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Featured Christ Has returned, what should have we looked for?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by TransmutingSoul, Feb 26, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
  2. No

    34 vote(s)
    58.6%
  3. Maybe

    1 vote(s)
    1.7%
  4. I'm Fence sitting

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  5. Just a popcorn question

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  6. Definitly never

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  7. He has Come

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    You read it looking to prove an already pre-conveived point.

    A Baha'i Theocracy has no definition in todays thoughts or language. I offered it is better stated and thought as what it is in the current embryonic stage and that is the 'Baha'i Administrative Order', which has no part in the Governments of this day, but will always be offering paths to our unity.

    That document contains many thoughts outside the agenda, that you have offered may be the goal, and none with the intent you do offer.

    I need say no more than that, in the end I am happy to leave it at that.

    I wish you well always Oldbadger, I hope you remain well, Regards Tony
     
  2. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    "And Abraham said unto God, Oh that Ishmael might live before thee!" -Genesis 17:18

    "And God said, Nay, but Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his seed after him. -Genesis 17:19

    "And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation." -Genesis 17:20

    "But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year." -Genesis 17:21

    “But my covenant will I establish with Isaac” So, from Isaac to Jacob to the 12 tribes of Israel and one of them is Judah and from Judah to King David and to the Lord Jesus and this is what God was saying in Genesis 21:12 “For in Isaac shall thy seed be called." And Paul in Galatians 3:16 “And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

    As you can read it, from Isaac to Christ. IOW, Christ is “thy Seed” in Genesis 21:12, the Old Covenant and to Paul “And to thy seed, which is Christ.” –Galatians 3:16, the New Covenant.

    Or from the Old Covenant Christ was prophesied as “thy Seed” and from the New Covenant this prophecy was fulfilled “And to thy seed, which is Christ.”

    "And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad/Ishmael, and because of thy handmaid/Hagar. In all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice. For in Isaac shall thy seed be called." -Genesis 21:12

    “Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” –Galatians 3:16

    Ishmael line or descendants to this very day is considered part of the Gentiles or the New Covenant and were NEVER part of God's Old Covenant with the Israelites or Abrahamic covenant, if that’s what you meant by “If Paul was correct, Ishmael was in the covenant”

    "For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage." -Galatians 5:1

    "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing." -Galatians 5:2

    "Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law." -Galatians 5:3

    What Paul was saying here is, if Gentiles would follow the Law of Moses by means of receiving circumcision "Christ will profit you nothing" that they MUST follow the "whole law" of Moses or "Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them."

    "For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them." -Galatians 3:10
     
  3. Kelly of the Phoenix

    Kelly of the Phoenix Well-Known Member

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    Technically, it makes more sense to sacrifice Ishmael. It was the first born to be sacrificed and that's not Isaac.
     
  4. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Who could rule over all the people of the world better? God, through a divinely guided administration or a secular government not guided by God?
     
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  5. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    It becomes more complicated for Christains when we read the Koran and the Baha'i Writings. It appears there is an error in the records as to the sacrifice, Baha'u'llah has confirmed the Koran in this matter;

    "That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 75-76.

    This is some more on this -

    The Eternal Mystery of Sacrifice

    Baha'u'llah wrote a tablet on this matter;

    Tablet to Hájí Mírzá Kamálu'd-Dín

    You will note it is a "Station if Scarifuce" given by the 'Word of God' to both Ishmael and Isaac. Christ did not address this matter directly.

    Regards Tony
     
    #265 TransmutingSoul, Mar 3, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
  6. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    The bible gives that answer in Prophecy, the Lords Prayer. "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

    God has allowed and has continued to allow man to rule themselves, providing they do it within the Laws given for the age they live in.

    The future will see a return of Monarchy and justly elected governments. Man will rule and will use Gods Guidance. There will be a time when no man will want to govern and be only elected on merit.

    Abdul'baha has written, so this will happen;

    "..When the laws of the Most Holy Book are enforced, contentions and disputes will find a final sentence of absolute justice before a general tribunal of the nations and kingdoms, and the difficulties that appear will be solved. The five continents of the world will form but one, the numerous nations will become one, the surface of the earth will become one land, and mankind will be a single community. The relations between the countries—the mingling, union and friendship of the peoples and communities—will reach to such a degree that the human race will be like one family and kindred. The light of heavenly love will shine, and the darkness of enmity and hatred will be dispelled from the world. Universal peace will raise its tent in the center of the earth, and the blessed Tree of Life will grow and spread to such an extent that it will overshadow the East and the West. Strong and weak, rich and poor, antagonistic sects and hostile nations—which are like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and kid, the lion and the calf—will act toward each other with the most complete love, friendship, justice and equity. The world will be filled with science, with the knowledge of the reality of the mysteries of beings, and with the knowledge of God..."

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66

    Regards Tony
     
    #266 TransmutingSoul, Mar 3, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
  7. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    I see that pasage as Prophecy of Muhammad and the 12 Imams, the Message of Islam.

    Regards Tony
     
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  8. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I can't see that. If you're interested, let me explain. In order to test my studies in Historic Jesus the very first places that I would go to (have gone to) is extreme atheist websites, and with a foundation of research (much of it gathered here) I've never once had to lose heart in the face of myther debate.

    Your post was imo a typical example of 'redirected anger', and it doesn't work here.

    Well, how lucky for you. I should be a push-over then. True?

    I think they speak out against Bahai because they flat don't credit it, and I've got to say that I now don't trust it very much either. The flowery rhetoric hides the double-think, imo.

    How little you seem to know about the Bahai main objective.....

    To judge a body accurately one needs to gain sight of its AIMS and OBJECTIVES, which may well not come about for centuries, but if we can perceive these then we may see the real Bahai World, and have voice now, before it's too late?

    Here:-
    Whereas former Faiths inspired hearts and illumined souls, they eventuated in formal religions with an ecclesiastical organization, creeds, rituals and churches, while the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, likewise renewing man's spiritual life, will gradually produce the institutions of an ordered society, fulfilling not merely the function of the churches of the past but also the function of the civil state.
    UHJ

    Bingo!

    Yes...... a facility given by God?
    As a Deist I cannot accept my question, above, but fate has surely given a voice to all, and that is fair. Maybe Bahai would censor such voices? It has certainly withheld many translations, and has hidden the real truths (one shown above) in volumes of rhetoric.

    But I can tell you that on RF even Bahai critics are kind, possibly more kind than Bahai deserves?
     
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  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Does it make sense the a real and Holy God would ask any man to sacrifice his son? If I was Abraham, I'd get a second opinion.
     
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  10. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    There is no Bingo here. We have tried to explain it is an Organic Process that build in hearts.

    I can assure you there is no Goal to take over rule of this earth, I have been a Baha'i for 33 years and all I wish to do is build the Unity of Humanity, that all men can have a fair Go. This is how we live our lives.

    There is no, and I say absolutely no, want in a Baha'i mind for rule of earth or of any people, people that do have these ambitions in the Baha'i Faith find it hard to adjust and those that do not adjust become the ones that withdrew and that you now quote.

    I can explain this further if you wish.

    Regards Tony
     
  11. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    So let's see... Genesis? What do Baha'is believe is literally true about Genesis? Creation? No. The Flood? No. That people lived to be hundreds of years old? No. How about the Tower of Babel? I doubt it. How about the Nephilim? Questionable. How about God asking such a thing as to sacrifice a person's son? How did God ask it? With an audible voice or just put it into the heart of Abraham?

    All of Genesis is a great mythological background for a people and their religion. But those people are the Jews. Why do Baha'is take some of the things as real and true, especially prophecy, and other things that contradict their beliefs as traditions of men or symbolic? The meaning of the sacrifice to the Jews needs to have Isaac and that is what their Scriptures say. Persian and Arabic religions prefer it to be Ishmael. Hmmm? I wonder why?

    So for the Baha'is to be correct in this, all copies of the Torah that had Ishmael would have to have been destroyed. All copies from then on would have to have Isaac. All religious leaders and scribes would have to be in on it. And all of them, and all the people that knew of the supposed "original" teaching would have to be in on the secret. Really? Baha'is say that the next manifestation in line correct the mistakes and superstitious beliefs of the previous religion. Why didn't Jesus mention it. And why did God "inspire" the NT writers to pretend it was Isaac?

    One of the signs for the coming of the Christ is truth. Things like this make me question the truth of the Baha'i Faith. It's too bad. You guys have a lot of great teachings... just a few really bad ones.
     
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  12. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Oldbadger, this is not what this is all about. I would just like to know we can speak on these matters, without the cloud of some conspiracy being perpetrated by the Message of Baha'u'llah.

    It is offered in Love only. We believe it is the remedy required by Humanity. That you, all and us (Humanity) would greatly benefit from.

    Regards Tony
     
  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Then does that mean we should be ruled by God... and our leaders should be men of faith that will uphold the Laws of God?
     
  14. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    There is a great wisdom in Sacrifice. We have virtually no conception as to what these acts of Love produce. Baha'u'llah has offered some explanations. I can find those if you wish to read them.

    Baha'u'llah gave up One of His Sons.

    The tragic death of Mirza Mihdi, “The Purest Branch” - Baha'i Stories: The tragic death of Mirza Mihdi, “The Purest Branch”

    If you choose to read this story you will note that Mirza Mihdi asked to be allowed to sacrifice His life so the gate of the prison would be opened as to allow Pilgrims to visit Baha'u'llah.

    Baha'u'llah granted this wish and let His son go. I will go on Pilgrimage again in December this year, I know that I owe the ability to do this to the sacrifice of Mirza Mihdi.

    Regards Tony
     
  15. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    It means we should live this life in the Knowledge of God and His Laws and conduct all our affairs in that knowledge.

    Yes all Leaders should be well versed in God and His Laws and be guided by them. This is not unusual as this has been the way in the past, there has been many great and just rulers The problem being many men that did come to power were still very immature in Gods Knowledge and Laws and allowed their self to rule, thinking they had the power and not that it is a gift of God to rule with Justice.

    There will arise more and more just rulers as we all likewise change our hearts. Our state of mind feeds to those that rule us. The world, at this time, is a good example of this.

    Regards Tony
     
  16. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Why would we not want God to rule? I thought that was what Jesus was supposed to do when he returned? You know, the "government" shall be on his shoulders thing? You guys have the local, national and Universal houses of justice all set to go. Are you only going to rule over Baha'is? Baha'is will be the only ones obligated to follow God's laws? You're going to leave the rest of us to vote people into a secular government when we have God's government available to us... a government that stands for peace and equality? A government that would put an end to economic disparity and all those other things in the Baha'i Peace message? What if we say no, we want the Baha'is to rule over us? Would the Baha'is do it? Now, if that day comes. When God's Kingdom and rule is established on Earth, what would you call that? Hmmm? God rules? How would you say that in another language? Let's say Greek for example? Wouldn't be that word, Theocracy? But it would be a good thing right? God ruling. But you know I with Old Badger, I have some reservations about letting Baha'is rule.
     
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  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    I haven't read the story yet, but Abraham's story isn't pretty. Supposedly God asked, no, told Abraham to stick a knife into the heart of his son and then burn the body. No, I'd ask for that second opinion.
     
  18. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    The link to a provisional translation of a section of a Tablet from Baha'u'llah explaining this was posted above, here that is in full;

    Excerpt Tablet to Hájí Mírzá Kamálu'd-Dín: By Bahá'u'lláh - translated by Iskandar Hai.2002

    Originally revealed as "Lawh-i-Hájí Mírzá Kamalu'd-Dín". first written or published 1878

    "...The question is that whereas in past Scriptures[1][2] Isaac is said to have been the sacrifice;[3] in the Qur’án[4] this station is given to Ishmael.[5] This is, undoubtedly, true. All, however, must fix their gaze upon the word which hath dawned from the Divine Horizon:[6] it is incumbent upon every soul to ponder upon its sovereignty, influence, might, and on its all-encompassing nature. There hath never been any doubt whatsoever that all these things are confirmed and corroborated only by the Word of God. It is the Word of God that transcendeth all things, creates the universe, educateth the people, guideth them who are sore athirst from separation unto the ocean of reunion, and penetrateth through the darkness of ignorance with the light of understanding. Consider: all those who believe in past Scriptures[7] think of Isaac as the Sacrifice; likewise, the people of Qur’án[8] confirm this station for Ishmael. It is clear and evident to every possessor of insight and every religious person that no one was, outwardly[9] sacrificed; all agree that an animal was sacrificed. So, ponder upon this: Why is it that a person who hath gone to the altar of sacrifice for the Beloved and yet hath come back [alive], is adorned with the raiment of ‘Sacrifice of God’ and accepted[10] as such? There is no doubt that this is so because of the Word of God. Therefore, the criterion[11] for the manifestation of all names and for confirmation and fulfillment of all stations is dependent upon the Word of God.[12] Likewise, there is no doubt, that the Inaccessible, Unknowable [God] doth not talk as He is, and hath always been, sanctified from such conditions; rather, He speaketh through the tongue of His Manifestations.[13] Thus the Torah issued from the tongue of Moses. The same is true of other Holy Scriptures: all were revealed by the tongues of Prophets and Messengers but, the real Speaker[14] in all these Holy Books is the One true God.... It is now, therefore, established and confirmed that the station of ‘Sacrifice of God’ was, according to past Books,[15] given to Isaac by Abraham and that very same station is, according to Divine Revelation, Ishmael’s in the Qur’ánic Dispensation.[16]..."

    Note it is a 'Station' Given to Issac in the bible and to Ishmael in the Koran and Baha'i Writings.

    Thus they both shared this 'Station'. It did not happen, but the bounty was given to both of them.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    This is the crux of the Matter. God wants those, that want to Follow the given Laws and Guidance. This path is now within the Baha'i Administrative Order. It has always been our choice.

    The Baha'i faith will not interfere in the World affairs, it will offer advice when asked. This is Faith, people must want to ask.

    It is the Twelve Step program, first one must know they have a problem, then they have to admit the problem...

    Here are the 12 Steps as defined by Alcoholics Anonymous:

    1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol–that our lives had become unmanageable.
    2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
    3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
    4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
    5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
    6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character
    7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings
    8. Made a list of persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
    9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
    10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
    11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
    12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
    Regards Tony
     
  20. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    At the execution of the Bab there were 3 in the Cells with the Bab.

    The Bab told them He would prefer to die at the hand of a friend than to be shot by the enemy and requested of them to carry out the task. Two hesitated and could not.

    One person arose immediately and said he would carry out the Babs Wish. It was that person the Bab chose to be executed with Him. That person became part of the Bab as the musket shot joined their material bodies.

    There are many amazing Spiritual Truths in all that is Material. The Material is a projection of the Spiritual.

    Regards Tony
     
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