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Featured Christ Has returned, what should have we looked for?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by TransmutingSoul, Feb 26, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
  2. No

    34 vote(s)
    58.6%
  3. Maybe

    1 vote(s)
    1.7%
  4. I'm Fence sitting

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  5. Just a popcorn question

    2 vote(s)
    3.4%
  6. Definitly never

    8 vote(s)
    13.8%
  7. He has Come

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I would offer that the deception was on the part of the Church. Christians once indoctrinated were hapless victims of that indoctrination, yet they are still responsible for what they believe:

    “If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together, any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: “Wherefore hast thou disbelieved in My Beauty and turned away from My Self,” and if such a man should reply and say: “Inasmuch as all men have erred, and none hath been found willing to turn his face to the Truth, I, too, following their example, have grievously failed to recognize the Beauty of the Eternal,” such a plea will, assuredly, be rejected. For the faith of no man can be conditioned by any one except himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143
    What Christians are waiting for is the same man Jesus, not Baha'u'llah. The deception by the Church was complete.
     
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  2. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    You see? When folks tell me that I cannot use simple descriptive words like 'theocracy' and try to steer me towards long-winded 'It's not this it's that' scripts, then I know that Institutional Indoctrination is creeping up on me.

    Just tell it how it is...........................
     
  3. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    No I don't.
    I saw those pieces as indications that Bahai does support force and violence (when it gets some spiritual message to use it, I p[resume) and that in a Bahai World its own policing forces would be armed.
     
  4. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I can dig up enough evidence to show that Bahai would be a theocracy in a majority Bahai World, I just needed to be sure that you didn't know about this, needed to be shown, before I went to such trouble.

    But for now just read these pieces by folks who were very very knowledgeable about Bahai.

    Jeff Simmonds, who is in other respects a very sympathetic non-Bahá'í commentator on the Faith, said:

    While it is often down-played by Bahá'ís, the fact is that the ultimate goal of the Bahá'í Faith is the establishment of a completely Bahá'í society which means a Bahá'í State or a theocracy where religion and politics, or "church" and state are not separate. The Universal House of Justice will be the governing body of the world or of those states which become Bahá'í. This goal is not incidental, but is central to the teachings of the Faith.

    AND...................
    Denis MacEoin writes that "the Bahá'ís are actively working to establish religious states in which the functions of government will be taken over by Bahá'í institutions".

    If this is not what you know to be true then you are free to doubt me. If you are interested in learning more I can collect the source materials particularly from the writings of Shoghi Effendi. The Baha'i leadership is very aware of that which will not fly in the modern West. I know for a fact for many years the law book (Aqdas) would not be released in the English language for concerns over multiple issues that would not fly well in the modern western world (I doubt today that it's yet been released in its entirety.)



    The Israelites were under Mosaic Laws to kill on-sight several of the tribes that surrounded and adjoined them.
    If the Bahai Faith is no different from the Jewish Faith with regards to its laws, that would probably cause shock and amazement to several readers.

    Have you read the 613 Jewish Laws?

    Because you challenged me as writing rubbish....... remember?
    Oh yes we do have a fairly clear picture of what would happen in a future which contained a Bahai Administrative Order.
    'If only we had known'.

    'If' and 'Would' does not mean 'When'.
    In order for the seeker of truth to understand the character of Bahai, one needs to perceive what a World might be like if it would be a Bahai World.

    It would seem that folks who do try to show what this future might be like get distanced, estranged, or excommunicated ............ which might just flag-up a clear and present 'heads-up' to any casual observers or enquirers.
     
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  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    How stupid do you think I am? I just came from another forum where I had been for four years and their favorite thing to do was rank on Baha’is day and night, and especially they ranked on the UHJ and were suspicious of their motives... I was the only Baha’i there defending the Faith... Oh, I know about all the anti-Baha’i propaganda. Sure, they know more about the Baha’i Faith than the Baha’is on this forum and people like me who have been Baha’is for 40 or 50 years.

    Oh, and just one small thing... Since they are obviously anti-Baha’i given they were formerly Baha’is who dropped out or they just never liked the Baha’i Faith, they have all kinds of motives to misrepresent Baha’i beliefs...

    This is logic 101 stuff and psych 101 stuff. :rolleyes:

    To believe these people would be like a Christian going to Caiphas for “accurate information” about Jesus. ROTFL :D

    Show me something from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, Abdu’l-Baha, or Shoghi Effendi about the Baha’i “world takeover” and I will be happy to look at it. :)
    I do not know history very well. I only know what Jews have told me about how they presently enforce their Laws. I meant that Baha’is and Jews are no different in how they presently enforce their Laws.
    You have no picture at all unless you are Prophet that can SEE the future or unless you are God who knows the future.
    Well then, you read ONLY the authoritative writings of the Baha’i Faith and try to understand what they mean, you do not go to detractors to find out the truth about the Baha’i Faith. If you want the truth of Christianity, you go to the Bible, not to those who oppose Christianity.
    Why do you think that is? Because they speak out against the Baha'i Faith and what is in the Writings; they twist it and make it look like we are up to something bad when in reality they are the ones doing something bad; they are lying.

    This just makes the point as to why individual investigation of truth is SO important... That means you look at the original source material yourself, not at what other people SAY about that source material.

    “The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

    “What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.”Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.
     
  6. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    How it is, does take time to understand as the Baha'i Administrative System is yet to be unfolded.

    " The Guardian graphically stressed these differences in his letter of 8 February 1934, know as "The Dispensation of Bahá'u'lláh":

    The Bahá'í Commonwealth of the future, of which this vast Administrative Order is the sole framework, is, both in theory and practice, not only unique in the entire history of political institutions, but can find no parallel in the annals of any of the world s recognized religious systems No form of democratic government; no system of autocracy or of dictatorship, whether monarchical or republican; no intermediary scheme of a purely aristocratic order; nor even any of the recognized types of theocracy, whether it be the Hebrew Commonwealth, or the various Christian ecclesiastical organizations, or the Imamate or the Caliphate in Islam none of these can be identified or be said to conform with the Administrative Order which the master hand of its perfect Architect has fashioned."

    This is a lengthy document but it addreses this very issue.

    Theocracy, separation of church and state by / on behalf of Universal House of Justice 1995-04-27

    Theocracy, separation of church and state

    With that back to topic.

    Regards Tony
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think you might be getting your covenants mixed up. [​IMG]

    Abraham's descendants were all to be circumcised as a sign of their relationship to Abraham. Ishmael was circumcised the year before Isaac was born.

    "God said further to Abraham: “As for you, you are to keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10 This is my covenant between me and you, that you and your offspring after you will keep: Every male among you must get circumcised. 11 You must circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it will serve as a sign of the covenant between me and you."

    This is not the same covenant that God made with Abraham concerning the Promised Land.....

    "On that day Jehovah made with Aʹbram a covenant, saying: “To your offspring I will give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Eu·phraʹtes:. . . . To this God said: “Your wife Sarah will definitely bear you a son, and you must name him Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant to his offspring after him." (Genesis 15:18; 17:19)

    God swore his oath to Abraham's son Isaac....."Reside as a foreigner in this land, and I will continue with you and bless you because to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will carry out the oath that I swore to your father Abraham: 4 ‘I will multiply your offspring like the stars of the heavens; and I will give to your offspring all these lands; and by means of your offspring, all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves,’" (Genesis 26:3-4)

    I am Jehovah the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac. The land on which you are lying, to you I am going to give it and to your offspring." (Genesis 28:13)

    Ishmael was only included in the circumcision covenant....not the Abrahamic covenant.
    When he was informed that Sarah would also have a son from whom “kings of peoples” would come, Abraham petitioned God in behalf of his firstborn: “O that Ishmael might live before you!” God’s reply, after declaring that the future son Isaac would be the covenant heir, was: “As regards Ishmael I have heard you. Look! I will bless him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him very, very much. He will certainly produce twelve chieftains, and I will make him become a great nation.”

    After his expulsion with his mother from Abraham's family situation, Ishmael became an archer. As a nomadic inhabitant of the Paran Wilderness, he fulfilled the prophecy that said of him: “He will become a zebra of a man. His hand will be against everyone, and the hand of everyone will be against him; and before the face of all his brothers he will tabernacle.” (Genesis 21:17-21; 16:12) Hagar found an Egyptian wife for her son, and he in time fathered 12 sons, chieftains and family heads of the promised “great nation” of Ishmaelites. But Ishmael never shared in the covenant made through Isaac and Jacob.
     
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  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    At the coming of Christ

    Number 1-- every knee will bow at his
    coming.Isaiah 45:23,
    Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10.

    Number 2-- every eye will see him at his
    coming.Revelation 1:7.

    Number 3-- this body of flesh will change
    To the spiritual body at his
    coming. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

    Number 4-- when the feet of Christ's touch down on the mount of Olives, Which is just North of Jerusalem, there will be an earthquake, that a tenth part of the city of Jerusalem fell Revelation 11:13, And the west wall of the temple buildings, which the Jews of Israel, calls the wailing wall, which is still standing, Will come down, fulfilling the Prophecy of Christ's in Matthew 24:2, And Mark 13:2, That not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down, of the temple buildings, Thereby fulfilling the Prophecy of Christ's.
     
    #228 Faithofchristian, Mar 2, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  9. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Think as you wish...

    Right and this was to be the covenant of Israel right? The covenant of Isaac and his descendants to dwell in the land?

    Paul says not to have gentiles circumcised or they'll be subject to this covenant.

    So yes actually- Ishmael is of the same covenant, unless Paul was wrong...

    How detrimental it would be to Christian teaching if Paul was wrong. Especially since Paul's gospel is about 90% of Christian doctrine...
    Of course a Christian wouldn't wish to think so. You would have to at least accept Islam as true, wouldn't you?

    Look we went over this in the Bible thread some too. If Christians are going to accept their deity can abrogate his message once and send new revelation- they really have no grounds to not consider he couldn't do so again any number of times.

    If the Koran can be called into question, so can the New Testament.
     
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  10. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    This is what this thread is about. I found it amazing that Muhammad and His Revelation is in the Bible. Really it is logical that it is. How could a book of Prophecy not tell of a Faith that held control of the Holy Land for 1260 years.

    Regards Tony
     
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  11. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    Please if you have verses from the bible about your claim let's hear or see them. Thanks
     
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  12. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    How many times I have to say this, bahaullah is or was NOT in the bible, NEVER at all. You can make any links you want, i.e., after Christ genealogy in the bible, and connect it to bahaullah, or to whoever you want, but it won't change a thing of what the bible is or was saying about Christ genealogy.

    Read this verse, Mattew 1:17 "So ALL the generations from Abraham unto David are fourteen generations; and from David unto the carrying away to Babylon fourteen generations; and from the carrying away to Babylon unto the Christ fourteen generations."

    The word “ALL/PAS radically means “ALL”. It did NOT say, “here is the partial or incomplete genealogy of Christ until further notice from baha’i faith”

    You can make a link from King David to Bahaullah, but that’s all you can do, but if you argue that Bahaullah was mentioned or came from the bible because you use King David as your reference or a source of bahaullah’s genealogy then who are you fooling here? Yourself!

    This is NOT a part of a constitution or a law where you could make an amendment to suit your political point of view. NO! Everything written in the bible is FINAL and cannot be changed by adding or subtracting anything from it because this is the law of God.

    Is this really hard to understand?
     
  13. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    Read the whole chapters of John 20 and 21, and Acts chapter 1 and see it yourself if “Jesus died and never rose and ascended”. I have the bible against your mythical gods.
     
  14. Neb

    Neb Active Member

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    You, a mere creation of the creator do not "terminates" the law of God, the Creator.
    You can make a link from King David to Bahaullah, but that’s all you can do, but if you argue that Bahaullah was mentioned or came from the bible because you use King David as your reference or a source of bahaullah’s genealogy then who are you fooling here? Yourself!

    This is NOT a part of a constitution or a law where you could make an amendment to suit your political or in this case your theological/philosophical point of view. NO! Everything written in the bible is final and cannot be changed by adding or subtracting anything from it because this is the law of God. Is this really hard to understand?
     
  15. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    Genesis 17:24-27 Galatians 5:1-3

    If Paul was correct, Ishmael was in the covenant.
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I don't think as I 'wish' any more than you appear to. I go by what the whole Bible says and Ishmael was not part of Israel....as the scriptures I showed you confirm.

    Ishmael was a descendant of Abraham but he was not included in the Abrahamic covenant for the Promised Land....that was to come through Isaac and Jacob. It was Jacob's sons who were called the 12 tribes of Israel because it was Jacob's name that was changed to "Israel". (Genesis 32:28)

    The circumcision covenant was a separate covenant, but later included in the Law of Moses for all Israelite males. Ishmael and his descendants were not part of Israel. This is where I believe you have misunderstood the two covenants.

    Paul was not wrong, but I believe you are mistaken. Israel was not the only nation to practice circumcision. They had a spiritual significance to their practice that other nations did not.

    History of male circumcision - Wikipedia

    Paul is not wrong.....but I believe that your evaluation is not based on having all the facts. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" as the saying goes.....be careful of over-confidence. Do your research carefully and you will not jump to conclusions that are flawed.

    No, there are no mixed messages in the Bible....only mixed conclusions from those who have not done their homework thoroughly enough. All questions are answerable if you know what the Bible actually says as a whole, rather than relying on bits and pieces that are unconnected...or on trusting the conclusions reached by others without thoroughly checking things out for yourself.

    If one 'knows' scripture, as opposed to 'thinking that they know' scripture, then all questions can be answered from scripture instead of from a vivid imagination and an elevated opinion of one's own conclusions, or the conclusions drawn by others.

    The Bible is a compilation of 66 small books penned by men of God from diverse backgrounds......some were prophets, some were fishermen, others were Kings.... but it is one story, with one author from beginning to end, in spite of the fact that it took over 1600 years to complete....and it's internal harmony is amazing.

    The Bible is the only book that takes us from our beginnings.....to our diversion from the path that God set for us....and how he gets us back to his original purpose with precedents set for all eternity to come. The last book of the Bible takes us 1,000 years into the future.....why would we need more?

    Christendom got lost a very long time ago. Anyone who considers what they teach and practice as "Christianity" should make a very careful re-evaluation of what the Bible teaches as opposed to what the churches teach. There is no similarity.

    As Jesus said.....look at what the followers of these religions DO as opposed to what they SAY. Jesus' message was one of peace......how much peace is there in these religious systems? How much bloodshed is there, especially among those who claim Jesus as their Lord or as a prophet? (Matthew 5:43-45)

    Talk is cheap......it takes special kinds of people to be 'peacemakers' in a world at war with itself. (Matthew 5:9) Where is the love Jesus said we would see among his true disciples? (John 13:34-35) Christian is, as Christian does.....actions speak louder, ya know.....

    Think about it......
     
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  17. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    Number 2-- every eye will see him at his coming.Revelation 1:7.[/QUOTE]

    These passages viewed in a literal way to gain a vision of our Spiritual Christ, may find that other passages become applicable, such as;

    Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

    Matthew 25:10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    Thus it appears it may be that all the eyes that will see and ears that will hear and the knees that will bend are those that are ready. It does not mean that everyone has eyes that will see, ears to hear or have willing knees to bend.

    The first appearance of out Lord Jesus the Christ, also fulfilled this Prophecy, as it was foretold in Isaiah.

    Again this happens in the Spirit on the acceptance of the returned Christ, it is not a material unfolding. One minute we live this life chasing the material benefits and pleasures, we may even think we do this and are righteous in Faith, But in the next minute we discover Christ has returned and the world is no more. We are born again into the Spirit while still in the flesh.

    This was also applicable at Christs first appearance, it is applicable in all of Christs appearances. remember Christ is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the end, all this in a world where a body dies and does not last.

    Baha'u'llah has given us a vision of these spiritual walls that will crumble and fall down;

    "..Thus it is that certain invalid souls have confined the lands of knowledge within the wall of self and passion, and clouded them with ignorance and blindness, and have been veiled from the light of the mystic sun and the mysteries of the Eternal Beloved; they have strayed afar from the jewelled wisdom of the lucid Faith of the Lord of Messengers, have been shut out of the sanctuary of the All-Beauteous One, and banished from the Ka'bih [1] of splendor. Such is the worth of the people of this age!.." Baha'u'llah : The Seven Valleys

    We have to look beyond the material, beyond our self made thoughts and bring down those walls and vanish the clouds that obscure our vision.

    Just as the Disciples did at the First appearance of Christ and all of Christs appearances.

    Regards Tony
     
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The Bible cannot be added to or subtracted from but an Almighty God can speak again and reveal more scriptures. Is this really hard to understand?

    God has spoken three times since the Bible was written: to Muhammad, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah. They were prophesied in the Bible.

    “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” (Rev. 11:14) The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” (Ez. 30:1–3)

    Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.

    “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.” (Rev. 11:15)

    The seventh angel is a man qualified with heavenly attributes, who will arise with heavenly qualities and character. Voices will be raised, so that the appearance of the Divine Manifestation will be proclaimed and diffused. In the day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts, and at the epoch of the divine cycle of the Omnipotent which is promised and mentioned in all the books and writings of the Prophets—in that day of God, the Spiritual and Divine Kingdom will be established, and the world will be renewed; a new spirit will be breathed into the body of creation; the season of the divine spring will come; the clouds of mercy will rain; the sun of reality will shine; the life-giving breeze will blow; the world of humanity will wear a new garment; the surface of the earth will be a sublime paradise; mankind will be educated; wars, disputes, quarrels and malignity will disappear; and truthfulness, righteousness, peace and the worship of God will appear; union, love and brotherhood will surround the world; and God will rule for evermore—meaning that the Spiritual and Everlasting Kingdom will be established. Such is the day of God. For all the days which have come and gone were the days of Abraham, Moses and Christ, or of the other Prophets; but this day is the day of God, for the Sun of Reality will arise in it with the utmost warmth and splendor.” Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 56-57

    The Revelation of Baha'u'llah is the Law of God that has been renewed in this new age. Is this really hard to understand?


    “The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of 13 God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13
     
  19. Buddha Dharma

    Buddha Dharma Dharma Practitioner

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    They don't confirm that, but thanks for your consideration.

    Paul didn't think it was separate. He forbade Judaizers to circumcise gentiles

    Paul never clarified any spiritual dimension to it.

    Some advice I'm sure we could all do well to take.

    I am not going to address your long sermon about the Bible because it's beside the point, and it doesn't answer my question. It's more saying a lot of words to drown it out.
     
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  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    35,572
    Ratings:
    +10,212
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I have the Revelation of Baha'u'llah so I do not need the Bible. The Bible has been relegated to history.
     
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