Chirstianity is where I found God in religion.

[Windwalker]

Let me explain the title of this thread. When I say Christianity is where I found God in religion, that means that's the religion I found trying to explain God in my search to understand the God I had encountered before religion. Finding God in religion, was not the same as finding God outside religion for me. Subsequently, the language I use to try to speak of God is laced with religious language, predominantly Christian as that was the language I adopted trying to describe this experience of the divine. But I have found that all religious language is that attempt as well, regardless. If we can ever seem to see past the words we use to what we all feel into, or are immersed within, then we have managed something worthwhile.

I'm wondering how may feel that we need to acknowledge how we talk about God, or the Infinite, the Absolute, or whatever term we choose, is so very incidental to the reality of it that we should just openly say, "I don't believe. I love."?

 

[Spiderman]

I like that "I don't believe. I love"

But believing is good too.

 

[allfoak]

Let me explain the title of this thread. When I say Christianity is where I found God in religion, that means that's the religion I found trying to explain God in my search to understand the God I had encountered before religion. Finding God in religion, was not the same as finding God outside religion for me. Subsequently, the language I use to try to speak of God is laced with religious language, predominantly Christian as that was the language I adopted trying to describe this experience of the divine. But I have found that all religious language is that attempt as well, regardless. If we can ever seem to see past the words we use to what we all feel into, or are immersed within, then we have managed something worthwhile.

I'm wondering how may feel that we need to acknowledge how we talk about God, or the Infinite, the Absolute, or whatever term we choose, is so very incidental to the reality of it that we should just openly say, "I don't believe. I love."?

Carl Jung said: " I don't need to believe, I know".
Your insight and desire to fix the problem you see is commendable.
Since everyone is in a different place in their understanding, it will always be left to those with the greater understanding to lift the others up.

 

[buddhist]

I'm wondering how may feel that we need to acknowledge how we talk about God, or the Infinite, the Absolute, or whatever term we choose, is so very incidental to the reality of it that we should just openly say, "I don't believe. I love."?

Love is not the highest ideal in my mind.

 

[Lyndon]

Love is not the highest ideal in my mind.

Leave it to our right wing Buddhist friend to say something like that!!

 

[Kemosloby]

I believe Jesus, who said " If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them." So "love your enemies too". Now how would I have any enemies if I didn't have different beliefs? And how would I get any credit if I didn't have enemies? Not a problem, there are a great many people on the Earth to disagree with, and "love" despite being enemies on account of belief.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Let me explain the title of this thread. When I say Christianity is where I found God in religion, that means that's the religion I found trying to explain God in my search to understand the God I had encountered before religion. Finding God in religion, was not the same as finding God outside religion for me. Subsequently, the language I use to try to speak of God is laced with religious language, predominantly Christian as that was the language I adopted trying to describe this experience of the divine. But I have found that all religious language is that attempt as well, regardless. If we can ever seem to see past the words we use to what we all feel into, or are immersed within, then we have managed something worthwhile.

I'm wondering how may feel that we need to acknowledge how we talk about God, or the Infinite, the Absolute, or whatever term we choose, is so very incidental to the reality of it that we should just openly say, "I don't believe. I love."?

Interesting post.

I came to believe in God through Christianity, the religion I was brought up in. But then I felt like it had imprisoned my thoughts so I took a journey to better understand why. Through that journey I found God in the Baha'i Faith. Then I released Jesus died so I may live. Baha'u'llah spent much of His life in prison so I could be free. The metaphors explained different aspects of the journey.

 

[Windwalker]

Love is not the highest ideal in my mind.

It's not an ideal in my mind either. Love is not a concept of the mind. It is the Condition of our very being. When we realize it in ourselves, all divisions dissolve.

 

[Windwalker]

I believe Jesus, who said " If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them." So "love your enemies too". Now how would I have any enemies if I didn't have different beliefs? And how would I get any credit if I didn't have enemies? Not a problem, there are a great many people on the Earth to disagree with, and "love" despite being enemies on account of belief.

It is interesting you bring this passage up. I'd been struck by it rather profoundly yesterday prior to posting this topic, and it was part of it even though I didn't expressly quote from it. I'll share briefly my thoughts and how it relates to this.

As we differentiate ourselves from other we naturally create boundaries of what pertains to or defines us, and what does not. In our group formations it is the same thing on a collective basis; what belongs and what does not; what or who is in, and what or who is not. This is not necessarily in itself a bad thing. However in order to emphasize and stress these divisions we demonize the "other" that we cannot reconcile with those things our group values. We make them the "enemy" of us.

Now the very exact same thing is what we do to ourselves as individuals. We split ourselves off from ourselves, we deny, reject, repress, and even hate those parts of ourselves which do not fit that image of what we wish we to see ourselves as. Much of that image is one which our culture tells us is good, as well as bad. The first "enemy" we encounter is the enemy within us. But that enemy is not an overt foe we can say "I hate you" to openly, as it sits in the dark of our own psyches, which in the dark corners of our minds we imagine as growling at us like an angry dog we keep locked in a cage in a dark room in our house wishing it did not exist, denying it exists and is at the end in fact us.

So to "love your enemies" is first realized in ourselves, with ourselves. All has to be brought into the Light. "For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open." When we learn to "love your enemies", you first learn to love yourself. You don't vanquish and destroy these demons, this "evil other", but rather you see beyond the eyes of hate, with the eyes of love through Love.

At which point, that which was your enemy is seen as a creation of your own demon-making process, and Love dissolves that relationship and allows it to become an ally in service of our greater good, not working against us, but for us. It's hard to explain this, but imagine how a child only wants your love, and acts out badly when it feels mistreated and rejected. To "overcome" the bad behavior, it is often better done by getting rid of the source of it. It is better to love, than to hate.

"Do not fight to expel the darkness from the chamber of your soul. Open a tiny aperture for light to enter, and the darkness will disappear." ~St. Porphyrios. Love truly overcomes, and this is how it does; not by force, but by Grace. Love your enemies applies to all our relationships, especially our own selves first. As we learn how to love our enemies beginning first with ourselves, then we can love the whole world.

 

[Kemosloby]

It is interesting you bring this passage up. I'd been struck by it rather profoundly yesterday prior to posting this topic, and it was part of it even though I didn't expressly quote from it. I'll share briefly my thoughts and how it relates to this.

As we differentiate ourselves from other we naturally create boundaries of what pertains to or defines us, and what does not. In our group formations it is the same thing on a collective basis; what belongs and what does not; what or who is in, and what or who is not. This is not necessarily in itself a bad thing. However in order to emphasize and stress these divisions we demonize the "other" that we cannot reconcile with those things our group values. We make them the "enemy" of us.

Now the very exact same thing is what we do to ourselves as individuals. We split ourselves off from ourselves, we deny, reject, repress, and even hate those parts of ourselves which do not fit that image of what we wish we to see ourselves as. Much of that image is one which our culture tells us is good, as well as bad. The first "enemy" we encounter is the enemy within us. But that enemy is not an overt foe we can say "I hate you" to openly, as it sits in the dark of our own psyches, which in the dark corners of our minds we imagine as growling at us like an angry dog we keep locked in a cage in a dark room in our house wishing it did not exist, denying it exists and is at the end in fact us.

So to "love your enemies" is first realized in ourselves, with ourselves. All has to be brought into the Light. "For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open." When we learn to "love your enemies", you first learn to love yourself. You don't vanquish and destroy these demons, this "evil other", but rather you see beyond the eyes of hate, with the eyes of love through Love.

At which point, that which was your enemy is seen as a creation of your own demon-making process, and Love dissolves that relationship and allows it to become an ally in service of our greater good, not working against us, but for us. It's hard to explain this, but imagine how a child only wants your love, and acts out badly when it feels mistreated and rejected. To "overcome" the bad behavior, it is often better done by getting rid of the source of it. It is better to love, than to hate.

"Do not fight to expel the darkness from the chamber of your soul. Open a tiny aperture for light to enter, and the darkness will disappear." ~St. Porphyrios. Love truly overcomes, and this is how it does; not by force, but by Grace. Love your enemies applies to all our relationships, especially our own selves first. As we learn how to love our enemies beginning first with ourselves, then we can love the whole world.

Yeah that's sort of what the Apostles were teaching, particularly Paul. "The law of sin works within us" against the "law of God", and "when I sin it's not I who sins but sin which dwells within me", but the never teach to befriend Sin. Only realizes it's unprofitable to fight with Sin.

 

[Tabu]

"I don't believe. I love."?

Brahmakumaris believe that
Love is the inherent nature of all souls , our natures are loving since we are children of the Ocean of love ,
But there is a very fine line between this Love and Attachment and we often mistake attachments for Love. If it is accompanied with hurt and intolerance to an opposing view than it is identified as attachment or Ego a negative quality which returns sorrow as against Love which is positive and brings happiness.

 

[Windwalker]

Yeah that's sort of what the Apostles were teaching, particularly Paul. "The law of sin works within us" against the "law of God", and "when I sin it's not I who sins but sin which dwells within me", but the never teach to befriend Sin. Only realizes it's unprofitable to fight with Sin.

I think "befriend sin" is an overstatement of what I meant, if you took it that way. Of course what I mean by this, "love your enemy", does not mean give into the negative impulses that result from the sin, but dissolve sin itself, the source of sin itself, through divine Love. As I said, it's a little hard to describe and talk about this, but the sin itself is created by disowning and separating ourselves from ourselves. The result is negative. The result is disease. The result is war and death. If we simply acknowledge the other first, not in judgement of rejections but through the eyes and heart of love, then the source of the animosity dissolves and both sides lays down their weapons of war. There is no more sin at that point. A screaming child is best dealt with through loving it, not slapping it.

 

[Kemosloby]

I think "befriend sin" is an overstatement of what I meant, if you took it that way. Of course what I mean by this, "love your enemy", does not mean give into the negative impulses that result from the sin, but dissolve sin itself, the source of sin itself, through divine Love. As I said, it's a little hard to describe and talk about this, but the sin itself is created by disowning and separating ourselves from ourselves. The result is negative. The result is disease. The result is war and death. If we simply acknowledge the other first, not in judgement of rejections but through the eyes and heart of love, then the source of the animosity dissolves and both sides lays down their weapons of war. There is no more sin at that point. A screaming child is best dealt with through loving it, not slapping it.

Screaming is no sin though. But strict rules might cause a child to start to scream and rebel, hate their parents and make it a point to break every rule ever made. So I guess it's a balance of not befriending sin and not trying to destroy sin, but sin management until the judgement day, when through death and resurrection God fixes our sinful nature, and gives us rest.

 

[buddhist]

It's not an ideal in my mind either. Love is not a concept of the mind. It is the Condition of our very being. When we realize it in ourselves, all divisions dissolve.

I wasn't saying that love is merely a concept; love has its faults, and still leads to great sufferings.

 

[Windwalker]

I wasn't saying that love is merely a concept; love has its faults, and still leads to great sufferings.

That's not the Love I'm talking about. I'm not talking of human emotions, but the State of Being that all arises from.

 

[buddhist]

That's not the Love I'm talking about. I'm not talking of human emotions, but the State of Being that all arises from.

Describe this "State of Being" please?

 

[Windwalker]

Screaming is no sin though.

Extend the analogy. The screaming child is so upset he starts hitting and scratching, kicking and breaking things. Do you deal with this by slapping the child, or trying to limit the damage and then getting to the source of the ensuing bad behavior? All of this is an analogy to our own "sinful" tendencies, our acting out that happens, I believe, because we have some self-hatred going on.

You cannot disown a part of yourself and expect it not to rebel. When you make peace with yourself, when you embrace that "ugly" child we have rejected, then you suddenly see all it wanted was to feel loved and accepted by you, and the source of its "sin" or acting out badly, is removed. What was a "demon child", is now your friend and ally. You have welcomed it home, and it is not longer your enemy. "Love your enemies".

But strict rules might cause a child to start to scream and rebel, hate their parents and make it a point to break every rule ever made.

I don't think our saying no to our lower impulses is what causes sin. I think rejection and hatred of our lower impulses, as opposed to simply being disciplined and controlled, is what leads to a dissociation without the reality of who we are. Again, you don't "give in" to the impulses, but you also don't "hate" them. When you do, you're setting yourself up for some problems. You bring them into compliance through Grace, works far, far better than beating them with a rod.

So I guess it's a balance of not befriending sin and not trying to destroy sin, but sin management until the judgement day, when through death and resurrection God fixes our sinful nature, and gives us rest.

BTW, I don't agree with the notion of "sinful nature". The sin management really is simply a matter of being disciplined, and filled with love, rather than division and self-hatred. “More than those who hate you, more than all your enemies, an undisciplined mind does greater harm.” ~Buddha

 

[Windwalker]

Describe this "State of Being" please?

The Condition of all conditions. Satchitananda. Being, Consciousness, Bliss. Nirguna and Saguna Brahman. Emptiness and Fullness. God is Love. And so forth.

 

[Kemosloby]

Extend the analogy. The screaming child is so upset he starts hitting and scratching, kicking and breaking things. Do you deal with this by slapping the child, or trying to limit the damage and then getting to the source of the ensuing bad behavior? All of this is an analogy to our own "sinful" tendencies, our acting out that happens, I believe, because we have some self-hatred going on.

You cannot disown a part of yourself and expect it not to rebel. When you make peace with yourself, when you embrace that "ugly" child we have rejected, then you suddenly see all it wanted was to feel loved and accepted by you, and the source of its "sin" or acting out badly, is removed. What was a "demon child", is now your friend and ally. You have welcomed it home, and it is not longer your enemy. "Love your enemies".


I don't think our saying no to our lower impulses is what causes sin. I think rejection and hatred of our lower impulses, as opposed to simply being disciplined and controlled, is what leads to a dissociation without the reality of who we are. Again, you don't "give in" to the impulses, but you also don't "hate" them. When you do, you're setting yourself up for some problems. You bring them into compliance through Grace, works far, far better than beating them with a rod.


BTW, I don't agree with the notion of "sinful nature". The sin management really is simply a matter of being disciplined, and filled with love, rather than division and self-hatred. “More than those who hate you, more than all your enemies, an undisciplined mind does greater harm.” ~Buddha

Turn the lights off to sin and you've got no problem, but the Law was given to make us aware of sin. So to reject the existence of sin is against God. God wants us to be aware that we are sinners or he would have never given the law.

 

[buddhist]

The Condition of all conditions. Satchitananda. Being, Consciousness, Bliss. Nirguna and Saguna Brahman. Emptiness and Fullness. God is Love. And so forth.

Glad to hear you found your goal in those states of being.

My perceived ultimate goal is non-being, non-conditioning, non-fashioning.