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Featured Christ Has returned, what should have we looked for?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Feb 26, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
  2. No

    34 vote(s)
    58.6%
  3. Maybe

    1 vote(s)
    1.7%
  4. I'm Fence sitting

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  5. Just a popcorn question

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  6. Definitly never

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  7. He has Come

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The reason I'd say Yeshua will be Messiah is because he fulfilled making the Snare and Curse written into the Tanakh; the Messiah will initiate the Messianic Age According to most eschatologies...

    This means that the person brings a fire that cleanses reality, and after we have a new world with no death; since that has not happened yet, the Messiah still has not come.
    ,
    Proving Yeshua as the Messiah

    A World Saviour or Cleanser?

    In my opinion.:innocent:
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Why do Baha'i's quote scripture, only to put their own twisted spin on it? You don't really believe it or else you would accept ALL that it teaches instead of selecting bits that appear to support your beliefs.

    Let's just take that scripture in context....
    Jesus said.....
    11 “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city."

    Jesus instructed his disciples to go out into the world to preach about his kingdom to people of all nations.(Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) In the first century, when those instructions were first given, something is obvious.....a visit to villages and cities was part of a Christian's activity. All were to be evangelizers....bringing Christ's message to the people, regardless of their nationality or beliefs.

    How did they conduct this activity so that no one was missed? They used the same method that emergency services use to warn of an approaching disaster....they went "from house to house". (Acts 5:42; Acts 20:20)

    When was the last time a Baha'i came to my door with "the good news of God's kingdom"? Ummmm...that would be never. [​IMG]

    As I said...it isn't what you twist from the Bible that matters...its what you ignore.

    Well, actually we don't share anything. Your "Christ" has nothing to do with mine.

    I have committed myself to the real Jesus...not to someone I see as an imposter. Sorry.
     
  3. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    We must add though, it is also right to believe this, if we do not limit Christ to a single material flesh body of 2000 years ago.

    This is the foundation of this thread. That it is the spirit that gives life, the flesh profits not a thing.

    Hope your fast.days are great, all good here in the land down under.

    Regards Tony
     
  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Agreed, like they enjoy the flowery words; yet not any of the soil, that made it grow.
    The Wool, yet not the Flock.
    The Bread, yet not the Harvest.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #324 wizanda, Mar 4, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    I am pretty sure we all will be greatly amazed, most likely dumb founded. The more I read of Baha'u'llah, the smaller one gets and the greater becomes God.

    It is as if we only exist as a whole. Personally I think as an individual we will merge into a yet to be perceived oneness like a body working as a whole?

    Regards Tony
     
    #325 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Mar 4, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  6. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    It is Baha'u'llahs Message that is quoted in our replies. Baha'u'llah has claimed and shown He has the Authority of God, the given 'Christ', the Holy Spirit.

    As a lover of Christ, we know it is not all about the end product. We till the soil, tend the flocks, Harvest what crops are ready and then make the bread. That way all can enjoy in the Labours.

    Regards Tony
     
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  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Any system of devotion on a single focal point, can create a sense of Oneness between us.
    I do appreciate the good efforts by the Baha'i to be righteous; unfortunately your use of those Biblical metaphors is upside down, because of not knowing the context well enough.

    If Baha'i was a continuation of the same line we see, then it would show in the metaphoric usage, and it would be good if they knew the texts globally, as your metaphor would imply.
    • Soil = Word
    • Flock = Israel
    • Harvest = Judgement Day
    • Bread = Word
    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It is not right to deny the Baha'i Faith, according to the Bab:

    “As to those who deny Him Who is the Sublime Gate of God,” the Báb, for His part, has affirmed in the Qayyúm-i-Asmá, “for them We have prepared, as justly decreed by God, a sore torment. And He, God, is the Mighty, the Wise.” And further, “O peoples of the earth! I swear by your Lord! Ye shall act as former generations have acted. Warn ye, then, yourselves of the terrible, the most grievous vengeance of God. For God is, verily, potent over all things.” And again: “By My glory! I will make the infidels to taste, with the hands of My power, retributions unknown of anyone except Me, and will waft over the faithful those musk-scented breaths which I have nursed in the midmost heart of My throne.” The Promised Day Is Come, p. 4
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I always like to go to the Writings because that gets us closest to the Truth... :)

    “And now concerning thy question whether human souls continue to be conscious one of another after their separation from the body. Know thou that the souls of the people of Bahá, who have entered and been established within the Crimson Ark, shall associate and commune intimately one with another, and shall be so closely associated in their lives, their aspirations, their aims and strivings as to be even as one soul. They are indeed the ones who are well-informed, who are keen-sighted, and who are endued with understanding. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

    The people of Bahá, who are the inmates of the Ark of God, are, one and all, well aware of one another’s state and condition, and are united in the bonds of intimacy and fellowship. Such a state, however, must depend upon their faith and their conduct. They that are of the same grade and station are fully aware of one another’s capacity, character, accomplishments and merits. They that are of a lower grade, however, are incapable of comprehending adequately the station, or of estimating the merits, of those that rank above them. Each shall receive his share from thy Lord. Blessed is the man that hath turned his face towards God, and walked steadfastly in His love, until his soul hath winged its flight unto God, the Sovereign Lord of all, the Most Powerful, the Ever-Forgiving, the All-Merciful.”

    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 169-170
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Sorry, I am not familiar with those scriptures, but if they are in the Tanakh, why don't Jews believe in Yeshua? Are you really saying that the Christians know the Tanakh better than the Jews?
    That is clearly what Baha'u'llah did.
    "This means"..... How do you know what it means? That is the 100-dollar question.

    As an outsider looking in, I cannot understand how it is possible to parse out which Christians or Jews (or others) have the true beliefs and which ones have the false beliefs. They are all reading from the same Bible so it is all a matter of interpretation, isn't it? What else can it possibly be? [​IMG]

    The obvious implication of all the disagreements among Christians or Jews (or others) is that Bible verses can have more than one meaning. How can anyone know they have the correct meaning? How can anyone say the meaning they assign is correct and the other meanings others assign are wrong? Why do people think they are uniquely qualified to interpret the Bible? The fact that people think that only they are right and everyone else is wrong can only be attributed to ego. The fact that people are not even willing to consider any possibilities other than their own interpretation can be attributed to (a) ego and/or (b) they want what they want to be true, and they really do not care what is really true. This is very sad because they could be wrong. :(

    Are the Baha'is wrong? If someone could prove that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are not who they claimed to be I would walk away in a heartbeat. Being a Baha'i is no easier than being an early disciple of Jesus. :eek:

    But using private interpretations of the Bible to try to prove that the Bab and Baha'u'llah are false will not work, for the reasons I gave above. There are too many different interpretations so nobody can say that only theirs is correct, logically speaking, because they cannot prove that it is correct. As such, it is just their personal opinion that they are right and others are wrong.

    The starting premise of all Christians is that only the same man Jesus can be the Messiah, but that is only according to private interpretations of the Bible.

    Jesus never promised to return. Jesus said His work was finished here (John 17:4) and he was no more in the world (John 17:11). Jesus also said that His Kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36) which means that Jesus is not going to come back and set up a kingdom on earth, as Christians believe He will. Why do Christians ignore these verses and their obvious meanings?

    Besides all of what I said above, you cannot use older revelations of God to prove or disprove a newer revelation of God because one cannot put new wine into old wine sacs and expect it to fit. That is why the Jews rejected Jesus. Some of what He brought was new, so it did not fit with their understandings of their scriptures and what they were expecting the Messiah to be like according to their prophecies. Jesus partially fulfilled their prophecies so Jesus was a Messiah, He just was not the Messiah associated with the Messianic Age.

    Luke 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.

    Matthew 9:17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
     
  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Agreed, we see that is our One God.

    The split comes because each of us has forgotten to look for the light of the Sun in all things. Look for the Good Qualities and we have found all that is Christ.

    Regards Tony
     
  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    That is the quote that formed the opinion I gave. :);)

    Regards Tony
     
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  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why do Christians quote scripture, only to put their own spin on it? Why can’t you understand that you are doing the same exact thing, putting your own spin on it? Why is our spin twisted, just because we disagree with your spin?
    Why can’t you understand that you are doing the same exact thing, selecting bits that appear to support your beliefs?

    All that it teaches? It does not teach anything until we interpret the meaning of it.

    Why do Christians think that only they know the meanings of the scriptures, that is the 100-dollar question they won’t answer because it would make them look arrogant.

    Without honesty, there can be no fruitful dialogue, but then maybe that is not what most Christians want, since they believe they already have all the fruit they need. That’s fine, but don’t pretend that only you can interpret the Bible correctly and that Baha’is, most of whom were formerly Christians, do not know how to interpret the Bible. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Your spin is formed from the wrong son of Abraham. The promises were to be fulfilled through Isaac and Jacob...not Ishmael. This has been brought to your attention how many times now??

    Jesus said, "Salvation begins with the Jews".....not Islam. Am I getting through here? [​IMG] You have no basis for your beliefs from the beginning.

    Your interpretation is in error IMO because it disagrees with everything the Bible says..... [​IMG] You point blank deny what Jesus taught.....ignoring everything that doesn't fit in with what you want to believe. Cherry picking scripture doesn't make your prophet into 'Jesus Christ returned'.....it is based on nothing but the say-so of a deluded man.
    You are free to believe him....you are free to be indoctrinated by his teachings....and you are free to be wrong....but there is much at stake in this. If you teach a different "truth" to the one Jesus taught, you have lost everything.

    Paul wrote.....
    "6 I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news. 7 Not that there is another good news; but there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to distort the good news about the Christ. 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, I now say again, Whoever is declaring to you as good news something beyond what you accepted, let him be accursed."

    Christ said he would be "with" his disciples in the most important work that he assigned....that of preaching the good news (gospel) of his kingdom. (Matthew 28:19-20)
    He said "And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14)

    This "witness" (or testimony) was the only message Jesus commanded to be preached. There was no other message....there was no other man who could be the "Christ" because Jesus fulfilled all that was necessary for the salvation of mankind almost 2,000 years ago. We are staring down the barrel of "the end" right now....as we will all see soon enough. The next time we "see" Jesus, it will be as our judge. If we have put our trust in the wrong man, it will mean losing salvation. I believe that there is no room for error here. :(
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That won’t work because Baha’u’llah did not come out of Ishmael.... How many times have I said that now, at least 10 times. I even provided the genealogy chart. :rolleyes:
    Genealogy of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh
    It did begin with the Jews ... We already got salvation through Jesus; we do not need to get it again through Jesus. There is no reason for the same Jesus to return and confer salvation again. This is all about the Return of Jesus, is it not?

    You do not know my beliefs so you cannot say I have no basis for them. You say that only because you believe they conflict with your beliefs, and they do... but they do not conflict with the Bible, only with what you think the Bible says...
    The Bible does not SAY anything because books do not talk.... It needs to be interpreted and we assign meanings to it.
    No, you point blank deny it ignoring everything that doesn't fit in with what you want to believe, cherry picking scripture to try to prove already believe because you cannot even consider the possibility that you could be wrong... So much for test the spirits (1 John 4:1-6)... Baha’u’llah passes that test because He confessed that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. ;)
    If you deny what Baha’u’llah wrote then you have lost. No Baha’is’ got indoctrinated because there is nobody to indoctrinate us, no clergy. It is the Christians who have been indoctrinated by the Church.
    That was true for those days, but it was never meant to apply to all time; so if anyone during the dispensation of Jesus declared something beyond what Jesus had declared they would be accursed.
    Funny thing, Moses said the same thing, and then the NT was added to the OT... hmmm.

    Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

    Baha’u’llah said the same thing about His word... He said that if another man came and declared himself a Prophet before the full expiration of 1000 years from 1852, he would be a lying imposter... History repeats itself....
    That is exactly what happened. The Bible had been taught to all nations by the year 1844 and then the end of the old age was rolled up and the new age began. I have the research to back that up.
    The thing is, individuals and the world are in need of more than personal salvation... How utterly selfish to think that is all people need. Jesus said there were many things we need but we were not ready for them back when He said that. Baha'u'llah was the Spirit of truth who brought the many things the world needs to survive and thrive as well as what individuals need.

    John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
    You won’t SEE Jesus again because Jesus said He His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


    All those verses where Jesus said you would SEE the Son of man coming in the clouds with power and great glory refer to Baha’u’llah... That is why they are all written in the third person.

    To paraphrase Baha’u’llah, Son of man coming on the clouds means that the return of the Christ Spirit will appear in the form of another human being. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

    Mark 14: 62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


    The FIRST thing to note about all these verses is that none of them say “you will see ME coming.” Rather they refer to the Son of man in the third person. Why do you think that is? If Jesus planned to return and wanted people to recognize Him as Jesus, why didn’t Jesus say: Mark 13:26 “And then shall they see me coming in the clouds with great power and glory.”

    I will tell you why... It is because the Son of man refers to Baha’u’llah. Jesus was the Son of God and the Son of man; Baha’u’llah was the RETURN of the Son of man, with power and great glory..

    Moreover, Jesus never said He was going to sit on any thrones or rule the world, He said that His kingdom was not of this world.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
    I put my trust in both Jesus and Baha’u’llah so I have my bases covered. :D But by rejecting Baha’u’llah you are rejecting Jesus because Baha’u’llah is the return of the Spirit of Jesus... Note the word WE there.... That word refers to Jesus and Baha’u’lalh.

    “WE, verily, have come for your sakes, and have borne the misfortunes of the world for your salvation. Flee ye the One Who hath sacrificed His life that ye may be quickened? Fear God, O followers of the Spirit (Jesus), and walk not in the footsteps of every divine that hath gone far astray… Open the doors of your hearts. He Who is the Spirit (Jesus) verily, standeth before them. Wherefore keep ye afar from Him Who hath purposed to draw you nigh unto a Resplendent Spot? Say: We, in truth, have opened unto you the gates of the Kingdom. Will ye bar the doors of your houses in My face? This indeed is naught but a grievous error.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 92

    Please do not say I am not saved because I do not believe in the same Jesus you believe in because there is only one Jesus. Jesus did not specify HOW we were to believe in Him; the Church did that. :rolleyes:

    John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

    John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

    1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”


    “Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next. He, verily, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 87
     
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  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Before I reply to this, I wish to say that the Love of God is never to based on the promise of Salvation, this Salvation is always Gods Gift to give to whosoever God chooses to give it to. It is never assured as we never know our own end. Salvation now is a world wide Humanity Goal, it is bigger than self.

    Baha'u'llah has shown us It is the same Spirit, the flesh amounts to nothing. Thus to reject Baha'u'llah, is to reject Christ in all eternity and thus to fall into error.

    Salvation now lays in the acceptance of the returned Christ.

    "..Say: In that Day there is no refuge for any one save the command of God, and no salvation for any soul but God. Verily, this is the truth and there is naught after truth but manifest error." Baha'u'llah : The Tablet of the Branch - from BWF

    Abdul'baha has answered a question on this subject;

    SALVATION - You ask if, through the appearance of the kingdom of God, every soul hath been saved. "The Sun of Reality hath appeared to all the world. This luminous appearance is salvation and life; but only he who hath opened the eye of reality and who hath seen these lights will be saved." Abdu'l-Baha : Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section

    This explanation of Abdul'baha shows that if we have not acknowledged God in this day, we have become separated from God and lost eternal salvation;

    Question. -- It is said in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas "...whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed." What is the meaning of this verse?

    Answer. -- "This blessed verse means that the foundation of success and salvation is the knowledge of God, and that the results of the knowledge of God are the good actions which are the fruits of faith. If man has not this knowledge, he will be separated from God, and when this separation exists, good actions have not complete effect. This verse does not mean that the souls separated from God are equal, whether they perform good or bad actions. It signifies only that the foundation is to know God, and the good actions result from this knowledge. Nevertheless, it is certain that between the good, the sinners and the wicked who are veiled from God there is a difference. For the veiled one who has good principles and character deserves the pardon of God, while he who is a sinner, and has bad qualities and character, is deprived of the bounties and blessings of God. Herein lies the difference.
    Therefore, the blessed verse means that good actions alone, without the knowledge of God, cannot be the cause of eternal salvation, everlasting success, and prosperity, and entrance into the Kingdom of God. Abdu'l-Baha : Some Answered Questions

    The Bab has given a warning to the Christians that they Lost Salvation by not accepting Muhammad (Apostle of God) and that when Baha'u'llah was to come, all Salvation lays within the acceptance of Baha'u'llah, all else is the fire;

    "...RID thou thyself of all attachments to aught except God, enrich thyself in God by dispensing with all else besides Him, and recite this prayer:

    Say: God sufficeth all things above all things, and nothing in the heavens or in the earth or in whatever lieth between them but God, thy Lord, sufficeth. Verily, He is in Himself the Knower, the Sustainer, the Omnipotent.

    Regard not the all-sufficing power of God as an idle fancy. It is that genuine faith which thou cherishest for the Manifestation of God in every Dispensation. It is such faith which sufficeth above all the things that exist on the earth, whereas no created thing on earth besides faith would suffice thee. If thou art not a believer, the Tree of divine Truth would condemn thee to extinction. If thou art a believer, thy faith shall be sufficient for thee above all things that exist on earth, even though thou possess nothing.
    It is recorded in a tradition that of the entire concourse of the Christians no more than seventy people embraced the Faith of the Apostle of God. The blame falleth upon their doctors, for if these had believed, they would have been followed by the mass of their countrymen. Behold, then, that which hath come to pass! The learned men of Christendom are held to be learned by virtue of their safeguarding the teaching of Christ, and yet consider how they themselves have been the cause of men's failure to accept the Faith and attain unto salvation! Is it still thy wish to follow in their footsteps? The followers of Jesus submitted to their clerics to be saved on the Day of Resurrection, and as a result of this obedience they eventually entered into the fire, and on the Day when the Apostle of God appeared they shut themselves out from the recognition of His exalted Person. Dost thou desire to follow such divines?
    Nay, by God, be thou neither a divine without discernment nor a follower without discernment, for both of these shall perish on the Day of Resurrection. Rather it behooveth thee to be a discerning divine, or to walk with insight in the way of God by obeying a true leader of religion.......: The Bab : Selections from the Writings of the Bab

    Personal Salvation is not held by the followers of Christ anymore, they have rejected Christ 3 times in the last 2000 years.

    It is your decision if we continue looking at Prophecy, or we can leave it there if you wish?

    Regards Tony
     
    #336 Tony Bristow-Stagg, Mar 5, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  17. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The reason Christians and Jews both see different meanings, is rather than read everything in full context; they both suit what they'd like to hear in the text...

    Thus Christians only seek reward that jesus died for them, and miss the bits that say it isn't allowed...

    Jews only read the bits about them being a chosen people, and miss anything saying they're cut off.
    When we look at all the contexts, and not ignore any additional data, then the Bible is like math, if something doesn't add up the errors show.
    There is still death in the world, there isn't world peace, not everyone in the world is Godly, and all the ungodly haven't been removed.
    Christians don't have a clue, they are heavily misled by the fake teachings of John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros)... Thus they have huge errors in comprehension just like the Jews, and Bahais.
    You shouldn't be sorry, i just posted explaining it for you again here.

    Proving Yeshua as the Messiah
    As a Baha'i this is shocking, there are multiple eschatologies in the world, and they're all saying the same thing, if you're only taking one piece out of a jigsaw, of course you'd be confused which way up it goes.
    Yeshua didn't fulfill any of the Rabbinic Jewish expectations of the Messiah, and instead claimed to be YHVH son of the Most High, which they didn't understand anymore since the return from the Babylonian Exile.

    Yeshua fulfilled the prophecies he was meant to for the time period, which was cutting off the Jews because of his death for 30 pieces of silver, put in the Potters Field in the House of Israel (Zechariah 11).
    Actually that is exactly what we have to do, every precept should be built upon the previous precepts, like building a house with solid foundations...

    The only way to check if a plummet line is spot on, is to look, and check if it follows the same line all the way along.
    This has been repeatedly shown in the thread; you're not doing the work reading the source texts, they've claimed support them, when they don't.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I can agree with that because that is what I have observed.
    Are you saying you have done the math so you know exactly what the Messiah will be and do?
    Do you, like Christians, believe that physical death will be eliminated and that physical bodies will live forever on earth? What verses support this contention?

    Are you saying that world peace will come during the lifetimes of the Messiah? What verses support this contention?

    Are you saying that everyone will be Godly and all the ungodly will be removed during the lifetime of the Messiah? What verses support this contention?
    So who is it that doesn’t have huge errors in comprehension? Saying that they have huge errors means you must know what the errors are so that implies that you have no errors in comprehension. Is that what you are saying? What makes you more qualified to interpret the Bible than the other people? Millions of people all over the world have been interpreting the Bible for centuries on end. Are you saying none of them know what it means?

    Remember, I am just an innocent bystander, I do not know much of the Bible, and I just want to know the truth...

    Also keep in mind I do not believe that the Bible is the infallible truth from God because I know that is virtually impossible since it was not written by (a) a Manifestation of God or (b) God. Please do not tell me the Tanakh and the Bible do not have any transcription or translation errors because that is virtually impossible. So if there is one error, just even one word in a verse transcribed and/or translated incorrectly that can mess up your math formula... There could be more than word in more than one verse that was transcribed and/or translated incorrectly and then so much for the math formula because it only takes one mistake to nullify the equation... Then your whole theory about the Messiah will be comes tumbling down like a house of cards.

    Do you understand what I mean? Religion is not really my thing; I have an educational background in psychology and homeopathy so I am very analytical.
    I am not sure what you mean by that, taking one piece out of a jigsaw and being confused?

    That cuts both ways... If you are only looking at the Tanakh and the Bible then you are missing other parts of the puzzle about God, namely the newer pieces of the puzzle, the Qur’an and the Writings of the Bab and Baha’u’llah. There really is no more reason to believe the Tanakh and the Bible were revealed by God than that the Qur’an was revealed by God; leave Baha’i out of this for now, it is still too new. But you must know that as of 2010, 22% of the world population were Muslims and about 33% were Christians and only about .2% were Jews. By the year 2050 there will be as many Muslims as Christians worldwide.

    Logically speaking, if those newer revelations are from God they are more likely to have new information that is more accurate than information that was revealed many thousands of years ago. What makes you think that scriptures written thousands of years ago are all we will ever get from an Almighty God? Are God’s hands tied, prevented from revealing more Truth? Why would a benevolent God leave man alone for thousands of years? Mind you, those religions are doing nothing to help the world situation such as it has become.
    From what I know, I can agree with that, and that is one reason why the Jews did not recognize Yeshua.
    I agree the successive revelations build upon the previous ones but that does not mean you can test the truth of the newer ones using the older ones... You are not the builder so you do not know what the new building is supposed to look like by looking only at the foundation... How do you know how it should line up? Only God knows that.

    Moreover, if you are trying to make a new revelation fit into your interpretation of the prophecies of older scriptures for the Messiah and your interpretations are wrong, it will never fit. That is what the Jews and Christians have done.

    Another way to go about it is to look at the new scriptures and see what they say about the older scriptures.
    I do not know what you are referring to... What source texts? Support whom?
     
  19. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yes, have a very good case if you read this article... Proving Yeshua as the Messiah
    There are loads of verses that state this, not only in the Bible; yet in Zoroastrian, and Hindu texts as well... 15 Bible verses about Death, Defeated
    Isaiah 2:1-4, Isaiah 9:4-7, Isa 11:1-10, Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23, etc..
    Jeremiah 31:34, Isaiah 11:9, Habakkuk 2:14, Isaiah 66:18, Zechariah 2:11, Isaiah 40:5, etc...

    Seriously why are you asking me these questions, most of them are straightforward, and anyone truly interested will find them by doing a quick Google/Bible search.
    I'm sent from Heaven before the Tribulation; so already had the answers to some of it before starting.
    Everyone has huge errors in comprehension, and though i get a lot of the prophecy; I'm always open minded to i do not know, and there could be additional factors i might have missed.
    Some might get odd bits right, yet often people miss some of the biggest factors due to personal biases, before logic.
    I'm always willing to reanalyzes the data entirely if someone shows me new data; others just continue with their religious presuppositions, regardless of additional new data.
    Zoroastrian, and Hindu texts are also related to the prophetic fulfillment, and thus the ideas of the world being cleansed by fire is explain by all the ancient texts...

    The more modern religions have tried to down play what is meant to happen.
    I don't; God is the CPU that manifests reality, if we're not literally connected to it, and listening; then we don't know God...

    Why would we want to follow some book, and not actually have any connection to its source.
    Because chapter 16 of the Bhagavad Gita says the Asura (demons) are sent here, Zoroastrianism says here is a battle between light and dark, where demons control things, and the Tanakh says that here is near Hell, where the demons have taken over rule of this earth.

    Thus when God sends servants down here, and they get murdered; with the demons making religions about how it makes them saints for accepting it, then clearly things are upside down.
    God revealed this in the prophets, explaining what was to take place... So we have to start that way first, since their prior prophecies have been shown to be true, they have more validity.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
    #339 wizanda, Mar 5, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  20. The Kilted Heathen

    The Kilted Heathen Torolf Brucesson

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    Seeing the good in things is one half of the coin. If you fail to acknowledge darkness, or blind yourself to it and focus on the good, then you're fooling yourself. Yes, some people are more conscious of human rights and equality, but that doesn't do for much when it just garners a Facebook Like and a week's worth of "campaigning for change". The people who actually do anything about it are few and far between, and the world has a long way to go.

    Being spiritual has nothing to do with being realistic.

    Fantastic. What are you doing to bring that about?

    Don't assume to speak for what I think, lover. For the record I will have you know that I don't believe in ends, least of all the end of the world. Neither have I tossed in any towel, or given up on finding solutions. For solutions we've got to get our hands dirty, though; sitting around dreaming of baha'i-led golden ages just isn't going to cut the mustard.

    We are nowhere near a "global village"; where did you get that notion? Was it from all the wars being waged, active and cold? Was it from the various political mistrusts and rivalries? Or was it the constant race to become the world's top dog superpower?

    Sure doesn't bloody well seem like it. Even with baha'u'llah the world's a chaotic thing. Putting on rose-colored glasses doesn't change that.
     
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