• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Chosen Aliens

Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
...no, the title isn't meant to be antisemitic...

I saw this quote from Rabbi Yosef B. Soloveitchik the other day and found it thought-provoking (although, what in his teachings isn't? :)):

Rabbi David Holzer: "Would the discovery of alien life be an issue in terms of the Torah view?"

Rabbi Yosef Soloveitchik: "It is possible that Hashem created other life forms on other planets. It is no problem to yahadus [Judaism]. The reason man likes to think he is the only created being in the entire universe is because of his egotistical nature.

Even the concept of am ha’nivchar [chosen nation] may only be relative to our world, our small section of the universe. The Torah is written from the viewpoint of our sun, moon, and stars. It would not detract from our being the am ha’nivchar of this region of space if there were other am ha’nivchar in a distant galaxy."

(excerpt from here, which quoted from this book)
​
I heard once a class from Rabbi Ouri Cherki that when Chazal say that God looked into the Torah to see how to create the world, it's not a reference to our Torah but Ha'Torah (The Torah) - a compendium of all of the knowledge of our reality, while the Torah we received at Sinai is a specific portion of that greater Torah.

Which got me thinking: if, theoretically, there are other sentient beings out there, and they too have chosen groups, did these groups receive the same Torah that we did, or other portions of the greater Torah?
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
Harel13 said:
...no, the title isn't meant to be antisemitic...

I saw this quote from Rabbi Yosef B. Soloveitchik the other day and found it thought-provoking (although, what in his teachings isn't? :)):

Rabbi David Holzer: "Would the discovery of alien life be an issue in terms of the Torah view?"

Rabbi Yosef Soloveitchik: "It is possible that Hashem created other life forms on other planets. It is no problem to yahadus [Judaism]. The reason man likes to think he is the only created being in the entire universe is because of his egotistical nature.

Even the concept of am ha’nivchar [chosen nation] may only be relative to our world, our small section of the universe. The Torah is written from the viewpoint of our sun, moon, and stars. It would not detract from our being the am ha’nivchar of this region of space if there were other am ha’nivchar in a distant galaxy."

(excerpt from here, which quoted from this book)
​
I heard once a class from Rabbi Ouri Cherki that when Chazal say that God looked into the Torah to see how to create the world, it's not a reference to our Torah but Ha'Torah (The Torah) - a compendium of all of the knowledge of our reality, while the Torah we received at Sinai is a specific portion of that greater Torah.

Which got me thinking: if, theoretically, there are other sentient beings out there, and they too have chosen groups, did these groups receive the same Torah that we did, or other portions of the greater Torah?
Click to expand...
If you will excuse a contribution from a gentile, C S Lewis explored this sort of idea (from his admittedly Christian perspective), in his religious sci-fi book "Out of the Silent Planet" and its sequels. Perhaps indeed there are other chosen species out there in the cosmos.
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
exchemist said:
If you will excuse a contribution from a gentile
Click to expand...
@exchemist it really isn't anything personal, but I posted here in the DIR because I wanted a more specific sort of discussion, from members of the DIR. Perhaps in the future we could have a separate thread on a different part of the site.
 
dybmh

dybmh

Terminal Optimist Judaism
If we only rec'd a part of a bigger Torah, then that opens up the possibility of other Creator gods. Is there more I can read about this idea of a bigger Torah than the one we rec'd?
 
Jayhawker Soule

Jayhawker Soule

<yawn> ignore </yawn>
Premium Member
Harel13 said:
I assume you say this because you already know the traditional Jewish view of chosenness and reject that.

If so, why?
Click to expand...

I think "reject" may be too strong a term.

As you know, I do not view Torah as Holy Writ. I suspect that chosenness was, first and foremost, an expression of ethnocentrism which was only later reimagined or re-viewed through an evolving (and inspired) theological lens.
 
J

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
KISS. No one likes a smarty pants !

Jayhawker Soule said:
I think "reject" may be too strong a term.

As you know, I do not view Torah as Holy Writ. I suspect that chosenness was, first and foremost, an expression of ethnocentrism which was only later reimagined or re-viewed through an evolving (and inspired) theological lens.
Click to expand...
 
J

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
Good question, Harel. Chosenness should logically be interpreted from a reform perspective as a beacon to other religions. In that sense your query is a non-sequitor. In the words of one of my high school buddies: “G-d did not create man, man created G-d”.

Science and religion: God didn't make man; man made gods

Can you give your OJ view of this perspective ?

@jay, have at it amigo !


Harel13 said:
...no, the title isn't meant to be antisemitic...

I saw this quote from Rabbi Yosef B. Soloveitchik the other day and found it thought-provoking (although, what in his teachings isn't? :)):

Rabbi David Holzer: "Would the discovery of alien life be an issue in terms of the Torah view?"

Rabbi Yosef Soloveitchik: "It is possible that Hashem created other life forms on other planets. It is no problem to yahadus [Judaism]. The reason man likes to think he is the only created being in the entire universe is because of his egotistical nature.

Even the concept of am ha’nivchar [chosen nation] may only be relative to our world, our small section of the universe. The Torah is written from the viewpoint of our sun, moon, and stars. It would not detract from our being the am ha’nivchar of this region of space if there were other am ha’nivchar in a distant galaxy."

(excerpt from here, which quoted from this book)
​
I heard once a class from Rabbi Ouri Cherki that when Chazal say that God looked into the Torah to see how to create the world, it's not a reference to our Torah but Ha'Torah (The Torah) - a compendium of all of the knowledge of our reality, while the Torah we received at Sinai is a specific portion of that greater Torah.

Which got me thinking: if, theoretically, there are other sentient beings out there, and they too have chosen groups, did these groups receive the same Torah that we did, or other portions of the greater Torah?
Click to expand...
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Jake1001 said:
Good question, Harel. Chosenness should logically be interpreted from a reform perspective as a beacon to other religions. In that sense your query is a non-sequitor. In the words of one of my high school buddies: “G-d did not create man, man created G-d”.
Click to expand...
I would not say "Man created God" - it sounds as though God is an artificial hoax. I, from an OJ perspective, would put it as "Man makes God known to the world".

In what way is my question a non-sequitur? What sort of beacon are you to other people if you make up your own values? In what way are your values better than others'? However, if you believe your values come from the One above, Who understands His creations, then that's a plus over man-made values. In which case my creative-thought question: would an alien Torah be the exact same as a human Torah?
 
J

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
“Artificial hoax” is perhaps too strong. Lets just say a “fictionalized creation”.

Anyways, to answer your query, an alien Torah would look nothing like our Torah, because our Torah was entirely created by M-n !


Harel13 said:
I would not say "Man created God" - it sounds as though God is an artificial hoax. I, from an OJ perspective, would put it as "Man makes God known to the world".

In what way is my question a non-sequitur? What sort of beacon are you to other people if you make up your own values? In what way are your values better than others'? However, if you believe your values come from the One above, Who understands His creations, then that's a plus over man-made values. In which case my creative-thought question: would an alien Torah be the exact same as a human Torah?
Click to expand...
 
Harel13

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Jake1001 said:
“Artificial hoax” is perhaps too strong. Lets just say a “fictionalized creation”.
Click to expand...
I think I'll stick with artificial hoax, if you don't mind. :)
Jake1001 said:
Anyways, to answer your query, an alien Torah would look nothing like our Torah, because our Torah was entirely created by M-n !
Click to expand...
So would you say that the underlying values would also be different? As you say, "man created God".
 
J

Jake1001

Computer Simulator
Yes, of course, in their case, “al-en” created “G-d”! Who else would adopt such goofy dietary laws ? ;)

Harel13 said:
I think I'll stick with artificial hoax, if you don't mind. :)

So would you say that the underlying values would also be different? As you say, "man created God".
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top