare, as he was Yahavah (The Lord to Be); that he didn't come to die for people, and the whole thing is a Snare to catch out the Ravenous beings (Isaiah 34, Isaiah 24), where when reality dissolves the demons fall into the trap.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  5. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Everything's better with popcorn, especially movie popcorn. :)

    The sad thing is, Jesus could come back and it turns out the bible was less than accurate about what he was. Ten bucks says Christianity would hang him back up on a cross.
     
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  6. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I think they already have done so.
     
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  7. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    mencius said it best,

    friendship is two bodies being of one mind.


    or another way of looking at it is great minds think alike.

    when one realizes that they are one with the Absolute, or the Universe, and not separate from it, then they realize that they are a part of something great.

    I am in the Father and the Father is in me. or I AM in the Absolute and the Absolute is in me.
     
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  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    If anyone turns up claiming to be Christ, and doesn't realize the Gospel of John is made up, then they're not very bright...

    In all 3 of the Synoptic Gospels (Luke 21:8, Matthew 24:4-5, Mark 13:5) Yeshua warns that those who come using the term "Ego I-mee" ("I Am") pretending to be him, shall deceive many...

    Yeshua doesn't speak that way in the Synoptic Gospels that we find in the fake Gospel of John; there are no parables, and repeated usages of "I Am".

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    reverence of the name is recognition of the inherent and inheritance.

    Malachi 4:2
    But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves.

    Revelation 11:18
    The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small— and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”


    God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment In this world we are like Jesus

    true but those who recognize they are, like Jesus, and tell others they are as well recognize that the Kingdom of God comes from within everywhere. the I AM, Absolute isn't exclusive to a place in space/time.
     
    #29 Fool, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  10. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    There are hundreds and hundreds of prophecies of Christ's return that were not fulfilled in the Baha'i faith.

    The NT speaks ten times as much about Christ's return as about His earthly ministry in His First Advent. Baha'i does not fulfill the NT.
     
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  11. Vouthon

    Vouthon Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
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    Hello @Tony Bristow-Stagg

    I believe we are already acquainted, you will perhaps remember "Yeshua" from Baha'i Forums? Well, that was me in earlier life. :D

    As you know, I hold Baha'i ethics, mystical and social teachings in high regard (some disturbing laws of the Aqdas, the mainstream UHJ position in favour of a global theocracy and the whole Covenant-breaking phenomenon excepting, of course). I find the Iqan, Hidden Words and the Seven Valleys to be beautiful works of nineteenth century Persian-Arabic literature.

    I should caution you in advance, however, that I have little time for religious apologetic prefixed upon alleged fulfillment of prophecies and Baha'is, like numerous Protestant sects, seem to be real suckers for this kind of intellectually barren argumentation in my experience - which is unfortunate since you have a wealth of other material with which to engage in interfaith or evangelizing discussions that I would say are far more productive avenues for debate.

    Very few people have ever come to believe in Christ based upon his supposed presaging in the Jewish prophets - just look at how successful that enterprise was among the original Evangelists and their contemporaneous Second Temple Jews. Far more Gentiles, lacking any knowledge whatsoever of the Tanakh, embraced the Christian religion on its own merits than did any Jews persuaded by claims of Jesus having met prophetic criteria for the Messisah (which, any New Testament scholar or Jewish authority can tell you, rested upon some very shaky foundations and liberal interpretations of the Torah, Psalms and Neviim).

    I find Islamic claims of Muhammad having fulfilled alleged prophecies by Jesus in the Gospel of John (i.e. the predictions of the coming of the Paraclete or Holy Spirit) even less convincing, and indeed no competent scholar of antiquity would concur with these speculative, ahistorical claims.

    By the time we get to Babism in 1844 and the dawn of the Baha'i Faith, the Abrahamic penchant for grandiose eschatological pretensions has gone into overdrive and become like a humongous house of cards, because the Baha'i claims presuppose the validity of the Shi'ite claims which presuppose the validity of the alleged Christian claims which presuppose some very questionable interpretations of the Jewish Tanakh and so on...it's like infinite regression and circular reasoning founded upon exegetical misinterpretation upon exegetical misinterpretation over and over and over again.

    Arguing about the Second Coming of Jesus or whether this guy fulfilled that alleged prophecy and so forth, strike me as rather fruitless endeavours and have never in the entire scope of human history been the true judge of a religion's respective claim to divine truth on the part of most practitioners of any revealed faith.

    With that proviso aside, I am willing to discuss Catholic eschatology regarding the Second Coming.

    The first thing to state, plainly, is that millenarianism is a heresy in my Church. We do not anticipate an earthly Kingdom of God with a physical reign of Jesus in person, nor do we anticipate a secular messianism or a new religious dispensation.

    As Pope St. Gregory VII (1081) once wrote:


    "Who does not know that kings and dukes had their rulership from those who, not knowing God, strove from blind greed and intolerable presumption to dominate their equals, namely mankind, by pride, rapine, perfidy, murder, and crimes of all sorts, urged on by the ruler of the world, i.e., the devil?...

    For His Son, even as He is undoubtingly believed to be God and man despised a secular kingdom, which makes the sons of this world swell with pride, and came of His own will to the priesthood of the cross...

    Therefore all Christians who desire to reign with Christ should be warned not to strive to rule through ambition of worldly power..."

    (Gregory VII 1081: 552; see also Poole 1920: 201, fn. 5)

    To subject the Kingdom of God, which Jesus made clear before Pilate is not a temporal reality this side of the Eschaton for which his disciples could "fight" to create (as with an earthly realm) [John 18:36] and which, according to Christ's testimony in the Gospel of Luke is "not coming with things that can be observed, neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there!" [Luke 17:21], to subject this to expectations of fulfilment within a secular paradise is to equate the City of God with the City of Man wounded by original sin.

    This "fighting" to inaugurate a utopia "that can be observed" - has been a common theme with millenarian movements throughout history. There is the belief that the long awaited "utopia' can only be reached by utterly destroying the old temporal order, cleansing it through fire and blood in preparation of the new world, for which reason many radical millennial movements have deliberately pursued anarchy and violence in order to fulfill this prophetic dictum.

    If I might conclude with Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 5:17-18, where he explains how we are waiting,

    "for an eternal weight of glory beyond all measure, 18 because we look not at what can be seen but at what cannot be seen; for what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal."

    Pope St. John Paul II clearly stated during his Magisterium that our century would not be the last within temporal history, prior to the end of time. For in his apostolic letter on the Millenium, Tertio Millenio Adveniente in 1994 we find the following:


    "... The future of the world and the Church belongs to the younger generation, to those who, born in this century, will reach maturity in the next, the first century of the new millennium. Christ expects great things...If they succeed in following the road which he points out to them, they will have the joy of making their own contribution to his presence in the next century and in the centuries to come, until the end of time: "Jesus is the same yesterday, today and for ever"..."


    Notice the operative wording "in the next century and in the centuries to come".

    I have long disagreed with those Evangelical commentators who aver that we are near or at the "end of the world". So much has not happened yet.

    The full "times of the Gentiles" are not yet fulfilled; "all Israel" has not as we speak converted to Faith in Christ; an "era of peace and security" and a Second Pentecost before the advent of Antichrist has not thus far been vouchsafed to humanity, to name but a few signs of the times predicted in the New Testament and Catholic tradition.

    The period of peace before the final persecution/rebellion is both biblically and ecclesiastically evidenced, being related to the Katechon that restrains the full manifestation of the Antichrist.

    It is entirely distinct from the "millennium" in Revelation 20, which the tradition of the Church since St. Augustine at least has near-unanimously understood as referring to the reign of the saints in the Church Triumphant, which is therefore contiguous with the entire epoch beginning with the resurrection of Jesus and terminating with the Eschaton, in other words the present "age", as a term marking an indefinite period of time between the first advent, when Christ’s kingdom was established, and his second advent.

    During this span of time, writes Augustine, the devil is “prevented from the exercise of his whole power to seduce men” and the saints “reign with Christ” over his spiritual kingdom. When Christ returns, he will judge the living and the dead, and then will usher in the eternal state.

    The magisterium has never defined the “millennium” St. John saw in his vision. It has only rejected certain interpretations of the term discerned to be in error, which include the belief that Christ will return to earth at the climax of a long period of righteousness and peace arrived at by means of a "historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy". This is not an acceptable position for a Catholic to hold.

    The prophesised "period of peace", which I do absolutely believe in, is actually referring to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 (NRSV):


    "...Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers and sisters,[a] you do not need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When they say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them, as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and there will be no escape!..."

    This is the verse that St. Bonaventure relied upon in his exegesis to justify his belief in a future "great peace" before the Eschaton in his Collations on the Hexaemeron (1273), writing:


    "...The seventh time or age, that of quiet, begins with the shout of the angel who "swore through Him who lives forever and ever that there would be no more time; but in the days of the seventh angel the mystery of God will be completed" (Rev. 10:&-7)...It is necessary that One Ruler, a defender of the Church, arise. After him will come the darkness of tribulations...No one knows how long that time of great peace will last since ''when they said 'Peace and security,' then suddenly destruction came upon them" (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3)..."​


    The peace has nothing to do with a "spiritual millennium" that will persist until Christ's Second Coming after the fall of Antichrist or a progressive upward spike in holiness culminating in such an epoch, rather it has to do with the Katechon which/who restrains the full manifestation of Antichrist and the peace spoken of by St. Paul which precedes Antichrist.
     
    #31 Vouthon, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
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  12. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    Please read these verses from the Bible.

    "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;" -1Thessalonians 4:16

    "then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." -1Thessalonians 4:17


    It's very clear that on Christ 2nd coming, Christians will be “be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air” -1Thessalonians 4:17

    It did not specifically say that it was Baha’u’llah who would come for the 2nd time.
     
  13. Vouthon

    Vouthon Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
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    St. Hildegard of Bingen (1098 – 1179), also known as the Sibyl of the Rhine, is a medieval Doctor of the Church who, in her Liber Divinorum Operum (Book of Divine Works) allegedly received revelations about the future. Here is a brief outline of her schema, which consists of Five Ages under the sign of a different figurative animal:


    1. Fiery Hound

    Description of Time Period:

    Time of spiritual weakness or "debility" (tempus muliebre) --clergy are "perversi mercenarii" forerunners of Antichrist
    --both secular and spiritual leaders, simoniacs and heretics are corrupt --Church has fallen away from pristine apostolic discipline


    2. Yellow Lion


    Description of Time Period:


    Time of chastisement and disendowment of Church and purgation through tribulation for all
    --"tempus utile" or "tempus virile"
    --renewal of spiritual strength revealed through prophecy, abundance and peace-- vision of church renewal, world unity
    --conversion of large numbers of pagans and Jews


    3. Pale Horse

    Description of Time Period:

    Time of sorrows

    --Church polluted
    --persecution of Christians by heathens
    --Christians saved by miracle and conversion of heathens
    --Papacy and Empire dispersed
    --Church returns to pristine discipline --renewal of spiritual strength again revealed through prophecy, abundance and peace but also heresies cropping up everywhere in anticipation of the coming of Antichrist


    4. Black Pig

    Description of Time Period:

    --Reign of heretics and forerunners of Antichrist
    --many Christians desert orthodoxy
    --moral decay and spiritual decline
    --signs of the End

    5. Grey Wolf


    Description of Time Period:

    Antichrist's "ministry"
    --persecution of faithful and traditional eschatological events

    Death of Antichrist
    Second Coming and Last Judgement

    The summaries below are from the "capitula" (composed sometime in the decade after the work’s completion, likely by one of Hildegard’s close secretaries or aides to frame each chapter of her Visions and summarize its contents). I've added what belongs to what age in brackets (or rather when each age begins/ends) to make them easier to navigate:

      • Justice, moral integrity, and the dignity of the virtues grew stronger through the prophets from the days of the flood until the Lord’s coming, and then they gleamed for a long time in the Church through the apostles and teachers—but though now they are corrupted, after these days that languish in injustice, [Fiery Dog] they will again be reformed among people before the end and after many tribulations.
      • For when the heavenly Judge once receives Justice’s complaint, he will bring his vengeance upon the transgressors of equity, and in particular upon the wicked leaders of the Church through many disastrous judgments, until, purged by penitence in the trial they have earned, they recover their senses; and thus each rank will be restored to uprightness and returned to the honor of its dignity. [Yellow Lion]
      • When the ordinance of justice and peace has been settled by God’s vengeance and the correction of transgressors, tranquility will gleam before the Lord’s second coming just as it had before his first, and some part even of the Jews will be converted and will rejoice and confess that he has come whom now they deny.
      • The words of the prophet Isaiah attesting to the Lord’s first coming (Is 4:2),[17] which will be most especially fulfilled before his second coming with the illumination of the Jews
      • Because of the restoration of Justice, the various ranks of the Church will enjoy for a time in the next-to-last days both a great plenty of temporal things and a great abundance of spiritual goods [End of Yellow Lion]
      • But because people attribute this quiet peacetime and fruitful abundance to themselves and not to God and meet once more with lethargy when it comes to religion, so many tribulations will again follow as have never before seethed within the world...[Pale Horse]
      • For in that time, when the Christian people has been driven to repentance and exhausted by many afflictions for their sins, divine grace will come to their aid through many miracles, just as it once did for God’s people of old; and after their enemies are subdued, it will join a great multitude of the pagans to their faith.
      • In those days, as the Roman Emperors fall away from their pristine strength, the imperial power in their hands will over a short time diminish and fail, and even the mitre of the apostolic office will be divided, and different masters or archbishops will replace the others in various places.
      • Again, in that time, after wickedness has been put down and justice revived, honorable discipline and the laws of ancient customs will spring forth anew and be observed, and there will be many prophets and the hidden things of the Scriptures will lie open to the wise—nevertheless, everywhere heresies will bubble up to declare that the Antichrist’s coming is near. [End of Pale Horse]
      • On the kind of judgments of the divine power that are to be manifested near the end of the world, especially because then a very great portion of humanity will abandon the integrity of the catholic faith and be converted to the son of perdition. [Black Pig]
      • On the conception and origin of the Antichrist—filled up from the very beginning with a diabolical spirit and kept hidden and raised in secluded places, until he reaches the age of manhood; both in the world and in the Church, there will be in those days a great disturbance and uncertainty of both affairs and the seasons. [Grey Wolf]
      • The ancient enemy, who conquered the first man by seducing him, only to be conquered by Christ the Man, will assume that he can again win through another man, and so flood the Antichrist (with God’s just permission) with all his malice and press upon him to fight against the catholic faith and destroy Christ’s teaching.
     
    #33 Vouthon, Feb 26, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  14. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    In my circles, we don't believe he has returned yet.
     
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  15. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yeah, and Christianity established by John, Paul, and Simon don't know how prophecy is fulfilled within the Tanakh properly; so would dismiss both for not building precept, upon precept.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  16. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    It will take time for the coming of Baha’u’llah to be fully appreciated just like it did when Jesus first arose to proclaim His message of love.

    Baha’u’llah has come to teach unity in an age that desperately needs it and has brough both teachings and the blueprint to establish the Kingdom of God on earth - a world spiritual civilisation.

    This will not happen overnight as with Jesus.

    Like Christ, Baha’u’llah was tortured and rejected and also suffered exile for 40 years.

    Isaiah 11 1-10 Word for Word refers to Baha’u’llah.

    Note it mentions God’s Mountain and His resting place. Jesus has no resting place as there is no body. And also the wolf and the lamb. Since Jesus appeared, contending sects have risen to over 40,000 with no wolf and lamb lying together in peace. Yet with the Revelation of Baha’u’llah we do see ‘the wolf and the lamb’, previous contending and warring sects joining together as ‘one fold’. Baha’is are from Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Buddhist and Babi Faith but yet they do not give up their former beliefs as Baha’u’llah is the Promised One of all these religions.

    The Baha’i World Community is the ‘one shepherd and one fold’ foretold by Jesus we believe.

    Baha’u’llah is a ‘new name’. Jesus says in Revelation He will have a new name. The followers of the return of Jesus won’t be called Christians anymore.

    Baha’u’llah’s resting place is indeed glorious and is a UNESCO World Heritage site.

    BahaiPictures.com - Photographs of the Baha'i Holy Places

    Baha’u’llah was a descendant of both Jesse and Abraham.

    The Baha’i World Centre is established on Mount Carmel, God’s Vineyard. “And Carmel and Sharon shall see the glory of God”

    But Baha’u’llah was Persian wasn’t He? Yet we read in Jeremiah 49:38 “I will set my throne in Elam”.

    Baha’u’llah ‘smote the earth with the rod of His mouth’. He wrote to all the kings, queens and religious leaders rebuking them and foretelling their downfall.

    Isaiah 11:1-10 KJVS

    As I said, it will take time for people to take this in and see how wonderful a thing God has done.

    And this verse from Habakkuk perfectly sums up the reaction to the coming of Baha’u’llah, so wondrous that people just cannot believe it could be true.

    Habakkuk 1:5 KJV

    [5] Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you .
     
  17. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    Matthew 16:28
    “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
     
  18. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    God doesn't return. God doesn't come and go here, or there.



    Mark 9:1
    And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”


    or if you prefer

    26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

    the body is a grave from which the light arises.

    Daniel 12:2
    Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Isaiah 26:19
    But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise-- let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy-- your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
     
  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    God the CPU manifests reality; that is Yeshua's father the God Most High (El Elyon)...

    Arch Angels (Elohim/Avatars) have come in human form throughout recorded history.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  20. Epic Beard Man

    Epic Beard Man Bearded Philosopher

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    According to Muhammad and Islamic theology you're wrong
     
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