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China is getting even more dangerous now.

F1fan

Veteran Member
No. Starting a war is completely China's decision.
So far it is YOUR decision that China will decide to strike first. But you offer no reason why they would follow your suggestion and attack us. What is the plan that supports your belief that China will attack? How does it pay off for China to launch nuclear weapons?

And it's true that a possibility of nuclear warfare is always on the table.
Since the late 1940's, we know. Kennedy got us close to that. Reagan made that ramp up to levels that made many citizens very nervous. Fortunately foreign policy worked it all out. I don't see China any more foolish than Russia was.

It wouldn't surprise me if some American conservatives would opt for a nuclear war over democrats winning more seats in politics.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Who has the most seems a poor measure of thuggery & danger.
Don't need nukes to kill tens of millions, as Mao & Stalin showed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin
https://u.osu.edu/mclc/2018/02/08/who-killed-more-hitler-stalin-or-mao/
Right. A leader can just deny there's a deadly virus, like Brazil's far-right president, Jair Bolsonaro. He is being indicted for crimes of causing half the deaths in Brazil. And we see trump's lack of proactive work and negligence. He could arguably face similar charges if there wasn't protections for politicians.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Tell Tibet, Taiwan, S Vietnam, & the Uighurs that we're
more dangerous. The competition for most thuggish
is stiff indeed.

Not sure what the Tibetans or Uighurs would say, although Taiwan (through its connection to previous Chinese governments prior to 1949) and South Vietnam have seen the more dangerous side of America firsthand. I don't know if that makes one side "more dangerous" than the other, as that's pretty subjective anyway.

They probably see China as the more immediate danger, although it's largely been the U.S. as the world's kingpin of interventionism and military forces all over the world, at least since WW2. Russia tried to compete, but couldn't cut it, while China has been largely a bit player by comparison.

We already have numerous military bases within close proximity to China (in Japan, South Korea, Philippines) and an active naval presence throughout the region. Imagine if the Chinese had bases in Mexico and Canada and had fleets of warships operating along our shores. Americans would be freaking out about it. That's what "more dangerous" looks like.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
A BBC radio story yesterday explained how nations are relying less and less on their own forces to wage war, but instead are using mercenaries. One example was how Russia used mercenaries in Ukraine, and that was to avoid the foreign policy problems. It's a growing business.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Not sure what the Tibetans or Uighurs would say, although Taiwan (through its connection to previous Chinese governments prior to 1949) and South Vietnam have seen the more dangerous side of America firsthand.
You doubt that Tibetans & Uighurs see China as
an authoritarian aggressor? Fascinating.
S Vietnam saw the more dangerous side of China
too. That's the point.
Some people have such an anti-USA perspective
that they fail to see other dangers.
I don't know if that makes one side "more dangerous" than the other, as that's pretty subjective anyway.

They probably see China as the more immediate danger, although it's largely been the U.S. as the world's kingpin of interventionism and military forces all over the world, at least since WW2. Russia tried to compete, but couldn't cut it, while China has been largely a bit player by comparison.

We already have numerous military bases within close proximity to China (in Japan, South Korea, Philippines) and an active naval presence throughout the region. Imagine if the Chinese had bases in Mexico and Canada and had fleets of warships operating along our shores. Americans would be freaking out about it. That's what "more dangerous" looks like.
China apologist, eh.
At least I see both countries as dangerous.
And China looms larger each year.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You doubt that Tibetans & Uighurs see China as
an authoritarian aggressor? Fascinating.

How on Earth did you make that inference from the portion you quoted? Your imagination is the only thing that's fascinating here.

S Vietnam saw the more dangerous side of China
too. That's the point.

That doesn't change the point that was made earlier.

Some people have such an anti-USA perspective
that they fail to see other dangers.

Or maybe some people can see the causes and effects of geopolitics and can see the larger picture, as opposed to the jingoistic and militaristic picture presented by the US government.

Haven't you always complained about American warmongers in the past? And you're unable to recognize the very same rhetoric you're using here which encourages warmongering?

China apologist, eh.
At least I see both countries as dangerous.
And China looms larger each year.

I'm just saying that there are two sides to every story (well, actually more than two, but who's counting). My only real point here is that if we showed ourselves as less dangerous, they might reciprocate. It's better than saber-rattling.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
How on Earth did you make that inference from the portion you quoted? Your imagination is the only thing that's fascinating here.
From your statement...
"Not sure what the Tibetans or Uighurs would say..."
Did I imagine this?
That doesn't change the point that was made earlier.
It balances the possibility that you meant
only the US caused carnage in S Vietnam.
Or maybe some people can see the causes and effects of geopolitics and can see the larger picture, as opposed to the jingoistic and militaristic picture presented by the US government.
The picture is also bigger than anti-Ameristanian polemics.
Haven't you always complained about American warmongers in the past? And you're unable to recognize the very same rhetoric you're using here which encourages warmongering?
This sub-theme in the thread started with my
claim that both China & USA are dangerous.
You seem to be objecting to my including China.
I'm just saying that there are two sides to every story...
Then why argue against my seeing 2 sides?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
From your statement...
"Not sure what the Tibetans or Uighurs would say..."
Did I imagine this?

No, but would they have any basis for comparison? As far as I know, American troops never operated in those regions, so they wouldn't be able to say which is "more dangerous," now would they? Can you say with assurance that these people would see China as "more dangerous" than they were 500-1000 years ago? I can't, which is why I said I wasn't sure. If you're sure enough that you presume to speak for them, go right ahead.

It balances the possibility that you meant
only the US caused carnage in S Vietnam.

I never said that. Obviously, the French and the South Vietnamese government caused a lot of carnage in that country. If you're really looking to blame a communist villain, then you're barking up the wrong tree, since North Vietnam was pro-Soviet. Since then, Vietnam and China have not exactly been good neighbors, so your attempt to paint North Vietnam as a Chinese puppet just doesn't bear out with the facts.

The picture is also bigger than anti-Ameristanian polemics.

The bigger picture shows America is far more militaristic and interventionist, so naturally, the big picture would show America with greater prominence in that regard.

This sub-theme in the thread started with my
claim that both China & USA are dangerous.
You seem to be objecting to my including China.

You seemed to be suggesting that some countries would view China as "more dangerous" or at least as dangerous as the U.S. I disagree with that assessment, even if we take in the limited perspective of the countries you mention.

Subsequently, you said: "Some people have such an anti-USA perspective that they fail to see other dangers."

That's typical American warmongering rhetoric, to talk it up about all the "danger" there is around the world and how all those anti-war "pinkos" and other peaceniks are just to naive (or worse) that they just can't see the "danger" (that all the armchair generals across America can see).

Then why argue against my seeing 2 sides?

Because it's warmongering rhetoric. I'm against that.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
They do know how to defend against hypersonic missiles.
Alas, it's the old MAD strategy. China's missiles are also
defensive. (They know that we & Russians are developing
our own.)
I wonder how this was seen as <funny> by anyone?
Is it not clear that offensive & defensive weapons
can be one & the same?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
So far it is YOUR decision that China will decide to strike first. But you offer no reason why they would follow your suggestion and attack us. What is the plan that supports your belief that China will attack? How does it pay off for China to launch nuclear weapons?


Since the late 1940's, we know. Kennedy got us close to that. Reagan made that ramp up to levels that made many citizens very nervous. Fortunately foreign policy worked it all out. I don't see China any more foolish than Russia was.

It wouldn't surprise me if some American conservatives would opt for a nuclear war over democrats winning more seats in politics.
No. I would honor our commitment to protecting Taiwan. Any war on my part would be defensive, not offensive.

If China dosent attack, neither would I if I was ever a first world leader, so war may never happen if that preferred scenario stays the course.

But I would make sure Communist China knows that a very serious response would be in store if they attack us or our allies.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
No. I would honor our commitment to protecting Taiwan. Any war on my part would be defensive, not offensive.
If you were in charge what would your plan be?

If China dosent attack, neither would I if I was ever a first world leader, so war may never happen if that preferred scenario stays the course.
That didn't stop you from posting a sensationalist title for this thread. Kinda like clickbait.

But I would make sure Communist China knows that a very serious response would be in store if they attack us or our allies.
Yeah, like what? Threaten to start building TVs in the USA and hit them where it hurts? More of trump-stye tariffs that only hurt consumers? A Reagan-like escalation of an arms race that we can't pay for?

Let's hear what a conservative can offer as a solid solution.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
If you were in charge what would your plan be?


That didn't stop you from posting a sensationalist title for this thread. Kinda like clickbait.


Yeah, like what? Threaten to start building TVs in the USA and hit them where it hurts? More of trump-stye tariffs that only hurt consumers? A Reagan-like escalation of an arms race that we can't pay for?

Let's hear what a conservative can offer as a solid solution.

My plan would be what most first world nations do. Communication and logistics support. Diplomacy.

There nothing wrong with pointing out the ambitions of Communist China to take control of Taiwan. That 'click bait' title? No. China is actually becoming more dangerous. It's clearly a progressive arms build up for which some general's are quite astute and have surmised that it's in preparation for an invasion on the Taiwanese mainland.

The solution is quite clear. Warn Communist China. "Don't do it".
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
When you call opposing China's conquest & oppression
"warmongering", this negativity suggests approval.

Approval? Really? No, it's not approval. I just think that whenever people talk about some other nation being "dangerous," it's usually a precursor for some call for some "action" on the part of the U.S.

Regarding the idea of approval, our own government was apparently on board with Chinese conquests and oppression for several decades now, especially back when they were seen as an ally of convenience against the Soviet Union. So, it isn't like all this conquest and oppression happened yesterday.

All this time, the U.S. government has tacitly approved their activities, and it's only now that they suddenly decide that they're "dangerous"? Doesn't that strike you as the least bit odd? Isn't it suspicious that the government and media are stoking up the anti-Chinese and anti-Russian rhetoric these days?

Why have U.S. companies been doing business with them? For the longest time, I kept hearing people turn the blind eye to China, especially during the 1990s and the early 2000s. I didn't approve of them back then either, but I kept noticing a lot of "free market" and "global economy" types who threw caution to the four winds and jumped right into bed with China. All these people were jumping on the "Go China" bandwagon not so long ago.

It's not that I approve of anything China is doing or has done, but I think this kind of saber-rattling rhetoric is, at the very least, outdated and counterproductive.

I also think it's somewhat hypocritical and inconsistent to condemn a country for "conquests and oppression" when our own government is guilty of same. There are many other governments we've supported which have also been oppressive and authoritarian.

Then there are more practical considerations, such as whether or not China represents a direct and immediate threat to the U.S. If they are, then we should stop doing business with them. If we're going to call them "dangerous" while continuing to go on business as usual, then I would say there's something wrong with this picture.

In all honesty, I really don't expect to see a massive Chinese invasion, with hoards of troops pouring onto our shores and occupying our cities and states - now or at any time in the foreseeable future. Just because I say this, it shouldn't be taken to mean "approval" of China.

I just advocate for a sensible and no-nonsense foreign policy, not all this saber-rattling and other bunkum that has nothing to do with America's logical national interests.

In other words, if you're advocating that America's true purpose in this world is to oppose all conquest and oppression (and also that to fail to do so constitutes "approval"), then you're saddling a big responsibility on America's shoulders - something that all those warmongers have done over the years.

Reminds me back in 2003, some guy was a war hawk, fully in support of the U.S. invasion. He didn't care much about WMDs, but he just thought the "Arabs should have to pay" for 9/11. He didn't seem to care about which countries were which, as it was just one big amorphous mass in his eyes. It didn't really matter that Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. Towards the end, he was talking about how Saddam's regime tortured women and children, which was true. He said, "So, you're in favor of torturing women and children? We've got to bomb them back to the Stone Age NOW!"

I recognize the rhetoric of warmongers. I've been exposed to it for a long time now, so I know when I see it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Approval? Really? No, it's not approval. I just think that whenever people talk about some other nation being "dangerous," it's usually a precursor for some call for some "action" on the part of the U.S.
When I criticized PRC's conquest & oppression, you
called it "warmongering". I didn't & don't call for US
aggression. Why falsely presume I would?
Defending the PRC's brutality seems a clear answer.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
No. I would honor our commitment to protecting Taiwan. Any war on my part would be defensive, not offensive.

If China dosent attack, neither would I if I was ever a first world leader, so war may never happen if that preferred scenario stays the course.

But I would make sure Communist China knows that a very serious response would be in store if they attack us or our allies.

We do have a commitment to protect Taiwan which has remained in place since 1949. The Chinese were in a state of civil war, and we continued to recognize the Nationalist Chinese government which fled to Taiwan, while considering the Red Chinese government as some kind of outlaw state. At least until Nixon decided to recognize Communist China under Mao, which simultaneously meant ending our diplomatic recognition of Taiwan.

We still maintained our commitment to Taiwan, and likewise, the Mainland Chinese government never tested that commitment. It's been a standoff lasting more than 70 years now. You'd think that the Chinese would have given it up by now, but they seem to be obsessed over this lingering "loose end" from the past. But they're not that crazy, either, since they're not willing to engage in all-out warfare over Taiwan.

Besides, I don't think Taiwan would go that easily. They're not weak. They would certainly lose if China did attack, but they might give them a bloody nose or two along the way.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
When I criticized PRC's conquest & oppression, you
called it "warmongering". I didn't & don't call for US
aggression. Why falsely presume I would?
Defending the PRC's brutality seems a clear answer.

I think I originally took issue with the claim of China being "more dangerous." We were comparing levels of geopolitical danger caused by America vs. China. You suggested that pointing out pertinent facts regarding the actions of U.S. - and how they might be perceived as "dangerous" from the perspective of other nations - is somehow an "anti-US" viewpoint and somehow constitutes "approval" of the PRC's actions.

If you say that you're not calling for US aggression, then I believe you. But I'm still pointing out, for the record, that the kind of rhetoric and line of argumentation you're currently using against me is that of warmongers I've known and heard all my life. That doesn't mean that YOU are necessarily a warmonger, but I just wonder why you're using this line of argumentation. This is the kind of thinking which justifies and leads to warmongering.

I remember in past discussions, you've said that the voters choose the politicians who are warmongers. Assuming that's true, then it seems worthwhile to look at the kinds of ideas and rhetorical methods which are used which encourage and bring about the kind of warmongering attitude we both apparently disdain.

It was a common tactic back in the day. Anyone who questioned US military involvement was deemed a "pinko" and considered a "traitor," "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." That was wrong back then, and it's just as wrong now. Questioning US military activities is every citizen's right, and that, in and of itself, should never be interpreted as "treasonous" or "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." It certainly doesn't mean that I approve of anything they do.

In short, I can't control what the Chinese government does, but I do believe I have some say (however small) in what our own government does. I don't like what the Chinese government does in terms of its brutality and treatment of its citizens. I haven't defended any of that.

What are you actually proposing? Should we continue the rhetoric and call them "very bad people," like some toothless old grishnar cat? Should we be prepared to do something about it beyond just talk? We're past the point where we can rail against them over "conquests and oppression," since our government has already given tacit approval to that these past several decades.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think I originally took issue with the claim of China being "more dangerous."
Notice how you deal with your mistaken inference
rather than a specific post of mine? That's where
you go off the rails. So no point reading the rest.
Nothing to discuss.
 
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