Children of God

[Polaris]

Where does the Bible differentiate this "covenant sense" from the literal one or any other one? I thought we were letting the verses speak for themselves here, but suddenly you're inserting a "covenant sense" into the "plainness" of the passages about our adoption as sons.

Look at the two verses I reference in my opening post:

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father" (Romans 8:14-15).

This is clearly referring to God being the Father in some metaphorical and conditional context - we become adopted into the "family" of God dependent on our faithfulness to Him. (This is what I was referring to by "covenant sense").

Then there's the passage in Acts 17 in which Paul declares all men to be the offspring of God, even those who worship false gods. Therein lies the differentiation.

You're going to have to explain how "offspring" there means "literal spirit children." In 1 Cor. 8:6, we see that the God is the "Father" of all things in some sense.

What does "offspring" mean? Being the offspring of God implies much more than merely being the creation of God.

 

[Polaris]

I am not taking it in a metaphorical sense at all. We are literal the offspring of God because we are his creation and we are literally his children because we all share in His divinity through the incarnation of Jesus. There is nothing metaphorical about that.

Sure you are. "Offspring" is not equal to "creation". You are making a metaphorical connection there. The non-metaphorical (ie literal) intepretation would suggest that we are actually the offspring of God (not merely His creation).

 

[Polaris]

All who have saving faith in Christ are adopted into God's family, calling Him Abba Father. All who does not have saving faith in Christ are not adopted into the family of God.

So why did Paul include the men of Athens among the "offspring of God"? They didn't have faith in Christ - they worshipped false gods, yet Paul spoke to them as "offspring of God".

I also believe your answer appears to fall outside of Roman Catholic teaching.

That should come as no surprise... I'm not Roman Catholic.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So why did Paul include the men of Athens among the "offspring of God"? They didn't have faith in Christ - they worshipped false gods, yet Paul spoke to them as "offspring of God".

Paul didn't -- Luke did. He's using the quote to convince the audience that they are indeed not children of God because they don't believe in Christ. He is urging his audience to turn to Christ and be who one of their poets claimed that they already are. You've missed the point of this passage entirely.

 

[Polaris]

Paul didn't -- Luke did. He's using the quote to convince the audience that they are indeed not children of God because they don't believe in Christ. He is urging his audience to turn to Christ and be who one of their poets claimed that they already are. You've missed the point of this passage entirely.

Actually it was Paul:

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said..."

How exactly am I misinterpreting this:

"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold"

It seems quite straightforward to me - because we are the offspring of God we shouldn't treat God like gold and trust in the devices of men.

Sure he's urging them to turn to Christ. But here he's specifically urging them to turn from worshipping idols and he uses the fact that we are all God's offspring to strengthen his argument.

 

[Special Revelation]

Actually it was Paul:

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said..."

How exactly am I misinterpreting this:

"Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold"

It seems quite straightforward to me - because we are the offspring of God we shouldn't treat God like gold and trust in the devices of men.

Sure he's urging them to turn to Christ. But here he's specifically urging them to turn from worshipping idols and he uses the fact that we are all God's offspring to strengthen his argument.

It appears you are trying to interpret Acts 17 apart from the rest of the Bible. How can you interpret Acts 17 apart from the doctrine of adoption and Sonship?

 

[Polaris]

It appears you are trying to interpret Acts 17 apart from the rest of the Bible. How can you interpret Acts 17 apart from the doctrine of adoption and Sonship?

They are two separate and distinct doctrines. The doctrine of adoption pertains the the faithful in a metaphorical context - the faithful become adopted members of the metaphorical family of God.

The doctrine of God as our Father is literal and pertains to all men - we are all the offspring/children of God. Acts 17 clearly declares that, and it's not the only passage that does so:

"all of you are children of the most High" (Psalms 82:6).

"Have we not all one father?" (Malachi 2:10).

"One God and Father of all" (Ephesians 4:6)

I could go on but I think you get the point. I'm not interpreting Acts 17 from the rest of the bible, I'm simply reading what is clearly stated there, and there are supporting passages throughout the Bible.

 

[Super Universe]

We are a fragment of God energy. We are the soul, not the body. The body is made of matter (conserved and active form) which is what higher dimensional energy condenses into when it comes into our dimension.

Refering to us as His children is simply the best way for us to understand it.

We separate from God and go out to experience the universe. We are born without experience. We are immature and unaware of the consequences of action and inaction but there is nothing that can truly harm us because we are God energy.

We then choose to join with biologics to gain experience, to gain a personality. Upon death of the biologic we then either choose to fuse with a personality or not. If not, the personality ceases to exist. We then try again until we have formed a complex personality that we are happy with and become a mature universal being.

 

[Polaris]

We are a fragment of God energy. We are the soul, not the body. The body is made of matter (conserved and active form) which is what higher dimensional energy condenses into when it comes into our dimension.

Can you provide Biblical support for any of that? (Remember this is a Biblical Debates forum)

 

[Special Revelation]

They are two separate and distinct doctrines. The doctrine of adoption pertains the the faithful in a metaphorical context - the faithful become adopted members of the metaphorical family of God.

The doctrine of God as our Father is literal and pertains to all men - we are all the offspring/children of God. Acts 17 clearly declares that, and it's not the only passage that does so:

"all of you are children of the most High" (Psalms 82:6).

"Have we not all one father?" (Malachi 2:10).

"One God and Father of all" (Ephesians 4:6)

I could go on but I think you get the point. I'm not interpreting Acts 17 from the rest of the bible, I'm simply reading what is clearly stated there, and there are supporting passages throughout the Bible.

Do you understand that you are interpreting within the context of LDS theology as compared to biblical theology? If I understand LDS theology, you believe everyone is a child of God, correct?

 

[*Paul*]

This verse gives me no doctrinal problems or dilemas.
God is the Father of our Spirits,
Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Adam is the Father of our flesh for we are all descended from him yet we are born spiritually dead in adam so it cannot mean that we are the directly spiritually begotten children of God by nature because if we were we would would not inherit the consequences of adams fall and God does not create us dead in sin as that would be contrary to His Holy Nature.

Adam is called the son of God:

Luke 3:37-38 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan, Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

In what way is Adam God's son? Genesis tells us.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
God formed His flesh out of the ground by creation and breathed life into adams nostrils.
This breath into Adam came directly from within God and gave him life, Adam became a living soul. Out of this now living flesh with life from God in it God made woman.
Every child that has ever come into the world has been an offspring of Adam and caught this breath of life first given to man directly from God, we are living souls because of this breath that first came from within God and are like many candles first lit from One Flame.
So we are all sons of Adam and the offspring of God according by the life that is in us. But we are children of wrath by nature because of the consqeences of the Fall of Adam which passed upon all men. This is the only way we can be both the offspring of God and also children of wrath and disobedience.

Ephesians 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[Polaris]

Do you understand that you are interpreting within the context of LDS theology as compared to biblical theology? If I understand LDS theology, you believe everyone is a child of God, correct?

Actually in this case I'm just reading the verse and taking Paul at his word (though I believe we all are influenced by our religious beliefs when it comes to scriptural interpretation).

I'm curious though, what you mean by biblical theology, do you mean Roman Catholic theology, or evangelical theology. In truth there is no standard biblical theology. The bible is a text that is subject to interpretation.

And yes, according to LDS theology we believe that all men are the children of God, and the Apostle Paul seems to agree.

 

[Special Revelation]

Actually in this case I'm just reading the verse and taking Paul at his word (though I believe we all are influenced by our religious beliefs when it comes to scriptural interpretation).

I'm curious though, what you mean by biblical theology, do you mean Roman Catholic theology, or evangelical theology. In truth there is no standard biblical theology. The bible is a text that is subject to interpretation.

And yes, according to LDS theology we believe that all men are the children of God, and the Apostle Paul seems to agree.

Bible = Final Authority as Truth from God

 

[Polaris]

Adam is the Father of our flesh for we are all descended from him yet we are born spiritually dead in adam so it cannot mean that we are the directly spiritually begotten children of God by nature because if we were we would would not inherit the consequences of adams fall and God does not create us dead in sin as that would be contrary to His Holy Nature.

We are not born dead in sin, we are born innocent, though we become susceptible to temptation and fall into sin. God is the Father of our spirits. Our spirits were born pure and innocent. When we are physically born into mortality, it is true we are born into a state fallen away from the presence of God, but we are nonetheless born innocent. To suggest that a newborn is dead in sin, or is somehow accoutable for Adam's transgression makes absolutely no sense.

God formed His flesh out of the ground by creation and breathed life into adams nostrils.
This breath into Adam came directly from within God and gave him life, Adam became a living soul. Out of this now living flesh with life from God in it God made woman.
Every child that has ever come into the world has been an offspring of Adam and caught this breath of life first given to man directly from God, we are living souls because of this breath that first came from within God and are like many candles first lit from One Flame.
So we are all sons of Adam and the offspring of God according by the life that is in us. But we are children of wrath by nature because of the consqeences of the Fall of Adam which passed upon all men. This is the only way we can be both the offspring of God and also children of wrath and disobedience.

So we're not really the offspring of God, we're simply recipients of divine suscitation?

I disagree. We are literally the spirit children of God -- we actually are His offspring -- and we become metaphorical children of disobedience as we disobey the commands of God.

 

[Polaris]

Bible = Final Authority as Truth from God

Then my posts must represent the truth -- I have provided biblical support for my arguments.

 

[Special Revelation]

We are not born dead in sin, we are born innocent, though we become susceptible to temptation and fall into sin. God is the Father of our spirits. Our spirits were born pure and innocent. When we are physically born into mortality, it is true we are born into a state fallen away from the presence of God, but we are nonetheless born innocent. To suggest that a newborn is dead in sin, or is somehow accoutable for Adam's transgression makes absolutely no sense.



So we're not really the offspring of God, we're simply recipients of divine suscitation?

I disagree. We are literally the spirit children of God -- we actually are His offspring -- and we become metaphorical children of disobedience as we disobey the commands of God.

1. Epheisans 2:1
   [ Made Alive in Christ ] As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
   
   Colossians 2:3
2. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, [Or your flesh] God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

 

[Super Universe]

Can you provide Biblical support for any of that? (Remember this is a Biblical Debates forum)

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It's all freely available here:

http://www.urantia.org/papers/index.html

And more advanced theory here:

http://www.wingmakers.com/

Enjoy!

 

[Polaris]

1. Epheisans 2:1
   [ Made Alive in Christ ] As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
   
   Colossians 2:3
2. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, [Or your flesh] God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Paul is talking to grown men and women here, he's not talking to newborns. Newborns have no sins.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Actually it was Paul:

"Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said..."

Because Luke says that Paul said this does not mean that Paul did in fact say it. Luke is the author, not Paul, and there is no parallel to this anywhere in Paul's writings.

 

[Polaris]

Because Luke says that Paul said this does not mean that Paul did in fact say it. Luke is the author, not Paul, and there is no parallel to this anywhere in Paul's writings.

So either Luke is lying or was mistaken?

How then can we trust any scripture?