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China's Suppression of Falun Gong

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,
Personal understanding of Falun Gong and the Chinese Govt.'s oppression is only POWER.
The Govt. does not wish any type of another power centre that could be a future threat,
Love & rgds
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Blurry?

Try non-existent.

It's all about governmental power; the religious reasons for the inquisition and crusades were second-hand.

Actually they were first hand. The church was the state, there was no separating the church from the state, they were one and the same.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
OK, you guys are just emphasizing my point. In the Dark Ages, European government and religion were combined. In modern China, it's atheism and the governement.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
OK, you guys are just emphasizing my point. In the Dark Ages, European government and religion were combined. In modern China, it's atheism and the governement.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse here: The Chinese government is atheistic as a result of wanting complete authority and control. Athiesm is not the cause.

Whereas, religion in the Middle-Ages was the cause of wanting complete control and authority. Religion was the driving force of the government.

If you can somehow show that athiesm is a driving force of the Chinese government, then I'll think you have something.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Can you show, as opposed to simply asserting, that religion was the cause? Blend religion (using the word loosely) and political power, bad things happen, be it atheism or Christianity.

You seem to have forgotten this, so I'll repeat it: I do NOT believe that atheism is the driving force behind the suppression of the Falun Gong. So asking me to show that it is is rather silly, if not a strawman.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Storm said:
Can you show, as opposed to simply asserting, that religion was the cause? Blend religion (using the word loosely) and political power, bad things happen, be it atheism or Christianity.
Personally, I find the assertion that the Church was not in control of the government to be the stranger assumption.

As for the idea that the Church was the source of the drive for complete control and authority, I merely base that on common sense: The Church sought to control people both spiritually and governmentally. This is evidenced by the stranglehold it had upon religion, and its overt presence in the government. If the Church did not seek complete control, then why did it go through such great pains to put itself in a position of complete control?

Anyway, regardless of any of that, it was Pope Urban the II that launched the first Crusades. Not the government. So there is a clear religious backing of the Crusades (and obviously the Inquisition). There is not, you must admit, the same clear backing of the suppression of the Falun Gong.

Storm said:
You seem to have forgotten this, so I'll repeat it: I do NOT believe that atheism is the driving force behind the suppression of the Falun Gong. So asking me to show that it is is rather silly, if not a strawman.

Ok. I'm not trying to make a strawman, I'm just trying to make sense of your accusation.
No more or less than the Crusades or Inquisition were examples of Christianity run amok. To those who defend atheism in this instance, while condemning Chrstianity in those, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

And

Storm said:
Just to make sure I'm absolutely clear, I don't think atheism is the cause of this oppression, I was just peeved at what I saw as a double standard.

My underlining.

You are claiming that is hypocritical to criticize Christianity for the Crusades and the Inquisition, and not athiesm for the suppression of the Falun Gong. But then you say that you don't think it is atheism that is suppressing the Falun Gong. How, then, are we being hypocritical in not condemning atheism for something it hasn't done?
 
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Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
You are claiming that is hypocritical to criticize Christianity for the Crusades and the Inquisition, and not athiesm for the suppression of the Falun Gong. But then you say that you don't think it is atheism that is suppressing the Falun Gong. How, then, are we being hypocritical in not condemning atheism for something it hasn't done?
Because you blame the worldview you dislike (Christianity) for the evils done in its name, while giving the worldview you favor (atheism) a pass on the same thing.

I see the atrocities as the same thing: the inevitably tragic consequence of religious intolerance backed by political power. Now, I don't hold (a)religious beliefs responsible for such things. I just think that if you do, you should be consistent.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
OK, you guys are just emphasizing my point. In the Dark Ages, European government and religion were combined. In modern China, it's atheism and the governement.

Atheism is predicated on their being theists. If there are no theists, there are no atheists. People aren't running around in China claiming there is a God, at least not enough to influence their culture, so there's no atheists identifying themselves as atheists and disagreeing with them. When I stated that the Falun Gong were atheists, that statement was from our point of view since there are a lot of theists here in the west.


Falun Gong is a spiritual discipline founded in China by Li Hongzhi in 1992.[1] wiki
 
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dogsgod

Well-Known Member
I think you are putting the cart before the horse here: The Chinese government is atheistic as a result of wanting complete authority and control. Athiesm is not the cause.

Whereas, religion in the Middle-Ages was the cause of wanting complete control and authority. Religion was the driving force of the government.

If you can somehow show that athiesm is a driving force of the Chinese government, then I'll think you have something.

Exactly, atheism is the end result. However, there needs to be a better word because atheists are the opposite of theists, and there were no theist in China to begin with. In the case of the Falun Gong, they are spiritualists and are only viewed as atheists from a theistic perspective.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
You have a really weird sense of atheism.

There are atheists as long as there are theists around to disagree with. Imagine an island where no one believes in any god simply because they never heard of one and never invented one. Why would they consider themselves as atheists?
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
I don't know what atheism is. Atheist don't partake in shared beliefs, practices and rituals, so how does not partaking get an ism attached to it. Do all those that don't go to church on Sunday morning belong to an ism? What about people that don't partake in stamp collecting?
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
When someone accuses atheism of doing something bad, I can't help but think that those that don't collect stamps could be just as responsible. How come atheism gets the blame and not non stamp collecterism?
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
I don't know what atheism is. Atheist don't partake in shared beliefs, practices and rituals, so how does not partaking get an ism attached to it. Do all those that don't go to church on Sunday morning belong to an ism? What about people that don't partake in stamp collecting?

It's sort of a weird linguistic thing, because your right, atheism isn't an ism. It's just a lack of belief in a god or gods.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
A theist believes god/s exist. The Falun Gong do not share a common belief in nor worship a god. By definition they are atheists.

I did a word search on the Falun Gong wiki page. The words "God" and "worship" are not found.
No, but it did mention "spirit of the universe." Sounds like a God to me.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
No, but it did mention "spirit of the universe." Sounds like a God to me.
I did a search and that came up negative. Maybe you can copy and paste for us. Thanx.

It's possible that the page was updated recently and no longer includes the phrase.
 
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Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
It is foolish to blame a religion on anything. Religion is not a sentient being that tells people what to do. Evil people go under the flag of religion to disguise their true intent. It is all about money, power, control. These things propel people into doing terrible things falsely under the banner of a religion. It does not mean that a religion has anything to do with it. The sooner you recognize who the real enemy is the sooner we can fix the problems of the world. Blaming it on religion, lifestyles, beliefs, etc is doing nobody any good at all. Example Islam. The terrorist have almost ruined this religions reputation, by claiming God has ordered them to kill. When in fact it is just evil people like Osama who fly under the flag of Islam to try and cover up, that he is really just a power hungry imbecile.
 
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dogsgod

Well-Known Member
It is foolish to blame a religion on anything. Religion is not a sentient being that tells people what to do. Evil people go under the flag of religion to disguise their true intent. It is all about money, power, control. These things propel people into doing terrible things falsely under the banner of a religion. It does not mean that a religion has anything to do with it. The sooner you recognize who the real enemy is the sooner we can fix the problems of the world. Blaming it on religion, lifestyles, beliefs, etc is doing nobody any good at all. Example Islam. The terrorist have almost ruined this religions reputation, by claiming God has ordered them to kill. When in fact it is just evil people like Osama who fly under the flag of Islam to try and cover up, that he is really just a power hungry imbecile.

Of course religious beliefs and convictions can be blamed to a degree. Religion serves as an efficient catalyst. People believe the world works certain ways and then act on it. Sure it's possible to lead people into war without religion but it would be far more difficult to accomplish.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I did a search and that came up negative. Maybe you can copy and paste for us. Thanx.

It's possible that the page was updated recently and no longer includes the phrase.
Or I'm getting my sources confused, as I looked at a couple other sites. I'll try to find it in a bit.
 
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