Chosen Aliens

[Harel13]

...no, the title isn't meant to be antisemitic...

I saw this quote from Rabbi Yosef B. Soloveitchik the other day and found it thought-provoking (although, what in his teachings isn't? ):

Rabbi David Holzer: "Would the discovery of alien life be an issue in terms of the Torah view?"

Rabbi Yosef Soloveitchik: "It is possible that Hashem created other life forms on other planets. It is no problem to yahadus [Judaism]. The reason man likes to think he is the only created being in the entire universe is because of his egotistical nature.

Even the concept of am ha’nivchar [chosen nation] may only be relative to our world, our small section of the universe. The Torah is written from the viewpoint of our sun, moon, and stars. It would not detract from our being the am ha’nivchar of this region of space if there were other am ha’nivchar in a distant galaxy."

(excerpt from here, which quoted from this book)
​

I heard once a class from Rabbi Ouri Cherki that when Chazal say that God looked into the Torah to see how to create the world, it's not a reference to our Torah but Ha'Torah (The Torah) - a compendium of all of the knowledge of our reality, while the Torah we received at Sinai is a specific portion of that greater Torah.

Which got me thinking: if, theoretically, there are other sentient beings out there, and they too have chosen groups, did these groups receive the same Torah that we did, or other portions of the greater Torah?

 

[exchemist]

...no, the title isn't meant to be antisemitic...

I saw this quote from Rabbi Yosef B. Soloveitchik the other day and found it thought-provoking (although, what in his teachings isn't? ):

Rabbi David Holzer: "Would the discovery of alien life be an issue in terms of the Torah view?"

Rabbi Yosef Soloveitchik: "It is possible that Hashem created other life forms on other planets. It is no problem to yahadus [Judaism]. The reason man likes to think he is the only created being in the entire universe is because of his egotistical nature.

Even the concept of am ha’nivchar [chosen nation] may only be relative to our world, our small section of the universe. The Torah is written from the viewpoint of our sun, moon, and stars. It would not detract from our being the am ha’nivchar of this region of space if there were other am ha’nivchar in a distant galaxy."

(excerpt from here, which quoted from this book)
​

I heard once a class from Rabbi Ouri Cherki that when Chazal say that God looked into the Torah to see how to create the world, it's not a reference to our Torah but Ha'Torah (The Torah) - a compendium of all of the knowledge of our reality, while the Torah we received at Sinai is a specific portion of that greater Torah.

Which got me thinking: if, theoretically, there are other sentient beings out there, and they too have chosen groups, did these groups receive the same Torah that we did, or other portions of the greater Torah?

If you will excuse a contribution from a gentile, C S Lewis explored this sort of idea (from his admittedly Christian perspective), in his religious sci-fi book "Out of the Silent Planet" and its sequels. Perhaps indeed there are other chosen species out there in the cosmos.

 

[Harel13]

If you will excuse a contribution from a gentile

@exchemist it really isn't anything personal, but I posted here in the DIR because I wanted a more specific sort of discussion, from members of the DIR. Perhaps in the future we could have a separate thread on a different part of the site.

 

[exchemist]

@exchemist it really isn't anything personal, but I posted here in the DIR because I wanted a more specific sort of discussion, from members of the DIR. Perhaps in the future we could have a separate thread on a different part of the site.

OK no sweat.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm not a big fan of chosenness.

 

[Harel13]

I'm not a big fan of chosenness.

I assume you say this because you already know the traditional Jewish view of chosenness and reject that.

If so, why?

 

[dybmh]

If we only rec'd a part of a bigger Torah, then that opens up the possibility of other Creator gods. Is there more I can read about this idea of a bigger Torah than the one we rec'd?

 

[rosends]

I'm a fan of chosenness and of C.S. Lewis

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm a fan of chosenness and of C.S. Lewis

Or Rosenzweig?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I assume you say this because you already know the traditional Jewish view of chosenness and reject that.

If so, why?

I think "reject" may be too strong a term.

As you know, I do not view Torah as Holy Writ. I suspect that chosenness was, first and foremost, an expression of ethnocentrism which was only later reimagined or re-viewed through an evolving (and inspired) theological lens.

 

[Jake1001]

KISS. No one likes a smarty pants !

I think "reject" may be too strong a term.

As you know, I do not view Torah as Holy Writ. I suspect that chosenness was, first and foremost, an expression of ethnocentrism which was only later reimagined or re-viewed through an evolving (and inspired) theological lens.

 

[Jake1001]

Good question, Harel. Chosenness should logically be interpreted from a reform perspective as a beacon to other religions. In that sense your query is a non-sequitor. In the words of one of my high school buddies: “G-d did not create man, man created G-d”.

Science and religion: God didn't make man; man made gods

Can you give your OJ view of this perspective ?

@jay, have at it amigo !

...no, the title isn't meant to be antisemitic...

I saw this quote from Rabbi Yosef B. Soloveitchik the other day and found it thought-provoking (although, what in his teachings isn't? ):

Rabbi David Holzer: "Would the discovery of alien life be an issue in terms of the Torah view?"

Rabbi Yosef Soloveitchik: "It is possible that Hashem created other life forms on other planets. It is no problem to yahadus [Judaism]. The reason man likes to think he is the only created being in the entire universe is because of his egotistical nature.

Even the concept of am ha’nivchar [chosen nation] may only be relative to our world, our small section of the universe. The Torah is written from the viewpoint of our sun, moon, and stars. It would not detract from our being the am ha’nivchar of this region of space if there were other am ha’nivchar in a distant galaxy."

(excerpt from here, which quoted from this book)
​

I heard once a class from Rabbi Ouri Cherki that when Chazal say that God looked into the Torah to see how to create the world, it's not a reference to our Torah but Ha'Torah (The Torah) - a compendium of all of the knowledge of our reality, while the Torah we received at Sinai is a specific portion of that greater Torah.

Which got me thinking: if, theoretically, there are other sentient beings out there, and they too have chosen groups, did these groups receive the same Torah that we did, or other portions of the greater Torah?

 

[Harel13]

@jay, have at it amigo !

Close, Jake, but Jay is a different member. To alert Jayhawker you have to do this:
@Jayhawker Soule

 

[Jake1001]

To much effort, Harel.

I meant to copy this link, where Hawking debunks the whole “G-d” thing.

Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God

Any comments?

Close, Jake, but Jay is a different member. To alert Jayhawker you have to do this:
@Jayhawker Soule

 

[Harel13]

Good question, Harel. Chosenness should logically be interpreted from a reform perspective as a beacon to other religions. In that sense your query is a non-sequitor. In the words of one of my high school buddies: “G-d did not create man, man created G-d”.

I would not say "Man created God" - it sounds as though God is an artificial hoax. I, from an OJ perspective, would put it as "Man makes God known to the world".

In what way is my question a non-sequitur? What sort of beacon are you to other people if you make up your own values? In what way are your values better than others'? However, if you believe your values come from the One above, Who understands His creations, then that's a plus over man-made values. In which case my creative-thought question: would an alien Torah be the exact same as a human Torah?

 

[Harel13]

To much effort, Harel.

The site helps you with that, you know?

 

[Jake1001]

“Artificial hoax” is perhaps too strong. Lets just say a “fictionalized creation”.

Anyways, to answer your query, an alien Torah would look nothing like our Torah, because our Torah was entirely created by M-n !

I would not say "Man created God" - it sounds as though God is an artificial hoax. I, from an OJ perspective, would put it as "Man makes God known to the world".

In what way is my question a non-sequitur? What sort of beacon are you to other people if you make up your own values? In what way are your values better than others'? However, if you believe your values come from the One above, Who understands His creations, then that's a plus over man-made values. In which case my creative-thought question: would an alien Torah be the exact same as a human Torah?

 

[Jake1001]

. I think we’re going to be good friends !!

The site helps you with that, you know?

 

[Harel13]

“Artificial hoax” is perhaps too strong. Lets just say a “fictionalized creation”.

I think I'll stick with artificial hoax, if you don't mind.

Anyways, to answer your query, an alien Torah would look nothing like our Torah, because our Torah was entirely created by M-n !

So would you say that the underlying values would also be different? As you say, "man created God".

 

[Jake1001]

Yes, of course, in their case, “al-en” created “G-d”! Who else would adopt such goofy dietary laws ?

I think I'll stick with artificial hoax, if you don't mind.

So would you say that the underlying values would also be different? As you say, "man created God".