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Children of God

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Polaris, May 30, 2007.

  1. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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    This makes me feel sick. You have pulled the rug from under the feet of the scripture, attempting to undermine the Word of God at it's root. You ought to be ashamed, how can you say such things? You have been given a postion as a minister of God yet you attempt to undermine Him, you should tremble at attempting to teach people such things.
    You have turned the bible on it's head, here you make God our enemy because He attempts to withold us from the progression which is for our benefit because He commands not to eat of the tree, you make the serpent the hero because though he beguiles eve into disobeying God that was what we really needed to attain wisdom.
    You interpret the serpent not by looking elsewhere in Gods (and the fact that he encourages disobedience to Gods commands) word but to ancient symbols as though it is the ancients who have the treasury of knowledge and not the word of God.

    James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
     
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  2. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    What? So our spirits are somehow formed during the procreative process between a mortal man and woman? I have a hard time believing there is any Biblical support for that. The fact that the Bible proclaims God as Father of our spirits sure indicates at some point we were born/created of Him. Metaphorically speaking we become new creatures when we receive his Holy Spirit, but our spirits had to be formed/born initially by God at some point for us to exist in the first place.

    This is the crux of our disagreement -- how and when our spirits were formed. So you believe the following (correct me if I'm wrong):
    - our spirits are formed at the same time as our mortal bodies
    - our spirits are formed as part of the mortal procreative process and inherit mortal weaknesses and sin

    What is the scriptural evidence for your position on this?


    No, because you are misinterpreting both me and the bible. We are the spirit children of God, our mortal bodies on the other hand are created through the procreative process and come with weaknesses, limitations, and tendencies towards sin. It is by our mortal nature that we are "children of wrath". It is in the spiritual that we are children of God.

    No, because our spirits are born directly descendent from God, they are born innocent. As we are born into mortality we inherit the weaknesses of mortal physical beings. Physical death came through Adam's transgression, it doesn't come through our individual sins, spiritual death does (spiritual death meaning being cut off from the influence of the Holy Spirit).

    Christ was perfectly sinless, yet he experienced physical death.
     
  3. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  4. PHOTOTAKER

    PHOTOTAKER Well-Known Member

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    jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee...

    formed would be before procreation of two humans so this would mean that we existed as spirits or in some form before we came to the earth...

    psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    this passages clearly give the answer that we are children of God and therefore airs to the kingdom of God and joint airs with Christ...

    ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    i love this passage first we come from the dust and then we return because we come from the dust; now this next part is interesting we "return" to God but if we as you say are formed in the belly then how do we return to somewhere if we were never been there in the first place? the answer that we cannot we would of had to come from heaven in order to return to heaven. the dust return to the dust and the spirits return to heaven and to God which is our father...
     
  5. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    This is a fine example of how paying just a little attention to the words in a passage will reveal quite a bit of meaning instead of just projecting what we think into the meaning.
     
  6. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  7. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, our spirits did not 'pre-exist' before our bodies, we became a living soul at conception. Jesus is the only-begotton Son of God, who was with God and is God and is from everlasting to everlasting. Satan is not a spirit brother of Jesus, for Jesus is the only begotten, Satan is a fallen angel, a created being, like the other angels,like humans are created beings, not a begotten Son. We are born children of darkness and re-born when we trust Christ as Children of Light, adopted sons of God, adopted, not begotten, there is only one only begotten.
     
  8. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    The scriptures say they when we die, our spirit "returns" to God. Can you tell me how a spirit could "return" to someplace it has never been before?

    Nobody's arguing that point.

    Does this have anything to do with the OP?

    Speak for yourself, Mike. I was born as a daughter of my Heavenly Father, who is the father of my eternal spirit.
     
  9. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Hey, Kat, I think it can be interpreted that we return to the one who created us through Adam in the first place also. When we were born we inherited the sin-nature, the fallen nature of Adam, for I believe Adam was immortal when he was created, but that when he sinned he died spiritualy toward God and began to die physically, too. So we were born mortal in a fallen world with a sin-nature, unlike Jesus who was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not of man so He did not inherit the sin-nature.

    Romans 5
    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
    11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
    12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    --------------------------------------------------

    We were once children of darkness or wrath bor disobedience, but now are children of light through Jesus:

    Ephesians 5:8
    For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    1 Thessalonians 5:5
    Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness
    Ephesians 2:3
    Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    Ephesians 5:6
    Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
    Colossians 3:6
    For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
    ----------------------------------------------

    If we were once children of wrath, disobedience, and darkness, we weren't God's children but belonged to the kingdom of darkness before we trusted Christ.

    Acts 26:18
    To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
    Romans 2:19
    And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
    Romans 13:12
    The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
    1 Corinthians 4:5
    Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
    1 2 Corinthians 4:6
    For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
    2 Corinthians 6:14
    Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
    Ephesians 5:8
    For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    Ephesians 5:11
    And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
    Ephesians 6:12
    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
    Colossians 1:13
    Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    1 Thessalonians 5:4
    But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    1 Thessalonians 5:5
    Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
    1 Peter 2:9
    But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
    1 John 1:5
    This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
     
  10. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    I fail to see how that explains how our spirits "return" to the God who gave it life. As Katzpur said, "return" requires that we were once already with God. How can our spirit "return" to God if it was never with Him in the first place?

    Another example from the scriptures helps to make the point. In St. John 9:2-3 Christ's disciples asked him concerning a blind man: "who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him".

    The very premise of this question requires pre-birth life and even the ability to make choices before birth. Interestingly Christ didn't correct them on this premise, most likely because correction wasn't necessary. We, as spirits begotten of God, lived before our birth and had the ability to make choices. Therefore it makes perfect sense for our spirits to be able to "return" to the God who gave them life.
     
  11. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    Two problems with your argument:

    1. We don't know which portions of the text, if any, were direct quotes from "your own poets".
    2. Even if the entire passage was a quote from their poets, it makes no sense to believe that Paul would use them to support his argument if they were based on false teachings. The fact that Paul used the statement in support of his argument is evidence enough to me that it is based on truth.
     
  12. Vassal

    Vassal Member

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    If Jesus is only only begotten son of God, then how can everyone else also be begotten of God as you so claim?
     
  13. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    We believe Jesus to be the only-begotten in the flesh.
     
  14. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 5:8
    For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    Ephesians 2:3
    Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    Acts 26:18
    To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
    Ephesians 5:8
    For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
    Colossians 1:13
    Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
    1 Peter 2:9
    But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

    Did you read these scriptures? We were born children of darkness, not children of light or God. The verses you mention have nothing to do with a 'pre-existing' spirit, rather the question of the curse earthly sins of parents passed to their children. We were given life from God through Adam, when God formed him of the dust of the earth and then breathed life into him, (no mention of a pre-existing spirit), thus the breath of life was passed down to all humans through procreation. God gave us life through Adam and we will return to God from whom life came through Adam. God has only one Son, Jesus who was with God and who is God from everlasting. Satan is not a 'son' of God, but a created being, an angel, just as we are created beings, humans, by the breath of God breathed into Adam and passed down to us. Again, the Bible is VERY clear we are children of wrath, children of disobedience, and children of darkness translated into the children of light, into the kingdom of light, adopted as sons, not born as sons but rather as sinners, enemies at enmity with God. We are only made heirs of God by trusting in Jesus who was with God and who is God, God the Son. Three in one and one in three and the one in the middle died for me.
     
  15. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Nobody have anything to say about that ^^?
     
  16. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    Yep, and none of them say that we were "born" children of darkness.

    Granted, when we are born into mortality we are born into a fallen mortal state in which we are susceptible and bound to commit sin. In that sense, by our mortal nature we are "children of wrath". That doesn't deny the fact however that we are spiritually born of God in complete innocence.

    Sure it does:

    "Who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?" They specifically asked if the sin of "this man" was the cause of his born blindness. That clearly suggests some state of pre-born existance in which the man had the ability to make choices.

    Right, it doesn't say anyting about the pre-earth existance period. It's specifically an account of the physical creation.

    We can only "return" to God if we've already been there.

    Right, one Son in the flesh.
     
  17. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Polaris we obviously believe very different things. I believe people are born with Adam's sin-nature and spiritually dead toward God until we are 'quickened'--made alive spiritually when we are born again when we first trusted Christ. We were children of wrath, children of disobedience and children of darkness, NOT children of light or of God UNTIL we were saved. You say Jesus was 'one son in the flesh', but if you believe we were 'spirit babies' are we not 'in the flesh' right at this moment making us sons of God? I do not believe we were born sons of God, only Jesus was. We believe very differently, and I do not think that will change.
    Peace,
    Mike
     
  18. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    To a large extent I agree with you here. As we are born into this fallen mortal state, we become naturally sinful and therefore spiritually dead. You're right that we become alive in Christ when we are spiritually reborn. However none of that denies the fact that we existed before we were born, as spirit children of God, and that we were born as such in innocence.

    We are all spirit children of God. Only Christ was begotten of Him in the flesh, only Christ can claim the Father as his direct physical father.

    That's fine. All I'm saying is that the scriptures actually mean it when they refer to us as the children/offspring of God, and that scriptural evidence supports the LDS belief in a spiritual pre-earth existance.
     
  19. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Okay, well I understand we believe somewhat the same but not exactly, so I respect that. My scriptures say that Mary concieved by the Holy Ghost, nowhere by a physical Father God. So I don't agree there. And of course I do not believe we pre-existed outside our body or were God's spirit babies or children, those are strictly Mormon beliefs, that is,as far as the realm of Christendom goes.
    Mike
     
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