Choosing One's Beliefs

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

By what reasoning do you arrive at that conclusion? Our not knowing means that we don't know. It doesn't automatically default to "it's not so".

We don't accept information or claims in everyday life without good evidence do we? As I've already said, if you tell me humans can fly I'm going to reject that based on my experience and education. I'm not going to say "I do not know if I can fly, so I'll give it a go." My position would be "show me good evidence that humans can fly", and until you gave me that my "default" position would be not to believe you. Fair enough?

When one of those loved ones is suffering, or dies, you will find yourself facing those 'metaphysical' questions. And the fact that the vast majority of people choose to believe in God, and follow some form of religious doctrine, would indicate that they do ponder those metaphysical questions even if you aren't.

Hogwash. I accept that some people get bitten by the religion bug when someone they love dies, but plenty don't. Some might say the last thing they want when a loved one dies is a religionist telling them whether that person is in heaven or hell. I'm at an age where I'm looking at the prospect of loved ones dieing on me in the years to come. I suspect you can guess how much I'm going to welcome religionists at those moments.

 

[Deidre]

I think that people can hang onto beliefs without those beliefs being based on anything ''true'', or even needing it to be true, for a very long time. Faith, spirituality, etc is often built around emotions, and not logic or ''truth.'' But, honestly, truth is usually brought to us by a conclusion, or series of conclusions. Not choices. Like concluding that 2+2=4 (in most cases lol). You can choose to not believe that 2+2=4, but why? If someone tells you that you are a cat, and keeps convincing you that you are a cat and not a human, and you ''choose'' to believe that you are a cat...then, that's a choice. But, you can't choose truth. It just is.

Religion is a lot like my cat analogy...telling people things that aren't really based on facts or objective truths, but wanting them to believe it.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I think that people can hang onto beliefs without those beliefs being based on anything ''true'', or even needing it to be true, for a very long time. Faith, spirituality, etc is often built around emotions, and not logic or ''truth.'' But, honestly, truth is usually brought to us by a conclusion, or series of conclusions. Not choices. Like concluding that 2+2=4 (in most cases lol). You can choose to not believe that 2+2=4, but why? If someone tells you that you are a cat, and keeps convincing you that you are a cat and not a human, and you ''choose'' to believe that you are a cat...then, that's a choice. But, you can't choose truth. It just is.

Religion is a lot like my cat analogy...telling people things that aren't really based on facts or objective truths, but wanting them to believe it.

Correct Deidre, reality has some unpleasantness attached to it, better we face up to it because it isn't going to go away any day soon.

 

[DavidFirth]

What is truth?

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

What is truth?

You know what David? I wish Jesus had answered his own question there. It would have resolved a lot of arguments further down the line!

 

[DavidFirth]

You know what David? I wish Jesus had answered his own question there. It would have resolved a lot of arguments further down the line!

Actually, he did.

"I am the way, the truth and the life."

The truth was looking Pilate in the eyes and he knew it not.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Actually, he did.

"I am the way, the truth and the life."

The truth was looking Pilate in the eyes and he knew it not.

I think you know what I meant though, if that is what Jesus meant why did he not say "I am truth, you need look no further". He answered a question with a question. Most unhelpful!

 

[DavidFirth]

I think you know what I meant though, if that is what Jesus meant why did he not say "I am truth, you need look no further". He answered a question with a question. Most unhelpful!

Well, He did testify to the truth to Pilate. Pilate knew He was innocent but sentenced Him to death, anyway. I think Pilate knew the truth but chose to be a "good" politician instead. Even Pilate's own wife told him to have nothing to do with Him because He was innocent.

 

[Deidre]

Actually, he did.

"I am the way, the truth and the life."

The truth was looking Pilate in the eyes and he knew it not.

Do you believe in subjective vs objective truth? Every belief isn't based on objective truth. I love sushi and I can convince you to try it, and if you try it but hate it...I wouldn't condemn you for it. But, that doesn't mean sushi is amazing. It means that I just think it's amazing.

Same with faith beliefs. Obviously not as simplistic. lol But, if something is blatantly true, it won't be a mere belief. Or at the very least, it won't be based on subjective opinion. I used to follow Jesus, but it was my subjective opinion that he was objective truth.

 

[DavidFirth]

Do you believe in subjective vs objective truth? Every belief isn't based on objective truth. I love sushi and I can convince you to try it, and if you try it but hate it...I wouldn't condemn you for it. But, that doesn't mean sushi is amazing. It means that I just think it's amazing.

Same with faith beliefs. Obviously not as simplistic. lol But, if something is blatantly true, it won't be a mere belief. Or at the very least, it won't be based on subjective opinion. I used to follow Jesus, but it was my subjective opinion that he was objective truth.

You over think it, I think. If you concentrate on Christ Himself and seek out God with all your heart you will find Him.

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

 

[DavidFirth]

If you seek out God with less than all your heart you will find something less than God.

 

[Deidre]

You over think it, I think. If you concentrate on Christ Himself and seek out God with all your heart you will find Him.

Jeremiah 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.

...but not your mind. lol

Religion preys on our emotions, I won't talk you out of your beliefs for I have been a theist...I have believed in Christianity. (with my heart) But, if you involve your mind in the process, you'll find that the Bible is really illogical at best and dangerous at its worst.

 

[DavidFirth]

...but not your mind. lol

Religion preys on our emotions, I won't talk you out of your beliefs for I have been a theist...I have believed in Christianity. (with my heart) But, if you involve your mind in the process, you'll find that the Bible is really illogical at best and dangerous at its worst.

You must be led by the Spirit. If you proceed in the flesh only you will sow and therefore reap what your flesh desires. And this will never be enough.

 

[Deidre]

You must be led by the Spirit. If you proceed in the flesh only you will sow and therefore reap what your flesh desires. And this will never be enough.

Whatever you say. We do have a mind for a reason. And...for reason. lol Funny how the Bible never talks about using our minds to find truth, isn't that interesting? It's always our hearts (emotions)

 

[DavidFirth]

Whatever you say. We do have a mind for a reason. And...for reason. lol Funny how the Bible never talks about using our minds to find truth, isn't that interesting? It's always our hearts (emotions)

The heart seeks out the truth. The mind seeks out what is good for self. We love with our hearts and think with our minds.

Adam's and Eve's minds were deceived by the serpent, not their hearts.

 

[sayak83]

Now let me explain how this works in actual practice.

I have long considered the proposal of the existence of "God", and have decided that I cannot know the nature or existence of such a 'being'. I can, however, accept that such a being exists based on my desire that such a being exist, and on the amazing and inexplicable mystery that existence continues to show itself to be. And furthermore, I can reasonably attribute some "divine", or "transcendent" attributes to this being as I have witness them being expressed within my experience of reality.

So although I can prove nothing, I can reasonably accept that some sort of divine entity exists as the source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is. And that I can witness the 'spirit' of this divinity, though not the actual character of it, in the expressions of love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity that are occurring all around me, and in me, via my own experience of existential reality.

And I can test the "truthfulness" of this proposed 'divine being/spirit' by adopting it as the truth, and then living in accord with that truth as best I can. Which I have done, and found that it "works" by my definition of that criteria, and within my experience and understanding of existential reality.

Thus, I have chosen to become an agnostic theist, as I have deliberately have taken on that truth and have found that it "works" for me as 'the truth'.

I could at any time choose to drop this presumption of reality and truth, and try something other, but so far this is working well enough that I see no reason to bother.

Very well written. Kudos.

What is the criteria by which you decide that it is "working for you"?

 

[sayak83]

What we believe to be true depends on how we go about determining truthfulness. If we want to change the things we "believe in", all we have to do is examine the way we arrived at the presumption of their truthfulness, and change the criteria. This can sometimes be difficult, but it's not that difficult, and it's certainly possible.

When I realized that the existence of God could not be verified, by anyone, I understood that this afforded my a great opportunity. That opportunity being that I could define this undefined entity any way I wanted to. Any way that I thought made sense to me. And any way that I find particularly positive and effecting in my life. And no one can show me that my "God" is invalid because no human has that capability. (Though many think they do.) Belief in god is not based on knowledge. Which means it's based on something else. And to me, logically, that something else would be effect, and desire.

I have explored a number of variations on the "God" idea, and I reserve the right to alter, change, drop, or co-opt the idea at any time and for whatever reason I choose. And I can do this because I recognize that my idea of "God" is just my idea of "God". It's not the "truth of God". At least not by any measure that I can muster. So I don't believe in God because I think God exists exactly or even mostly as I imagine; I believe in my "God" because I find that doing so works well for me. I don't really even care that much if God exists beyond my conception. Because it's my conception of God that works for me. And I can logically and reasonably maintain that conception for as long as I remain a limited and ignorant human.

And so can any atheist, here.

But this seems to make your God a pure exercise of your flight to fantasy. Does your experience of life and living have no bearing or provide no constraint on this God? Can you seriously maintain the sense of importance of God in your life if you know that you made it up?

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

By what reasoning do you arrive at that conclusion? Our not knowing means that we don't know. It doesn't automatically default to "it's not so".

Okay then, I'll take "I don't know", either way I'm not falling on my face to petition a deity. Show me the evidence of your deity and then I might consider it.

When one of those loved ones is suffering, or dies, you will find yourself facing those 'metaphysical' questions. And the fact that the vast majority of people choose to believe in God, and follow some form of religious doctrine, would indicate that they do ponder those metaphysical questions even if you aren't.

For the second time I say hogwash. That may be true in your culture but I live in the UK where Christianity died many years ago. People do not blub and beseech god to let the deceased into heaven here. We tend to focus on the individual and celebrate his or her life. Sure, religion still plays a part but "vast majority"? Don't think so, just saying pal. I won't be thinking of god or the afterlife when I lose the next loved one.

 

[osgart]

in regards to belief, people have a concept they discovered, say compassion, they recognize the reality of compassion only when they experience it themselves. that's how you know the heart of soul is real.

in believing in something, you might create a concept, and set forth in a quest to make that concept real. So you create God, and hope that you will discover God, and that your version of God is a worthy aspiration. The requirement is that your concept works in reality, and bears you good through your life, and mayhaps keep you from harm.
in regards to truth being absolute, there's only virtue, and good character that are absolute truthes; that and the physical world. everything else is subject to changing.

often our beliefs are determined by our reality. free will is something to achieve this way. if you can know or create something in reality that empowers you to be free, than you'll be free indeed.
existence though has a way of determining our external reality, and it can't be ignored.

your inner reality is all your love of fall, or love of choice. but at the end of the day everything has to jive with justice and reality, for to make and create a better world.

 

[Curious George]

No, belief does not need a reason, etc. Belief may or may not be predicated on reason, or other things; that is not inferred either way, by the word belief.

Hence my addition to "because of" I agree in some instances it can be "depite," just not all.

Given your above post I think we are saying the same thing.