Christ and the Demiurge (OT God) - relationship?

[Being]

Hi.

In Gnostic thought, what is the understanding about the relationship between Christ and the Demiurge? Is the Demiurge the same as the Old Testament (OT) god, Yahweh (and equivalent to Jehovah)? What does Christ reveal about the OT god, and therefore what should humans understand about who and what the OT god is?

When Jesus Christ of the New Testament (NT) makes claims to titles and traits that seem the same or similar to the OT god, what is Jesus Christ doing? Is he essentially taking authority away from the OT god, or showing that he, Jesus Christ, is the rightful possessor of these titles and traits, and that the OT god is basically a usurper and counterfeit? If that is the case (or some similar situation), would that make the NT not a continuation of the OT, but a replacement for the OT? Are there passages in the NT that reveal (when understood with a Gnostic POV) that reveal this is what Jesus Christ is doing: exposing the OT god as basically being an imposter?

If you reply, please quote me, so I will receive an alert.

Thanks,
Being

 

[nazz]

Hi.

In Gnostic thought, what is the understanding about the relationship between Christ and the Demiurge? Is the Demiurge the same as the Old Testament (OT) god, Yahweh (and equivalent to Jehovah)? What does Christ reveal about the OT god, and therefore what should humans understand about who and what the OT god is?

When Jesus Christ of the New Testament (NT) makes claims to titles and traits that seem the same or similar to the OT god, what is Jesus Christ doing? Is he essentially taking authority away from the OT god, or showing that he, Jesus Christ, is the rightful possessor of these titles and traits, and that the OT god is basically a usurper and counterfeit? If that is the case (or some similar situation), would that make the NT not a continuation of the OT, but a replacement for the OT? Are there passages in the NT that reveal (when understood with a Gnostic POV) that reveal this is what Jesus Christ is doing: exposing the OT god as basically being an imposter?

If you reply, please quote me, so I will receive an alert.

Thanks,
Being

First off, a caveat. The opinions I express are strictly my own and I do not speak for all gnostics. That said, rather than saying the demiurge is the "OT God" it would be more accurate to say it is claimed in the OT that the deity written of therein is the demiurge, that is, the master craftsman of this aeon. Other religions claim that their deity is the demiurge. The demiurge is simply a concept that refers to the creative energy which fashioned our universe. The universe is an expression of the character of that being.

All things were created by the Father by and through his Word. That includes the demiurge. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we know him as the man Jesus the Christ. The work of the demiurge is not in harmony with the Father's will but the error of the demiurge is used by Father for a positive purpose.

Where the OT speaks of God or YHVH sometimes this is referring to the Father. Other times it is referring to a being who is clearly not the Father. We can distinguish between the two based on Christ's and the Apostles teachings on the Father. Some things attributed to the OT deity appear to be nothing more than pious fiction. The god that the Jews worshiped in the time of Jesus was not the Father Christ came to reveal. In that sense he is a counterfeit usurper as he was not the highest or only form of divinity.

 

[wizanda]

If you reply...

Hypothetically:

• What if El was Yeshua's father, that he clearly prayed to?
• Why would he say to the Jews he could introduce them to his father, if YHVH was the same?
• If Yah-Hovah means Lord of Mischief, does the qualities ascribed to him present this?
• According to Canaanite beliefs, El gave authority for YHVH to rule Israel and its people....So it possible we've all been misled on purpose?

 

[Being]

Hypothetically:

• What if El was Yeshua's father, that he clearly prayed to?
• Why would he say to the Jews he could introduce them to his father, if YHVH was the same?
• If Yah-Hovah means Lord of Mischief, does the qualities ascribed to him present this?
• According to Canaanite beliefs, El gave authority for YHVH to rule Israel and its people....So it possible we've all been misled on purpose?

wizanda, I've heard/read about Yah-Hovah being mischief, and the implications of that. If, as you mention, "we've all been misled on purpose," then what is the purpose? What is your definition of "Oneness," and what is your Christology (who/what is Christ)?
This is a good question: "Why would he say to the Jews he could introduce them to his father, if YHVH was the same?" Okay, I read the scripture passages. So, do you think Jesus is not merely implying that their comprehension of God/Father is erroneous, but that Jesus is referring to a different entity altogether, as the Father? Please elaborate; I'm curious.
Thanks. ~ Peace, Being

 

[Being]

First off, a caveat. The opinions I express are strictly my own and I do not speak for all gnostics. That said, rather than saying the demiurge is the "OT God" it would be more accurate to say it is claimed in the OT that the deity written of therein is the demiurge, that is, the master craftsman of this aeon. Other religions claim that their deity is the demiurge. The demiurge is simply a concept that refers to the creative energy which fashioned our universe. The universe is an expression of the character of that being.

All things were created by the Father by and through his Word. That includes the demiurge. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we know him as the man Jesus the Christ. The work of the demiurge is not in harmony with the Father's will but the error of the demiurge is used by Father for a positive purpose.

Where the OT speaks of God or YHVH sometimes this is referring to the Father. Other times it is referring to a being who is clearly not the Father. We can distinguish between the two based on Christ's and the Apostles teachings on the Father. Some things attributed to the OT deity appear to be nothing more than pious fiction. The god that the Jews worshiped in the time of Jesus was not the Father Christ came to reveal. In that sense he is a counterfeit usurper as he was not the highest or only form of divinity.

nazz,

Thanks for replying. I have a few questions. First, I don't quite understand the sense of this statement: "... it is claimed in the OT that the deity written of therein is the demiurge, that is, the master craftsman of this aeon." Do you mean that the OT claims that the creator written about in the OT is the demiurge, but that Judaism and Christianity typically does not perceive this, and they mistake the demiurge ("Yahweh"/"Jehovah") to be the Top God or ultimate Deity?

Also, this statement, "Other religions claim that their deity is the demiurge. The demiurge is simply a concept that refers to the creative energy which fashioned our universe." Do you mean that other religions claim that the deity they worship is the creator (whom Gnosticism calls the "demiurge"), and they mistakenly believe their creator (whom Gnosticism calls the "demiurge") to be the Top God or ultimate deity? Other religions don't call their deity the "demiurge." So, if my interpretion of your statements is accurage (to your meaning), then do you think that the other religions' creator deities are actually false? And if false, are they false as in: real, but not the genuine article (not the real demiurge); or false as in: not existent in any external or objective way, but only imaginary in the minds of the people who believe in them?

Also, if the demiurge did things not in accordance with the Father's will, why did the Father allow those actions to take place, or the results to stand? Or is the revelation of Jesus Christ the rectification and remedy for the mischief of the demiurge?

What became of the demiurge? Did Jesus Christ punish the demiurge? And is Satan real? According to Gnostic belief, who/what is the Satan mentioned in the NT?

I'm leading to a question about Jesus on the cross. But I have to take this slow, so I understand as I go. If you reply again, I might ask the question next about Jesus on the cross.

Finally, I would like to discuss the following (but only after clarifying the above points, so I don't juggle too many points at once):

"Where the OT speaks of God or YHVH sometimes this is referring to the Father. Other times it is referring to a being who is clearly not the Father. We can distinguish between the two based on Christ's and the Apostles teachings on the Father."

Thanks again.
Peace,
Being

 

[wizanda]

If, as you mention, "we've all been misled on purpose," then what is the purpose?

According to the Bible in multiple places, there has been a mass deception established by YHVH; to catch out those who would swear falsely, and those who are caught red handed stealing.
It is summarized well in the apocalypse of Abraham, which states it is to shorten the days of unGodliness.

What is your definition of "Oneness," and what is your Christology (who/what is Christ)?

0neness is the kingdom of Heaven; all religions are one.
Yeshua is an Elohim (angel); he was sent down here to fulfill the prophecies, and show what was right.... As have many others, like Buddha, Lao Tzu, etc.

So, do you think Jesus is not merely implying that their comprehension of God/Father is erroneous, but that Jesus is referring to a different entity altogether, as the Father?

The statement is they 'don't know the father'; thus if that was YHWH, that couldn't be true.

 

[Being]

According to the Bible in multiple places, there has been a mass deception established by YHVH; to catch out those who would swear falsely, and those who are caught red handed stealing.
It is summarized well in the apocalypse of Abraham, which states it is to shorten the days of unGodliness.

0neness is the kingdom of Heaven; all religions are one.
Yeshua is an Elohim (angel); he was sent down here to fulfill the prophecies, and show what was right.... As have many others, like Buddha, Lao Tzu, etc.

The statement is they 'don't know the father'; thus if that was YHWH, that couldn't be true.

wizanda,
Thanks!
Would you be interested in commenting on, or answering, any of the questions I asked in this post:
Christ and the Demiurge (OT God) - relationship? | ReligiousForums.com

Peace,
Being

 

[nazz]

nazz,

Thanks for replying. I have a few questions. First, I don't quite understand the sense of this statement: "... it is claimed in the OT that the deity written of therein is the demiurge, that is, the master craftsman of this aeon." Do you mean that the OT claims that the creator written about in the OT is the demiurge, but that Judaism and Christianity typically does not perceive this, and they mistake the demiurge ("Yahweh"/"Jehovah") to be the Top God or ultimate Deity?

What I am saying is that Jews, Muslims, and most Christians worship a deity for whom one identifying characteristic would conform to the gnostic idea of the demiurge. From the gnostic perspective these religions have conflated multiple entities into one composite figure which also has some individual characteristics peculiar to the particular religion. The gnostic view deconstructs these composites into their respective parts. And whereas all those religions see the creator as perfect and superior above all gnostics see the demiurge as imperfect and inferior.

Also, this statement, "Other religions claim that their deity is the demiurge. The demiurge is simply a concept that refers to the creative energy which fashioned our universe." Do you mean that other religions claim that the deity they worship is the creator (whom Gnosticism calls the "demiurge"), and they mistakenly believe their creator (whom Gnosticism calls the "demiurge") to be the Top God or ultimate deity?

It depends on the religion. Not all religions view the creator deity as the ultimate deity. But for those that do, the answer would be yes.

Other religions don't call their deity the "demiurge." So, if my interpretion of your statements is accurage (to your meaning), then do you think that the other religions' creator deities are actually false? And if false, are they false as in: real, but not the genuine article (not the real demiurge); or false as in: not existent in any external or objective way, but only imaginary in the minds of the people who believe in them?

They are quite real to those who worship them. Whether any deities have objective existence is a matter of pure speculation. It's really not important (to me anyway) if they do or not.

Also, if the demiurge did things not in accordance with the Father's will, why did the Father allow those actions to take place, or the results to stand?

The Father and the demiurge are different aspects of divinity. Each has its own limited sphere of power and influence. The demiurge is a disobedient child of the Father.

Or is the revelation of Jesus Christ the rectification and remedy for the mischief of the demiurge?

The Word became incarnate as Jesus Christ to reveal the truth of the Father. Part of that included rectifying a false image of ultimate deity.

What became of the demiurge?

Nothing really. It still exists and continues to work in the universe. But gnostics have been spiritually freed from its enslavement.

Did Jesus Christ punish the demiurge?

Not in my opinion. But he did defeat him.

And is Satan real? According to Gnostic belief, who/what is the Satan mentioned in the NT?

Satan is real as an internal spiritual reality. Satan simply means adversary--that which opposes the will of the Father and leads us astray.

 

[Being]

...
Christ and the Demiurge (OT God) - relationship? | ReligiousForums.com

nazz, thanks for your reply and answers. It helps me understand better. I have some personal matters to deal with. I don't know when I'll get back to this thread. Peace, Being

 

[allfoak]

Hi.

In Gnostic thought, what is the understanding about the relationship between Christ and the Demiurge? Is the Demiurge the same as the Old Testament (OT) god, Yahweh (and equivalent to Jehovah)? What does Christ reveal about the OT god, and therefore what should humans understand about who and what the OT god is?

When Jesus Christ of the New Testament (NT) makes claims to titles and traits that seem the same or similar to the OT god, what is Jesus Christ doing? Is he essentially taking authority away from the OT god, or showing that he, Jesus Christ, is the rightful possessor of these titles and traits, and that the OT god is basically a usurper and counterfeit? If that is the case (or some similar situation), would that make the NT not a continuation of the OT, but a replacement for the OT? Are there passages in the NT that reveal (when understood with a Gnostic POV) that reveal this is what Jesus Christ is doing: exposing the OT god as basically being an imposter?

If you reply, please quote me, so I will receive an alert.

Thanks,
Being

This is an interesting POV.
According to my understanding you are saying that The Law of Moses is the God of this world (The Demiurge), and The Fashioner of this world.

I will comment from my own perspective since i claim no knowledge apart from the knowledge of myself.

It seems what you say is true, that the Christ exposes the God of this world as an imposter, since it is always the Christ that appears when the battle with the God of this world is engaged.


There are many OT Passages that seem to allude to the appearance this Christ.

What is most interesting about this perspective is that it indeed makes the Law a Light Bearer, since if you keep the Whole Law it will herald the appearance of the Christ, the light itself.

Obedience to the Law brings Light.
Imagine that!

 

[ELoWolfe]

That is kind of erroneous thinking, though. If you subscribe to Paul's thinking, the Law brings death - it further enslaves us. He also says that even Satan can appear as an Angel of Light. Adhering to the Law will not bring salvation, either - it cannot "bring Light."

This basis of thinking is that we are never able to actually adhere to the Law because of our very nature. We were never created to be able to fulfill all of the Law. It became a catch-22 where we were told to find reward for it, but the standards were so high that no one could possibly meet them. Even the elect and heroes of the Demiurge, such as David, never fulfilled the Law. It was by selective exemption that those heroes may have found reprieve of the Law (and even then, they probably didn't). Samuel, for example, a prophet of the Demiurge, still suffered the same fate as Korah. If a prophet of the Demiurge can't find exemption, what hope is there for anyone else? If the Demiurge can enforce or relax the Law as he saw fit, what good was it? We are at the mercy of a deity that can decide our fate without any influence or discussion from us. Job found that out firsthand.

The Valentinians saw that the laws of Moses were not evil, per se. They thus concluded that there was the demiurge that was logical and lawful, not evil but not fully good. There was then an evil principle, a satan, which actively sought out evil. The Law may have worked to curb our more disastrous qualities, but it was not where our salvation was and it was not from the Father.

 

[allfoak]

That is kind of erroneous thinking, though. If you subscribe to Paul's thinking, the Law brings death - it further enslaves us. He also says that even Satan can appear as an Angel of Light. Adhering to the Law will not bring salvation, either - it cannot "bring Light."

This basis of thinking is that we are never able to actually adhere to the Law because of our very nature. We were never created to be able to fulfill all of the Law. It became a catch-22 where we were told to find reward for it, but the standards were so high that no one could possibly meet them. Even the elect and heroes of the Demiurge, such as David, never fulfilled the Law. It was by selective exemption that those heroes may have found reprieve of the Law (and even then, they probably didn't). Samuel, for example, a prophet of the Demiurge, still suffered the same fate as Korah. If a prophet of the Demiurge can't find exemption, what hope is there for anyone else? If the Demiurge can enforce or relax the Law as he saw fit, what good was it? We are at the mercy of a deity that can decide our fate without any influence or discussion from us. Job found that out firsthand.

The Valentinians saw that the laws of Moses were not evil, per se. They thus concluded that there was the demiurge that was logical and lawful, not evil but not fully good. There was then an evil principle, a satan, which actively sought out evil. The Law may have worked to curb our more disastrous qualities, but it was not where our salvation was and it was not from the Father.

The Light only comes when one sees that the Law of Moses cannot be kept.
The example of this is the rich young ruler.
He was told that he must sell everything and give to the poor.
He failed to see the purpose of the Law which was to lead one to the Christ.
So in essence the Demiurge is transformed into the light bearer.

 

[allfoak]

It all is an allegory.
That is what Paul said.
When he said the Law leads to death he did not mean that they should not live by it, but rather not take it literally.

 

[ELoWolfe]

I am sorry, I am not following. Are you saying that the standards of the Law were intentionally designed so high so that individuals could see they can never achieve them and so must resort to the Christ? "You can never get this, so follow him which is what we wanted all along"?

That doesn't make sense.

The Demiurge doesn't work for the Christ or the Heavenly Father. The Demiurge was blind to them, so it couldn't have been encouraging humanity to seek out the Father. It wasn't until after the revelation of the Father through Christ that the Demiurge may have been able to see it. Some Gnostics claimed the centurion of faith was the Demiurge, yet there is also the Satan which is either the Demiurge or an Archon, depending on your preferred system.

Paul says that the Law makes us slaves to sin (which results in death). We have to be above the Law. The Law exists to maintain order, but it also enslaves humanity to the Demiurge (and sin, and death). Christ was above the Law, and because he was divine (and thus perfect), he was able to fulfill the Law in a way that no other human could. Through Christ, whether though Grace or Gnosis, we too become above the Law in the way he was, thus free from the Law, sin, death and the Demiurge.

In acting with gnosis, love, we do not break the Law.

You keep using the term "bearer of the Light." Are you attempting to advocate a theology of a positive (or redemptive) Lucifer?

 

[allfoak]

When you burn yourself you learn hot things can injure you.
To stop being injured you have to keep the law.
Nothing is above the Law.
To become the Christ one must fulfill the Law.

 

[ELoWolfe]

You attempt to speak esoterically, but regardless of the method you employ, I disagree. The Law of Moses, the Demiurge, is inferior to the teachings and truth of Christ. "You heard it said..., but I say..."

Paul even says those who are under the law are cursed.

 

[wizanda]

What became of the demiurge?

Within what already said, what if the demiurge is part of the solution to a better reality. With every virus removed from a computer, the algorithm and protection improves.

Did Jesus Christ punish the demiurge?

Nope, Yeshua fulfilled the prophecies righteously; to help make it much worse by the Tares, which were planted after.. If you look over Armilius texts, which is the Jewish anti-christ, it clearly points at Rome.

And is Satan real?

Satan means an accuser, devil means a slanderer. Within the new testament we see satan inside Simon, talking to Yeshua in the wilderness, prophesied to use Simon the stone (petros)... So did Yeshua mean it was an entity or a force, very much like demiurge its self.

Also, if the demiurge did things not in accordance with the Father's will, why did the Father allow those actions to take place, or the results to stand? Or is the revelation of Jesus Christ the rectification and remedy for the mischief of the demiurge?

What you need to understand is the Bible is a test; if we're given the knowledge of good and evil, what is the point if we don't use it?

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; yet the honour of kings to seek it out.

Thus not everything is as it seems; even if YHWH is the demiurge... It has created a book of law and prophecy, that interlink succinctly, to make it clear what is meant to be followed, and then tested to see who actually gets it.
So Yeshua (means - God is our salvation) said it right; it is what has been added by others after, that falls short of seeing how the matter is constructed. Thus many who follow quickly to plunder, don't see how it is a snare, laid before the nations.

 

[Being]

wizanda, thanks for your reply and comments. I have some personal matters needing attention. I'm not sure when I'll get back to this thread. Peace, Being

Within what already said, what if the demiurge is part of the solution to a better reality. With every virus removed from a computer, the algorithm and protection improves.

Nope, Yeshua fulfilled the prophecies righteously; to help make it much worse by the Tares, which were planted after.. If you look over Armilius texts, which is the Jewish anti-christ, it clearly points at Rome.

Satan means an accuser, devil means a slanderer. Within the new testament we see satan inside Simon, talking to Yeshua in the wilderness, prophesied to use Simon the stone (petros)... So did Yeshua mean it was an entity or a force, very much like demiurge its self.

What you need to understand is the Bible is a test; if we're given the knowledge of good and evil, what is the point if we don't use it?

Thus not everything is as it seems; even if YHWH is the demiurge... It has created a book of law and prophecy, that interlink succinctly, to make it clear what is meant to be followed, and then tested to see who actually gets it.
So Yeshua (means - God is our salvation) said it right; it is what has been added by others after, that falls short of seeing how the matter is constructed. Thus many who follow quickly to plunder, don't see how it is a snare, laid before the nations.

 

[allfoak]

You attempt to speak esoterically, but regardless of the method you employ, I disagree. The Law of Moses, the Demiurge, is inferior to the teachings and truth of Christ. "You heard it said..., but I say..."

Paul even says those who are under the law are cursed.

How about we say that one leads to the other, rather than say one is inferior to the other?
I think we could both pull up bible verses to show that both views are correct but that's fine i have had enough .

 

[ELoWolfe]

If you can pull up Gnostic literature that supports what you claim, I would be happy to read it. I have not read anything along the thinking you have expressed. If it is your UPG, your own philosophy, sure. But it is radical and different than anything understood by the ancients.